Talk:East End Park (Cincinnati)

Merge

It looks like the preferred name of this park was Recreation Park Pendleton Park, which had an article started as well. No need for two.Neonblak ^talk - 04:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Recreation Park was actually in Columbus. East End Park was in Cincinnati.... :-)

Please don't merge my article......I would rather not......I wrote this article to properly list the name of the ballpark not to have it merged with the incorrectly named article Pendleton Park..... This ballpark was referred to as East End Park when major league baseball was being played in it not Pendleton Park. I have newspaper clippings after newspaper clippings from 1891 that refer to it as "the East End Park". If anything Pendleton Park should be redirected to East End Park (Cincinnati). If that isn't an option, then that is okay but please do not merge my work with another article that is incorrect. I'd rather just have my article deleted all together then have it listed incorrectly under Pendleton Park...:-( ^talk - 01:29, 26 April 2009

Umm... Not sure how I mixed that up... Pendleton Park is the reason I began the merge discussion. The points you brought up about newspaper articles from the day are significant, I don't see any problem with merging the other article into this one even without them. Retrosheet has it as Pendleton Park first, with a mention that East End Park as an AKA, while baseball-reference lists it only as East End Park, so it is a wash as far as I am concerned.Neonblak ^talk - 09:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it.

This ballpark and the club that played in it have had an identity crisis for years. For the ballpark, somewhere down the line the name Pendleton Park was picked up by baseball historians. I think this is the case because years after major league baseball left the building the ballpark took on the name Pendleton Park. My grandmother lived down in that area and she told me the she use to "go and play at Pendleton Park". This was during the 1910's. But when major league baseball was being played in the ballpark during the 1891 season the building was consistantly called the East End Park in newspaper clippings.

When I began my extensive research on the team that played in it I found two things that where incorrectly listed in baseball references.......The name of the ballpark which I already discussed and the club name. The club name was not the Kelly's Killers but the REDS ? These two discoveries flipped everything on it's back that had been known about the team.

The club was consistantly called the Reds in the local newspapers. This shocked me and I didn't know what to think. The club had the same uniforms as their cross town rival Reds that played in the National League so maybe that is why they called them the Reds also. I only saw a couple of references to the Kelly's Killers in articles and the article would mention it casually to add color to their writting. For example the writer would say something to the effect - "The Reds of the Association are playing down at the East End Park and Mike Kelly's "killers" are up for the challange"....No different then a modern reporter referring to the current Cincinnati Reds as Dusty Bakers "killers".

Newspapers also referred to the club as Mike Kelly's "hustlers", Mike Kelly's "braves", Mike Kelly's "warriors" and Mike Kelly's "wonders".......Somewhere down the line some historians started calling the club the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers. Maybe to avoid confussion with the National League Reds...However, other historians call the club by the correct name. The book Year by Year and Day by Day with the St. Louis Cardinals Since 1882 refer to the club as the Reds when covering the 1891 Cardinals season.

This team was a one-year-wonder and I think I am the only person to really dive into researching the team. I did so because I had four generations of family that lived down in that area of Cincinnati so I developed a passion for the major league baseball team that once played in East End. I really doubt that anyone else out there has ever done extensive research on the team and most sources simply have gone with what little information is out there. Much of the information out there has been incorrect. I guess I am trying to set the record straight now...:-) I plan to expand my article that I began. Cincinnati Reds (American Association - 1891) ^talk - 12:50, 26 April 2009

I wouldn't have a problem with the changes to the Kelly's Killers official name, King Kelly's name, etc, as long as people site the sources. I changed Mike Kelly's name back to King Kelly because it is apparent that everyone knows him as King Kelly today. He has been my entire life, but I'm certain that wasn't necessarily so in his playing days. I believe you when you say that you have done extensive research, but if no other sources are mentioned, I (and everyone else editing these articles) have to go with what's available online, namely Retrosheet and baseball-reference. Since I have such a reverance for 19th century baseball, I want them to be as accurate as possible, and welcome your contributions. I just hope you still access to all of those old newspaper articles, because they would be a great primary source.Neonblak ^talk - 05:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have copies of all of the newspaper clippings and what I have been doing is composing my own game summaries of the team using old newspaper accounts. You should go to this link and see what I have done thus far... http://www.scsr.org/Baseball/Reds-4/SBS/1891/Schedule.htm

I hope the organization that I am trying to get off of the ground (Society for Cincinnati Sports Research) will eventually be trusted enough to use as a source for stuff such as this..

I almost wish the team was actually called the Kelly's Killers and the ballpark was in fact called Pendleton Park...It sure would make it easy for me....

I have such a soft spot for this team. They are a forgotten major league gem......King Kelly was great. Everything he touched was entertaining....

I too have an interest in 19th century baseball. Right now I am working on the Cincinnati Reds (1876-1880) team for my website. Look here - http://www.scsr.org/Baseball/Reds-2/Home.htm . This was the first major league team King Kelly played for. He played for the 1878-79 clubs....What a character.

^{User talk:SCSRdotorg} - 23:34, 30 April 2009

MERGING TALK FROM PENDLETON PARK PAGE Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

Merge ? Oh please don't do that......I would rather not......I wrote this article East End Park (Cincinnati)to properly list the name of the ballpark not to have it merged with the incorrectly named article Pendleton Park. This ballpark was referred to as East End Park when major league baseball was being played in it not Pendleton Park. I have newspaper clippings after newspaper clippings from 1891 that refer to it as "the East End Park". If anything Pendleton Park should be redirected to East End Park (Cincinnati). If that isn't an option, then that is okay but please do not merge my work with another artcile that is incorrect. I'd rather just have my article deleted all together then have it listed incorrectly under Pendleton Park...:-( ^talk - 01:29, 26 April 2009

In which case, perhaps you should have moved the existing Pendleton Park article here and updated it instead of creating a parallel article. Bad form. Either way, the two have to be merged in some way now. -Dewelar (talk) 04:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Then if you could just delete my East End Park article altogether. I'd rather not have my research and information merged into an article that is incorrect. I'd rather it just be deleted. Sorry for the hassle :-(

If my article was merged with the incorrect listing of the park, then I'm just going to delete the information that I researched and wrote anyway. SCSRdotorg

When entities have had multiple names, they are typically listed under their most recent name. An example would be Navin Field, which redirects to Tiger Stadium. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs is right on this one. What do you people not understand about that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Horneldinkrag (talk • contribs) 14:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand fully .

The difference here is that when major league baseball was being played in this park for one year (1891), it was called East End Park. The name Pendleton Park came years after major league ball left the building. It isn't like Crosley Field where the Cincinnati Reds played in the park when it was called Redland Field and then later renamed Crosley. If anything Pendleton Park should be redirected to East End Park. I have scores of articles from 1891 that back up the name.

If you want to redirect the name East End Park to Pendleton Park then there is nothing I can do about it but please do not merge my article with Pendleton Park. Just delete it completely and i won't bother Wikipedia about this again. I really don't want my research merged with an incorrect article. SCSRdotorg —Preceding undated comment added 00:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC).

There are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, there is no ownership of articles in Wikipedia. When you write an article here, you automatically give up any claim on it. Second, I can see your argument about having the primary article be East End Park, and to merge any extra details from this one into that one. My reasoning on that is that the notability of the park is elevated for its one season of major league ball. I might make a comparison with Sportsman's Park in St. Louis, which is most notable for being the home of the Cardinals, not for being the Boys Club since then. However, that is a flawed comparison, because Sportsman's Park was a major league park off and on for nearly a century, while East End Park was used for MLB for only one season. And the park itself still exists, and has been known as Pendleton Park for most of its existence the last century. So it is arguably much better known as Pendleton Park. So I would be inclined to merge your information into the Pendleton Park article and make East End Park a redirect - but with a clear demarcation between the two, thus preserving your research. I do not see any point in having two separate articles, because there just is not enough information to justify it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, open mouth and insert foot. It was only known as Pendleton Grounds for a short time. It is best known as the Schmidt Recreation Center, and I might now argue that THAT is where this article needs to be. This is getting confusing. Can you cite some reliable sources on just what time periods this venue was called (1) East End Park (2) Pendleton Park (3) Cincinnati Gym Grounds and (4) current name? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey Baseball Bug I do appreciate you hearing me out on this. I have newspaper articles from 1891 that call it East End Park. I can e-mail them to you.

The actual ballpark is no longer there. The park was torn down years ago and I have yet to uncover when. However, I think it has been gone for at least 75 years. The ballpark was built inside a recreation area called the Cincinnati Gym Grounds. Those grounds I believe were later renamed the Schmidt Recreation Center.

There are currently two little league baseball diamonds that were built years later on top of the old location of East End Park/Pendleton Park and has nothing to do with the EEP/PP. So if there is an article on the Schmidt Recreation Center, it should be totally seperate. The East End Park/Pendleton Park were built inside the Cincinnati Gym Grounds/Schmidt Recreation Center.

Go here and see some of the photos I have from then and now. http://www.scsr.org/Venues/EastEndPark/Home.htm . This is my website.

While I certainly understand why Pendleton Park would be the front runner of names to be used for the park. Even though it was called that years after major league ball left, the Pendleton Park article doesn't talk about the park other then the time it was being used for major league baseball. If the article was expanded on its use years after the Kelly's Killers vacated the park then I would agree with you. But the Pendleton Park article only talks about its use as a major league park. Thus the article should be titled by the name that it was called during the time when the Kelly's Killers played there.

And truth be told, the team wasn't called the Kelly's Killers or Porkers as so many references have them listed as....They were called the Reds. Team nicknames were not official back then and all of the newspaper clippings I have of the team refers to both the National League Reds as such and Mike Kelly's team in the American Association as "the Reds"..Two Reds teams in one year....But I really have no passion to debate the team nickname being incorrect also...lol However, I've been discussing all of my findings with Retrosheet.

When I did my research on this club, everything everyone knows about this club was completely flipped upside down. Since this club was a total blip on the radar screen of MLB history, I really think I have been the only person to totally dive in and research this club. Most people could care less about this team and you know how it is, all it takes is one person to put out bad information and everyone just uses it because they have no desire to research a club like this on their own.

I'm one of those guys who is more interested in history that no one cares about. Plus I have very deep family roots in the East End area of Cincinnati. My grandma use to go down to EEP/PP when she was a kid and play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SCSRdotorg (talk • contribs) 05:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The article you cite does not adequately explain the distinction between "Pendleton Grounds" and "East End Park". Perhaps you can explain? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Article ? What article are you referring to ? Are you talking about my website that I referred you to ?

The name Pendleton I believe comes from an area of East End called "Pendleton". Cincinnati Gym Grounds and ballyard were located in an that area of East End. So the Cincinnati Gym Ground sometimes was referred to as the Pendleton grounds. Let me check into this however. I am not an expert on the actual Cincinnati grounds. Only the ballpark itself that was located within in. We are starting to go way off course here.

Remember, I can send articles from 1891 to you that call it East End Park...Just tell me where to send them ?

I'm talking about this article [1] which you referred to in your previous entry. It includes the following statements:

"East End Park only played host to professional ball for one season"
"This Reds team's ballpark was located at the Pendleton Grounds"
"the Reds settled for the romantic setting of Pendleton Grounds"
"The ballpark was built in the northwest corner of the East End Grounds"
"C.L. Harrison Field is located where the grandstand & baseball diamond once were located"
Do you see why I'm confused? Please define precisely what is meant by "Pendleton Grounds" and "East End Park". The article makes it seem like Pendleton Grounds was a larger area that contained East End Park as a subset, and that East End Park was a larger area that contained the actual ballpark as a subset.
Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, regardless of what the article is called, I think the continuity from the 1890s to the present day is significant. There aren't that many ballparks from the 1890s that still feature a diamond of some kind in pretty much the same spot. In fact, the only other one that comes to mind is League Park in Cleveland. Sportsman's Park in St. Louis used to be that way, but the diamond is no longer there. Likewise with Braves Field / Nickerson Field. The latter are separate articles because there is plenty of material for each. In the case of this ballpark, there really isn't a lot of material. Whatever you call the article, you should try to contain its full known history in a single article, with section headers describing the different names. One thing that works against East End Park is that you have to disambiguate it, and it's preferable not to have to disambiguate a main article. They did that with Tiger Stadium (Detroit) after it was abandoned, but only because Tiger Stadium is the active home of the LSU football team. Likewise with East End Park, which is an active sports venue somewhere. So the parenthetic East End Park (Cincinnati) is not a big deal, except it needs to be locatable when you click on the current East End Park. I would say the main article could be East End Park (Cincinnati), with the other names redirecting to it. That would include Pendleton Park, Pendleton Grounds, Cincinnati Gym Grounds, Association Park (Cincinnati), C.L. Harrison Field, Schmidt Recreation Center, and anything else you can think of. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and obviously link to your page if you're not already doing so in the article. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Which I have now done. That part was easy. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The main contributor and I had a discussion about this subject on the East End Park talk page, and I was fine with either one being the main article, but there was no need for two. But with this current discussion, I am now also confused. Was it the same ballpark structure, and just renamed to Pendleton Park? If so, I would side with the East End Park name, as the research by SCSR suggests that was what the park was referred to as during the time period it was used as a Major League park. Both online sources, retrosheet and baseball-reference, seem to be slightly pointed to East End Park (both mention the name).Neonblak ^talk - 17:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1891 season

I was looking at retrosheet, and it's interesting to kind of see how this went down. The club was playing at St. Louis in mid-August when they switched from being Cincinnati to being Milwaukee. They had played what would prove to be their final game in Cincy on Thursday the 13th, and spent the 14th heading for St. Louis to face the Browns. They had games there on Saturday the 15th and Sunday the 16th. At that point they were 43-57. On Monday the 17th they didn't play, and maybe that's when they decided to throw in the towel as far as Cincy was concerned. On Tuesday the 18th, they were now the Milwaukee club, and finished their series in St. Louis and moved on. They didn't actually play a home game until September 10, where they had an auspicious debut against Washington, winning 30-3. They played the entire rest of the season at home, probably with the idea of trying to generate some revenue (supposedly they had one home game in Minneapolis, but I wonder if that's a mistake). They went 16-5 during that stretch, with an overall record of 21-15 as Milwaukee. Not too shabby. as Cincinnati as Milwaukee Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Summary of facts

OK, here's how I see this, and I think this info should be woven into the article so that everything's in one place:

• Pendleton Park or Pendleton Grounds was the name of a good-sized park area in the east end of Cincinnati along the Ohio River.
• There was a ballpark called East End Park that was built specifically for the 1891 Cincinnati AA club, on a portion of the land that comprised Pendleton Park.
• After Cincinnati AA moved to Milwaukee in August, the stands for East End Park remained in place for a number of years and were used by local amateur teams.
• The East End Park grandstand was still in place when Cincinnati NL suffered a fire, and it was considered but rejected as a temporary home during rebuilding.
• Pendleton Park was acquired by the Cincinnati Gymnasium and Athletic Club, and the area was renamed the Cincinnati Gym Grounds.
• The grandstand was eventually demolished.
• The area is now the Schmidt Recreation Center. It has a number of softball fields, one of which (C.L. Harrison Field) happens to be located and positioned almost exactly where the East End Park diamond was laid out.

The one troublesome thing is that the dates are a bit vague for a lot of these events, but I think I have the chronology right. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Bug you got most of it correct. I have corrections listed below.

Summary of facts (Take 2)

• Pendleton Park or Pendleton Grounds was a generic name the name of a good-sized park area in the east end of Cincinnati along the Ohio River.
• There was a ballpark called East End Park that was built specifically for the 1891 Cincinnati AA club, on a portion of the land that comprised Pendleton Park grounds.
• After Cincinnati AA moved to Milwaukee in August suspended operations, the stands for East End Park remained in place for a number of years and were used by local amateur teams.
• East End Park grandstand and field was acquired by the Cincinnati Gymnasium and Athletic Club in 1896, and the area was renamed the Cincinnati Gym Grounds.
• The East End Park grandstand (ballyard I believe now being refered to as Pendleton Park) was still in place when in 1900 Cincinnati NL suffered a fire, and it was considered but rejected as a temporary home during rebuilding.
• The grandstand was eventually demolished.
• The area is now the Schmidt Recreation Center. It has a number of (two softball) fields, one of which (C.L. Harrison Field) and the other (Paul Kramer Field) happens to be located and positioned almost exactly where the East End Park diamond was laid out was located.

The Cincinnati Kelly's Killers didn't move to Milwaukee. The Milwaukee Brewers of the Western League replaced Cincinnati in the Association and finished out their schedule when the team suspended operations. The Cincinnati AA franchise was going to be reactived for the 1892 season in a new balpark on the west side of Cincinnati. That was until the AA merged with the NL in 1892.

I have an article published in 1897 that talks about the Cincinnati Gymnasium and Athletic Club. Let me read through it and I can maybe narrow down some of the details of the grounds and park after 1891.

I also have the box scores for the entire 1900 & 1901 Cincinnati Reds club. Give me some time to sift through them. Maybe I can find out if the park was indeed being referred to by 1900 as Pendleton Park. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SCSRdotorg (talk • contribs) 19:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

While you're doing all that, could you prepare some notes as to the exact date and source of the various facts? I fear that using your website alone would result in being challenged, due to you yourself being the author of it, as "original research". If you can provide "primary source" such as newspaper or magazine, with date and page, that would help a lot. Also, how do you feel about me starting to shift the focus of the info to East End Park? I think the layout of the article could use some work. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Google Maps yesterday, there are at least 4 or 5 softball fields in that recreation area, two of which happen to be on the original East End Park footprint - one where the diamond was, and one where centerfield (and later the swimming pool) was. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. There are a bunch of baseball fields down in that area. I'm actually working on having a marker placed down on the spot where East End Park once sat. I'd say 99.9 percent of the people that play ball on that spot have no idea that major league baseball once was played there. Out of all of the teams the Kelly's Killers played only one has survived to modern times. That would be the St. Louis Cardinals. So the Cardinals (then called the Browns) once played down there.

As far as my sources...You got it. I'll include the newspaper names and dates.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by SCSRdotorg (talk • contribs) 20:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there any practical difference in the footprint taken up by Pendleton Grounds, Gym Grounds and Schmidt Center? Are they all pretty much the same plot of land? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, any objections to my getting started with the merger of data and talk page into the East End page? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I just read through some of the article from the Cincinnati Commercial Tribune (05-16-1897) and "Pendleton Grounds" was indeed referred to generically as "Pendleton Park" also. The reference to Pendleton Park was not a reference to the ballyard. I'll bet that is where the confusion over the name of the ballyard came from. The plot of land was sometimes referred to as "Pendleton Park" while the ballyard itself which was located within the park was called East End Park by local media when MLB was played there. So maybe the ballyard itself was never called Pendleton Park even after the Kel's vacated the yard. Just the sports complex the ballyard was located in.

Also I uncovered that there was a flood in the spring of 1897. That flood destroyed the original outfield fence and outfield bleachers. The Ohio River carried them away. The article states that only the grand stand, pavillion and club house (in the outfield) survived. The article talks about a resoration process being undertaken to restore the ballpark to its "normal condition".

I do believe that Pendleton Grounds/Park, Cincinnati Gym Grounds and Schmidt Center is all the same piece of land.

I have no objection about beginning the merger process. I wish I could be more specific about the plot of land that the ballyard was located within. Most of my research has been directed only to the ballyard itself. That is what I have listed on my website at SCSR.org SCSRdotorg (talk) 22:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll start by making sure that every fact in Pendleton Park is covered in East End Park. Then I'll redirect. And I'm thinking I should also merge the talk to that page, and redirect, so that it's all in one place. I wonder if the confusion could be because the games were played "in" Pendleton Park, and "at" East End Park. A little bit like the Fighting Illini playing "on" Zuppke Field, "in" or "at" Memorial Stadium. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 22:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is a quot from the Cincinnati Commercial Gazette on July 22nd 1891.

"The Pennsylvania road will run special trains to the East End Park today. The last train will leave the Little Miami Depot at 3 PM, and arrive at the Pendleton Park at 8:10. The game will be called at 3:15. The Coney Island steamers will also stop at the park."

This quot always confused me until now. The sports complex was being referred to as Pendleton Park while the ballyard was called East End Park. I almost think that wiki should create a totally new article about the complex itself which had three different names. Pendleton Park / Cincinnati Gym Grounds / Schmidt Center . In that article give mention of the ballyard that once set within it and link to the East End Park article. SCSRdotorg (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea since you seem to have access to alot of information covering both the entire park area (I am sure it was used for many other events) for it to have it's own article. Then, like you said, make a reference to the ball park with in it.Neonblak ^talk - 22:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Page number, please? :) And for the sake of continuity, I would really prefer to keep them all as one article, at least for now. In my opinion, it is the major league ballpark that makes the area notable, although maybe public parks in general are considered notable, I don't know for sure. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 22:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Man the page looks great...Thanks for putting up with me and getting this hammered out.

I have the page number for the article written in 1897 but my scanned copy of the article published in the Cincinnati Commercial Gazzette on July 22nd 1891 does not have the page number visible. When I make a scan and I can't get the date on my copy I usually write the date at the bottom of the page. I typically do not think about getting the page number. :-( Is that something that I should do in the future ?

Cincinnati Commercial Gazette - May 16 1897 - Page Numbers 9 & 10

SCSRdotorg (talk) 01:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I made a lot of changes to try to make the article look a bit more attractive, which was the easy part. Now it's up to you to do the boring work of providing citations, and adding and fixing facts as needed. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If you can't get the page number, as long as you at least have the date that is probably sufficient. Papers in those days typically were not behomoths like they are nowadays. I was thinking that if someone were willing to pony up some bucks, it would be nifty to build a replica of the grandstand at the north-northwest corner of the lot, where the Harrison field is. The shell is visible in some of those photos, and some appropriate kind of permanent seating could be created. I gather from some pictures that the surroundings might be kind of a run-down area, so I don't know how much spare change or enthusiasm is likely to be there. But it doesn't hurt to dream. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Re-checking Google maps... only 4 softball fields... and water encroachment from the Ohio is definitely in evidence. Looking again at the grandstand, frankly it looks a lot like Doubleday Field at Cooperstown. There's your model if you've got a few hundred K bucks to spend. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Kelly's Killers

OK, I want to raise a technical point here. I used to hear of this team being called simply "Kelly's Killers". Now some sources are calling them "Cincinnati Kelly's Killers". It occurs to me that it is very unlikely that the media ever called them by that name. I'd like to know what you know about it. But I'm thinking that for purposes of the article, I would be inclined to simply say that the team was also called "Kelly's Killers", "Kelly's [whatevers]", etc. rather than prefixing "Cincinnati" onto it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

And here's where I'm going to show some ignorance, since I haven't played in a long time. Are those diamonds softball fields, or little league fields... or is there any distinction between the two? I'm thinking they both have skinned infields and 60 foot basepaths and a pitching distance of 46 feet. But as I say, it's been awhile. Oh, and if you actually live in the area, uploading a photo of how it looks now would be great, although the website also has it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they are softball fields & little league. My daughters and I go down there all of the time and we see both. They just may adjust the pitchers mound depending on who is playing. I'll have to check.

I do have pictures of what it looks like now. I tried updloading one of them to Wiki' but it got deleted. I don't know why.

The name of the team was the Cincinnati Reds. Many sources list the club as the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers or Porkers but I have never seen in any of my research the club being referred to as the Porkers...Never. I have seen the club on occassion called Kelly's "killers".....Writers never capitalized killer and it was always put in quots.

What newspaper writers would do is add color to their story by saying something to the effect of "The Reds kicked off a four game series against the Browns and Kelly's "killers" were up to the task."....They also used terms like Kelly's "hustlers", Kelly's "warriors", Kelly's "braves" and Kelly's "wonders"....Newspaper writers used the term Kelly's "hustlers" far more often then Kelly's "killers".

It would be no different then a Cincinnati sports writer saying Dusty Baker's "killers" are taking on the Cubs.....Or Dusty Baker's "hustlers" won the game...It doesn't mean that it is their club nickname.

Somewhere down the line someone officially started calling the 1891 American Association Cincinnati Reds the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers and everyone after that just used it incorrectly the way they did with the name of the ballpark. The reason is because they didn't do the research. They just assumed that Kelly's Killers and Pendleton Park was right. Well both were wrong...

I started to write an article about Mike Kelly's Reds team on Wikipedia but is was redirected to the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers article before I could finish it .....That is another thing that might need to be fixed. Kelly's "killer's" was never their nickname....If I am going to write an article about the team itself, I wouldn't want it listed as Cincinnati Kelly's Killers or Cincinnati Porkers....But I'm not pressing my luck.....lol I am at just glad that at least the true name of the ballpark is listed on Wikipedia.

If you look at the book Cardinals Journal: Day to day, year to year with the Cardinals and look at the 1891 season, the author called the Kelly's Killers the Reds.....They list it correctly. The author is from Cincinnati and him and I are SABR members. Him and I talked about that at our local SABR get together last year.

I'll go back over the East End Park article in a few days and make any changes. Let me know if you are up to the task of correcting the nickname of the club. After all of this with East End Park, I certainly understand not being up to it....It wares down the brain doesn't it....lolSCSRdotorg (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If you uploaded your photo and they deleted it, it's probably because you don't have the specifications down correctly. First you select the option for "entirely my own work" and fill the stuff in and do the upload. But you're still not done. Go back in and add {{PD-self}} and that should take care of it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Lee Allen's book and other references

Lee Allen's 1948 history of the Reds has a chapter on this colorful 1891 team, in pages 41-45, where he talks about the team and about King Kelly. Throughout, he refers to the team as Kelly's Killers. Not Cincinnati Kelly's Killers, or Kelly's "killers" or "Kelly's killers", but just plain Kelly's Killers. He doesn't actually say that was their official name, he just says "a club known as Kelly's Killers." So it's possible Allen kind of started this thing. He never names the ballpark, he simply says, "the new team constructed a park in a suburb called Pendleton, in the east end of the city, on the site of what is now the Cincinnati Gym Grounds." He mentions another interesting fact: that the owner of the east side club was Ed Renau, who was "in reality only a figurehead for Chris von der Ahe, owner of the St. Louis Browns." That might explain how it happens they were in St. Louis when the Cincinnati club was dropped and Milwaukee was brought in. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Another useful fact is on p.68, where he doesn't exactly date the 1900 fire, although it appears to have been after July 12th sometime; but he says it came the night after a game against Pittsburgh in which Rube Waddell defeated the Reds. So those facts might help in dating the fire. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the date of the fire appears to have been May 28th, or possible overnight on May 27-28. Green Cathedrals gives the 28th, and retrosheet [2] shows that Waddell won on the 27th at Cincy, an apparent 1 game homestand followed by 2 off days, after which the Reds played on the road until June 28th, exactly a month later. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of other sources on the internet say May 28. The significance of July 12 is simply that it was one of the Reds' high points that season, a no-hitter by Noodles Hahn. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

One slight problem is that, at least today, it doesn't look to me like Pendleton, Cincinnati, Ohio coincides with the ballpark site. You know the area, maybe you can elaborate on this point. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

- Alright Baseball Bug I think I have fine tuned it the best I can right now. I added a photo of the spot where East End Park once stood. It'll probably get deleted. My photos always do ?

- I changed the name of Cincinnati Kelly's Killers to Cincinnati Reds on Mike Kelly's article and someone changed it back to KK's. I guess Wiki is going to stick with Cincinnati Kelly's Killers as the title of the team's article and not Cincinnati Reds (American Association - 1891) ?

- I listed my sources.

- There is an area of Cincinnati's East End called "Pendleton". This area is different from the Pendleton District that is part of Cincinnati's Over-The-Rhine. SCSRdotorg (talk) 01:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you. That photo is from Commons since 2008, so I think it would stay there, and it shouldn't get deleted from the article. A couple of things about the photo: One is that many of the buildings still stand, so you can relate the two if you put them side by side. And the other thing then is that you see that the original diamond, assuming that actually was in the same spot in 1900 as in 1891, is actually "between" the current diamonds, that is it was closer to the water than the Harrison diamond is now. That might be a bit too much "interpretation", but anyone looking closely at the two photos in two separate browser windows can figure it out. The question remains, why was this called Pendleton Park? It seems not to have been connected with the district called Pendleton, despite what some sources claim. Maybe they just both happened to have that name. I take it some guy named Pendleton was a prominent Ohio politician in the 1800s. As far as the Kelly article, I'll see what I can do. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I actually took that photo. I went to the exact spot that the 1901 photo was taken. And yes you can see some of the same houses.

I have deep roots in that area. My family founded East End Cafe in 1887 which is located not to far from there. I have to think that Mike Kelly and some of his players went in there for a drink....I imagine my great, great grandfather tossing them out for drunkeness...lol

If the Kelly's Killers article gets a name change, I'll work a little to add some stuff to it. This club is a little blip on the baseball radar but they are my little gem. I love talking about this lost club. Thanks for helping to get this article listed properly.

SCSRdotorg (talk) 01:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. A family connection! I assure you, if there was a bar in the area, Kelly's motley crew would have found it and frequented it. Your photo shows all four diamonds. You could theoretically crop it the right way and combine the two, and the side-by-side would make yesterday and today stand out. Now, this ball club was more entertaining than good, but the early days of the game have a lot of that situation, of teams that came and went. Of the early World Series played in 1884-1890, two of them (1884 and 1887) were won by meteoric teams that were gone by 2 seasons later - the Providence Grays and the Detroit Wolverines respectively. Professional baseball was not an institution then, it was more like a series of carnivals that might disappear at any time, hence most of the parks were made of wood, which could easily be assembled and disassembled. Baseball became serious business in the 1900s, when they started building permanent structures to house the teams. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to let you know, tommorrw (May 24th) is the 119 year anniversary of the Reds getting tossed in jail. One of many times but this particular game I included in this article. I'm going to print off the game summary ( http://www.scsr.org/Baseball/Reds-4/SBS/1891/GS/05/24.pdf ), take my girls down to the site tomorrow, sit under a tree and read the game summary. I have to wonder if my great, great grandfather was at that game. It is hard to imagine that he wasn't.SCSRdotorg (talk) 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

118th, actually.
Excellent. Bringing history to life! I assume it was only the players and not the spectators who were marched off to what I imagine was a Mayberry-like jail run by a few Barney Fifes with Ohio Valley accents? :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Thought you might like this..( www.cincinnatikellyskillers.com )..It's a subsidiary to SCSR.org that I have been working on. I called it "Cincinnati Kelly's Killers Historical Society" just for fun....lol

I am thinking about doing a similar one for the American Association years of the Cincinnati Reds (1882-89). SCSRdotorg (talk) 04:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)