Talk:Peg Entwistle

When did she die?

It says she jumped to commit suicide on September 16, but that she died on September 18 and her body was not discovered until two days after she had jumped. This would mean, that she jumped one day and then lay alive for two days, before dying shortly before her body was found. Can this really be correct, or is her date of death actually September 16, or did she jump on September 18? /Ludde23 ^{Talk Contrib} 08:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's really true. According to the coroner, she lay there a very long time before she died, suffering from internal injuries and a broken pelvis. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No, my friends, the coroner never said any such thing at all! Peg died almost instantly on the day (night, actually) she jumped--September 16th! The reason her death certificate states "Date of Death" as September 18th is because that is when the coroner "declared her." You have to understand something about 1932 Los Angeles as opposed to today. Today the certificate would read a bit differently. Namely, because we are more able to determine and almost exact time based on medical factors and decomp of the body. Also. Her autopsy report--not the death certificate--states:

1. "Date of Call...Sept 18, 1932."

2. "Date of Death or When Found Dead...Sept 18, 1932."

3. "Body Received at Morgue...Sept 18, 1932."

4. "Inquest at Coroners Office--Date...Sept 19, 1932."

5. "Date of Suicide...Sept 16, 1932."

Notice the "Date of Suicide" comes last, yet it is the earliest date? This is because the autopsy report has a chronological order of the entire process from "discovery to solve." The Coroners Inquest determined her death (suicide) occured then and NOT on the 18th. It seems a bit muddled at the first, but it is easily cleared up when ALL the Official Information is scrutinized!

The cause of death is listed as "Multiple Fractures of the Pelvis," however, it wasn't the fractures which caused her death, per se. Remember, things were worded and listed a bit differently in 1932. The fractures caused ruptures of the major blood vessels in her pelvis and lower abdomen...she bled to death internally, and as any modern medical book and website will tell you, death will occur within minutes at most.

So, what is actually meant is, "the fractures caused her death in that they caused her to bleed internally and fatally."

As you know, Wildhartlivie, (Nice to talk to you again, btw!) I'm writing Peg's biography. I not only have the autopsy records, I am also in constant contact with her brother Milton (He's 91, but alive and very well!), and Peg's niece, Lauretta. I have all the details, and much, much more from them and from the LAPD and Coroner's Office which have both been gracious in explaining how this was all done in 1932.

The point is that Peg was knocked out almost instantly and died within a few minutes at most from internal blood loss...she didn't linger for 2 days--or even an hour.

Jameszerukjr (talk) 08:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ironies

The "official" Hollywood Sign history notes that the day after her death a letter arrived hiring her for a stage production. http://www.hollywoodsign.org/history-6.html Don't know any of the details, including who would have been her co-stars and whether that play was a success. The IMDB biographical notes mention that her suicide came only two days after the release of her only movie, Thirteen Women, (the Wiki article says it was before the film's release) -- too short a time for her to have read the out-of-town reviews. Same notes mention that (1) she had been drinking heavily before she committed suicide and/or (2) the autopsy did not find evidence of alcohol. Sussmanbern (talk) 12:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Most of that seems to be mistaken. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Date of Death

I wonder if we can somehow note that while the September 18 date is listed as "Date of Death" on the certificate, and also states "Date of Injury" as the 16th, her autopsy report states "Date of Suicide" as the 16th? After all, that is the actual date she died!

I know it's confusing--maybe just let it be, eh? Jameszerukjr (talk) 09:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added an explanation in a footnote about the date of death issue. Others can improve it, if necessary, but I think the (possible) confusion should be dealt with explicitly in the article. - dcljr (talk) 04:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Restored last two sections of discussion

I've restored the last two sections of discussion (made since May 26th), since I feel that archiving talk from the previous couple of weeks on a relatively low-traffic talk page such as this one is not a good idea — especially in this case, since the issues raised above haven't been reflected in any changes to the article itself. - dcljr (talk) 03:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That's all fine, but perhaps you could elaborate on what article changes you see that are needed from the above conversation? If the date of death on the death certificate says the 18th, then that is the official date. There seems to have been no further discussion forthcoming. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

See comment in previous section, which I was leaving as you were leaving your comment. <g> - dcljr (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

As I stated earlier regarding the discussion of her death date, the Autopsy Report, which was filed before the death certificate, records the Date of Suicide as September 16. The coroner clearly knew that she died on Friday. "The Date of Death" on the Death Certificate is how the department declared the death as official. I have the Autopsy Report and did several interviews with LAPD archivists--actual members of the department. It's amazing how much this article has endured since I corrected the myths and lies that had been up originally! Take a look at the history of the article. I get the feeling that people like the idea of a desperate, alcoholic, stardom-starved flapper who posed nude and took a swan dive as opposed to THE TRUTH. Frankly, I found most Wiki Editors not helpful and in fact spiteful of my efforts. Leave the Date of Death as you all wish. I'm telling you what happened. I have the autopsy--I did the interviews. It's a matter of record. Official date of suicide is September 16, 1932. Official Date declared dead is September 18, 1932. THIS IS HOW THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE COUNTY CORONER DID THE REPORTS IN 1932. Jameszerukjr (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I must say, I find your generalization of Wiki editors to be a bit offensive. Some people bent over backwards to help you on this article, even to the point of interceding when anonymous editors, who followed you here from another website, vandalized the page and left some of your personal information on the page. In fact, aside from a misunderstanding with another editor or two along the way, that was the biggest issue the article has had since you made your contributions. The foremost issues were to get the references and tone to that approved by Wikipedia policy, and it's unfair and inaccurate to characterize the efforts of others as not helpful and spiteful. I don't honestly know where you get the idea that the other people who have worked on this article in the past few months preferred Entwistle as "a desperate, alcoholic, stardom-starved flapper who posed nude and took a swan dive." That isn't what is reflected in the changes to the article, and I have gone back through all of them since the beginning of February. Yes, there has been a small amount of dispute, but there is nothing that has been as major as you contend. I mispoke regarding the two days, but I didn't go off on a tangent about things when you corrected me, and in fact, the date of death on the article has not been changed at any time since you first made your contributions on February 3, 2008. The question that was addressed this past week was clarifying what the official date of death was vs. the date of suicide. That's all. I'm completely sorry you feel this way, but please, don't discount and write off everyone who actually has tried to help. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

MovieFan Contribs

I deleted the edits by User MovieFan because most of them were inaccurate in light of the latest research. For example: Peg Entwsitle was never in "bit parts" or a "handful of films." Extensive research for her biography, which included weeks of reviewing original RKO office memos, contracts, and payroll records concerning Entwistle, support her having a role in just one film.

Moreover, the claim regarding Entwistle's Los Angeles play "The Mad Hopes" in the newspaper item sourced by MovieFan is completely spurious. Contrary to this source, the play, a pre-Broadway tryout, was a rousing success in San Diego and Los Angeles during its several-weeks' run. My research discovered many reviews and theatrical periodicals containg nothing but praise for the play and players. The MovieFan source contained, "but nothing came of it," in regard to a context insinuating that Peg hadn't got the part. In fact, the premiere of this play at the Belasco was a Red Carpet event on the scale of a Hollywood film premiere!

The contribs by MovieFan with regard the divorce of Entwistle and Robert Keith are only partly accurate, taken from news accounts whereas the official and complete court testimony by Peg Entwistle--which I have in my posession--does not entirely reflect MovieFan's edit. The "hair pulling" account is in fact reflected in the official court document, but does this information actually improve the Wiki?

There is more I can discuss, however, I wish to make it clear that I do not want to discourage MovieFan, or anyone else, from contributing to Peg Entwistle's Wiki. God knows the wars that have been waged in the past regarding it! But I simply found it easier to Undo the MovieFan contribs in their entirety in the hopes that MovieFan, or anyone else, would discuss the content.

Honestly, while I'm very pleased that Peg Entwistle has so many fans, I think her Wiki should be left as is. Using the old sources, such as tabloids and newspapers is a tricky affair with many red herrings. It's best, I believe, to leave the Entwistle page alone. Jameszerukjr (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Most of MovieFan's edits look like copyright violations, taken from http://lamorguefiles.blogspot.com/ which moreover is not a reliable source. Since this tale has clearly been sensationalized through the years and still is, most online sources are bound to (and do) carry lots of mistakes. I've looked into this, watched Thirteen Women on YouTube today, cleaned up the article and left in what seems to be verifiable content. By the way, I've found not a hint of verification Entwistle appeared in any movie before Thirteen Women, credited or not. As to The Mad Hopes, a month after it closed she was on a shoot with Radio Pictures, so something seems to have indeed come of that. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Cut length of Thirteen Women

Having gone through the sources, which are mostly not too reliable, I'm highly wary of the "wound up on the cutting room floor, threw herself off the Hollywood sign" slant to all this. The original length is documented at 73 minutes, a standard length back then. Movies released after the widely publicized death of one of the actors seldom do healthy business at the box office. The film was re-released in 1935 and by then it does seem to have been cut down to 59 minutes. The missing 14 minutes may or may not have carried more of Entwistle (at least some likely did, only going by how utterly abruptly she leaves the narrative in the version I watched). The scenes may have been cut in 1932, or 1933, or for the 1935 release, perhaps taking out most of those scenes featuring an actress whose life ended in a notorious suicide. When the cuts were made and why, along with what was in them, needs more reliable sourcing than what I've seen so far. The strongest source I've read is a 2010 article in the New York Daily news and it reads like a sloppy rehash of the old tabloid articles. For now I've taken out the text which says the film was edited down before release, cutting out a lot of her screen time, since verification of this seems dodgy behind all the layers of tabloid coverage after 78 years. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I can't source this, but it looks to me as though the last, very short scene in which the Hazel Cousins character appears on a black set superimposed over an image of a newspaper as she kills her husband and screams, was shot later with a stand in (not Entwistle). The superimposed newspaper and terrified facial expressions make it harder to see that this is not Entwistle. There are strong hints that Entwistle's role, as shot, more closely followed Thayer's book, in which Hazel Cousins is a lesbian who starves herself to death in a sanitarium.

Then, at least months after Entwistle's suicide and the film's release, this sub-plot, along with most of Entwistle's screen time, was cut and the very quick scene with a husband being even more quickly murdered was dropped in (with another actress) to tie up the dangling loose ends left by Entwistle's cut scenes. This could have happened in early 1933, but the Hays code was enforced beginning in 1934 and the re-release, by which time the film seems to have been down to 59 minutes, was in 1935. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has in its Margaret Herrick Library the book "Peg Entwistle and the Hollywood Sign Suicide (McFarland & Co., 2014). The book contains a highly detailed and well-sourced chronology of Entwistle's work in the film, including RKO production reports, payroll records, shooting scripts and schedules, inter-office memos and letters between Selznick, and other RKO department heads and the Hays Office. Everything claimed or asserted and speculated by Gwen Gale is completely contradicted by the three abundantly end-noted chapters covering the film's production. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.179.58.113 (talk) 07:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Welsh born.

Jus Soli does not apply to Wales. She wasn't of Welsh Ancestry, she left Wales at a very young age, the fact she was born in Wales is covered in he Infobox. SHE WAS NOT BORN A "WELSH" Person! Same crap As Christian Bale. --Τασουλα (Shalom!) (talk) 04:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Original research?

The edits made on June 9 by 173.196.204.18 appear to include original research and certainly need improved sourcing. Shsilver (talk) 20:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC)