Talk:Pears (soap)/Archives/2014

Date of introduction

The article states that Pears developed his new soap in 1789. Someone recently changed this date to 1807, but without any reference or edit summary. I have restored the original date. However, it does strike me as a little early, but 1807 seems a little late. Has anyone any definite information? LynwoodF (talk) 10:07, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I see someone has found a credible reference for 1807, so let's go with it. LynwoodF (talk) 17:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Formulation

In the Manufacture section it is stated that potassium hydroxide is used in the saponification process. However, the list of ingredients includes only sodium salts. I worked as a cost accountant at Lever Bros 40 years ago, but I have no recollection of Pears starting off as soft soap, so I assume the alkali used is sodium hydroxide. If nobody comes back to me in the next few days, I shall amend the section. LynwoodF (talk) 13:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody has come back on this point, so I have amended the wording. LynwoodF (talk) 14:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

When I worked in Lever Bros' works lab between 1968 to 1970 the original formulation involved saponication in a solvent comprised of industrial methylated alcohol and it was my job to test the final product. Usually an aqueous solution of potassium hydroxide was used to make soft and liquid soaps but the unique Pears method resulted in a very hard soap with a quite high TFM. When the saponification process finished the hot, liquid product had a TFM of 45%. The cup of liquid Pears solidified during my walk down to the lab. So, yes, I am a chemist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wildswimmer Pete (talk • contribs) 18:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I am very puzzled. I can find no reference anywhere else to the use of potassium hydroxide in this product. As the list of ingredients includes only sodium salts of fatty acids, it is pretty clear that sodium hydroxide has been used, at least in recent decades. Annoyingly, the writings of Francis Pears contain the expression "alkali", so it has not been possible to determine exactly what was used in his day. I have a niggling feeling that you know what you are talking about, but if so, the alkali used must have changed since your day. I have no recollection of potassium hydroxide being used in the 70s, but I cannot say with certainty that it was not. Unfortunately, to take on trust what you say, without any independent corroboration, boils down to original research, which WP regards as a heinous crime. At least, the edit history of the article and this discussion remain in place to record the fact that things might not be as simple as they look. LynwoodF (talk) 21:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do remember that when thrown to the ground a bar of Pears actually shattered like glass, so the TFM was very high, almost 100% The "stoving" process took 9 months. Pears was also properly transparent - you could see your fingers clearly through the bar. I can only supply any more details as I remember them, the reason I didn't reply to you earlier is because I had a stroke, which trashed my memory amongst other things but my intellect survived, as did my science and engineering. My previous post should've read "industrial methylated spirit" not "alcohol" ;-) The plant operators seemed immune to the fumes, but after a while in the plant waiting for my sample, my head was often spinning when I walked back down to Works Lab! The ingredients might not include the soap itself which in the case of conventional soaps could be shown as sodium tallowate, or in the case of potassium soaps, potassium tallowate. The base fat for Pears was standard tallow from industrial renderers, as was used for hard soaps. The only difference with Pears was that the glycerine resulting from the saponification was left in. In conventional soapmaking the glycerine was removed by washing the soap mass with a strong solution of salt.78.144.104.46 (talk) 17:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I have noticed in recent years that the ingredients list of whatever soap I have begins with "Sodium palmate", "Sodium cocoate" or something else which suggests they are using vegetable oils. So it was refreshing when I bought some Simple soap at the suggestion of a cancer specialist and found the list began with "Sodium tallowate". Whoever put the ingredients lists in the article was no doubt looking at relatively recent packs and seems to have assumed that the formulation remained entirely unchanged for two centuries, something which I would find hard to believe. It strikes me that, if they were using tallow and caustic potash in your day, at some point they started using at least a percentage of vegetable oil, but found that they needed to use caustic soda with that in order to achieve the desired results. This is of course speculation, but I am beginning to reconcile what you are saying with what is in the article. LynwoodF (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)