Talk:Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1965)

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Requested move 4 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Might be a good time to make a RfC of sorts, I can relist it again but RM only has its people. (non-admin closure) QEDK (後 🌸 桜) 15:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It was proposed in this section that Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach) be renamed and moved to Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1968).

The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment.

Links: current log • target log

Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach) → Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1968) – See the article's discussion. AaronWikia (talk) 23:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 21:11, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Oppose since coach is the more recognizable disambiguation in this case. Flibirigit (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I listed this RM at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey#Participation at Talk:Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach)#Requested move 4 March 2018 in the hope of receiving further input. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:37, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There is no actual listed reason for the move so why would it move? The linked discussion emphasizes that the reason for him to have an article is as a coach, so I am at a loss as to what is happening here.18abruce (talk) 00:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There must have been some confusion at some point because available sources list his birth year as 1965, not 1968.18abruce (talk) 19:07, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Good catch on that. It was probably a typo. Flibirigit (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:NCPDAB. He's a coach and the other two Paul Thompsons are players. I see no benefit to a change. Station1 (talk) 09:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Move – Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1906) was a coach in the NHL, so "Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach)" is ambiguous. Joeykai (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Joeykai the difference there is that Paul Thompson (1906) is notable as a player. Previous naming conventions illustrate that playing careers take precedence over coaching careers. Labeling Paul Thompson (1906) as a coach would be misleading, since he did both, whereas Paul Thompson (1968) is only notable as a coach. Flibirigit (talk) 18:09, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that "Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach)" could easily refer to both, making it too ambiguous to be an article title. "Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1906)" and "Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1968)" should be the article titles. Joeykai (talk) 21:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point, however I don't think it will improve anything. This disambiguation by birthdate is now moot based on the information discovered below, see next section. I recommend leaving the article at Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach), or if the community determines to rename it, then Paul Thompson (British ice hockey coach) would certainly be not ambiguous. Flibirigit (talk) 00:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A hatnote pointing to the 1906 Thompson could help avoid any possible confusion. Station1 (talk) 04:09, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Paul Thompson (British ice hockey coach) or Paul Thompson (British ice hockey), as nationality is much more recognizable than DOB. CookieMonster755 ✉ 01:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that would be contrary to the naming conventions guideline for ice hockey players which indicates to use date not nationality. -DJSasso (talk) 13:43, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey) guideline does indicate that the preferred form is birth date. -DJSasso (talk) 13:46, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose but would not object to relisting again. All suggested new names so far seem to have problems greater than the current name. Andrewa (talk) 08:12, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1906) was also a coach (in the NHL, a major league) so the present title is incomplete disambiguation. Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach) should redirect to the dab.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:31, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Extended discussion

I notice that Djsasso, Joeykai, AaronWikia all prefer birthdate, but none have commented in the section below where the birthdate is ambiguous. Based on the ambiguous birthdate, what do you propose? Flibirigit (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of the sources listed below I would only trust eliteprospects and hockeydb. The others appear to be fan sites. I believe the two people listed below are two different people. However, I think some of the coaching stats appear to be on the wrong Paul. 1965 appears to be the correct date for this Paul. -DJSasso (talk) 16:01, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Since the official site of the Coventry Blaze can hardly be called a "fan site" I don't think the information there should be so easily dismissed. And the IIHF believed him to be born in 1968 as well. I do believe eliteprospects likely has it correct, but since there is plausible doubt it would be rational to disambiguate by position wouldn't it? 18abruce (talk) 15:39, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Worldcat.org lists the author of the book Benched: Blazing a Trail Through British Ice Hockey as having been born in 1968: see here. Dekimasuよ! 00:58, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't notice one was the official team site. Must have been thrown off since it was a wayback link. As mentioned above coach doesn't work because they were both coaches, its one of the reason we don't disambiguate by position in hockey, because often at some point in their lives they are also coaches or played another position for a short while. -DJSasso (talk) 15:31, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still suggesting Paul Thompson (British ice hockey coach). What are you proposing besides birthdate, since that is ambiguous? I'm open to other ideas. Flibirigit (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I still think birthdate is the way to go. Redirects such as the name you suggest can point to it. Either will show up in the search box so it won't be an issue. There have been enough places suggesting 1968 is correct that I am comfortable that that is the date. -DJSasso (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier, you said that you "trust eliteprospects and hockeydb" which say 1965. Personally, I think it's probably 1965, since those sources are more recent, whereas sources that say 1968 are older sites. Having said that, there is still reasonable doubt about his age, and it would be best to find a unique solution other than birthdate for this subject. Flibirigit (talk) 18:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We could also try e-mailing Mr. Thompson directly, and see if he responds with a date :-) Flibirigit (talk) 18:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason you couldn't do that. -DJSasso (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and then after that people provided more sources to which I am sufficiently convinced. -DJSasso (talk) 18:02, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with leaving the birthdate out of the article, and status quo for the time being. Flibirigit (talk) 18:42, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up

Since the extended discussion above ended, the article has been updated with several reliable sources which confirm Thompson's birth as 5 April 1965 in Singapore. I have moved the article to Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1965), based on what appears to be the consensus in the previous discussion. Flibirigit (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted. This is not uncontroversial. A new WP:RM discussion should be started before the article is moved. Station1 (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since station was one of the opposers then it does appear controversial, although with more sources now to support which date is the correct once we should probably change it per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey) (assuming they are reliable, haven't checked yet). But you will need to put up an RM for it. -DJSasso (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Birthdate and birthplace

18abruce pointed out that sources at Eliteprospects and Hockeydb list Thompson's birth year as 1965. However, he also discovered that this here lists 1968. I have also discovered that this source also indicates a 1968 birth year. To further confuse you, two of the sources list Singapore as a birthplace, one lists Solihull, England, and the fourth has no birthplace. Cheers! Flibirigit (talk) 00:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the 1965 Thompson and the 1968 Thompson are two different people. Station1 (talk) 04:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. The 1968 Thompson was deleted by a PROD as failing WP:GNG and WP:NHOCKEY. I also find it peculiar how the incomplete coaching stats have moved from the 1965 person to the 1968 person. It wasn't like that earlier today. Flibirigit (talk) 04:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is true, very strange. The IHDB 1968 appears to have a different birthplace than the guy with the nearly identical stats at eliteprospects as well.18abruce (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe some Wikipedians from England will be able access other resources, or even the book Thompson cowrote.Flibirigit (talk) 05:11, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Elite prospects has two players as well 1968. I think what happened is the coaching stats from the 1965 player accidentally got moved to the 1968 player. The guy at hockeydb is usually quick to fix once pointed out. -DJSasso (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed that the IIHF here (and previous tournaments as well) lists him as being born in 1968.18abruce (talk) 15:49, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved (non-admin closure) ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 07:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach) → Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1965) – The current article name "Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach)" does not follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey). The current title seems to have been chosen according to WP:NCPDAB, but it is an incomplete disambiguation since Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1906) was also an ice hockey coach. Both men are notable for their coaching careers, and the current choice of "Paul Thompson (ice hockey coach)" is thusly ambiguous. By using Paul Thompson (ice hockey, born 1965) it will be a complete disambiguation, and following the proper naming conventions. NOTE: Since the previous move discussion above, multiple reliable sources have been added which confirm a 1965 birth date (not 1968), and thus disambiguation by year is now accurate. Flibirigit (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom to follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey). Made that much more important since there are two notable coaches with the name. It is why the guideline prefers birthday over position as it's more often unique. -DJSasso (talk) 12:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.