Talk:Paul Gascoigne/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 14:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I am going to give this a go. I see parallels with Keith Moon - both men are widely appreciated for their talent in their respective fields, which has been overshadowed by drink and behaviour issues. With apologies for sounding morbid, half the time I go into my local shop I expect to see a headline on The Sun telling me he's died.

I've skimmed through the article and it looks pretty well written, so I don't forsee too many problems reviewing this. A lot of the article has been cited from his autobiography with Hunter Davies, which should be a largely acceptable source provided we skirt around any POV in it. It helps that he's been in the press so often, as editors will come along every now and again and aggressively remove any BLP violations that have a tendency to turn up. The "personal life" area will need close attention, and even some of the career aspects eg: Kettering Town management might benefit from being toned down a bit too.

Specific comments follow:

Lead

Per discussions on the talk page, is that really the only decent free image we have?
- Far as I know yeah.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"a former English footballer" - what are these references to the Bournemouth Sunday League about?
- That is just for fun. Probably hundreds of retired professional footballers play Sunday League football. It is only because its Gazza that its been reported.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"and off-field problems" - can we be specific? To be honest, I think a better last sentence in the opening paragraph would be a brief summary of his career eg: 57 caps and years with England
- I changed that.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Worth mentioning where he grew up and briefly explain how he entered professional football
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"and was famously reduced to tears..." - I wondered if this was suitable for the lead? I can certainly remember it being all over the national news and infamously lampooned on Spitting Image the day it happened, but is it really a significant stand out part of his career? (Feel free to disagree on this)
- Yeah, I think his few highlights for England are worth mentioning in the lead.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"especially during his various run-ins with the law in 2008–2010" - I don't think the problems really started in 2008 and finished completely in 2010. Probably best to just say "especially since leaving professional football"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what's required for the infobox to be correct; perhaps a WP:FOOTY regular like GiantSnowman can advise

Early life

"before boyhood club" - what do you mean by this specifically?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When exactly was the hit and run incident?
- The source doesn't say, it will be between that 1980 to 1985 period.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"knocked down by a car" - to avoid an easter egg link, suggest "killed in a traffic collision"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need to wikilink "twitches" as tic?
- Well, not everyone will be fully aware of what tics are and I'm sure some people will want more information on them.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"gaming machines" - could do with a link to fruit machine
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Death made another appearance in his life" - this sounds a little too whimsical, suggest "Gascoigne experienced further tragedy"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The second paragraph says "He was signed on as an apprentice at Newcastle on his sixteenth birthday", while the last paragraph says "At the age of 15, he took the decision to provide for his family". I think this needs to be copyedited around so everything flows nicely in chronological order.
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Newcastle United

Newcastle United is already linked earlier in the article
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is worth a brief explanation of what Vicarage Road is, or possibly qualify this as an "away" match?
- tbh I'm not really sure why the final was played there.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"a further two-year option clause written into the contract." - don't need "written into the contract" - we already know we're dealing with this from the previous sentence
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"he took the place of Chris Waddle, who had been sold in the summer" - sold to which team?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Gascoigne was featured on the front cover of the Rothmans Football Yearbook" - how is that significant exactly?
- I think it was a big deal at the time. I'm not really sure how to prove that though.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The club's 17th place in the 1986-87 league needs a citation
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He continued to impress in the 1987–88 season, and in a 0–0 draw..." - there seems to be a clash of prose here. I wouldn't call a 0-0 draw "impressive", and I'm not sure the infamous incident with Vinnie Jones is either. We know (or at least can infer) that he stayed at Newcastle that year, so I'd probably just chop out the bit before "in a 0-0 draw"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"a much-publicised photograph Jones" - this needs a comma
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"for a British record fee" - shouldn't it be "for a record British fee"?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tottenham Hotspur

"In his first season at White Hart Lane he helped" - for the opening sentence in a section, I'd probably explicitly say "Gascoigne"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Terry Venables's" - is that the right use of apostrophes?
I think so --Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He was also named as Tottenham Hotspur's Player of the Year." - needs a citation
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"and North London derby rivals Arsenal – he scored the opening goal " - this bit here can probably be split into two sentences
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have any other information about why he wanted to join Lazio?
"an accident at a nightclub on Tyneside ruled him out" - the Guardian source given says it was a "skuffle", which implies more than an accident. And would "kept him out" fit better?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lazio

"told by manager Dino Zoff to lose two stone" - for the benefit of non UK readers, would a conversion to pounds or kilos be useful?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"extreme weight loss diet and succeeded in shedding the excess weight." - could we reword this sentence to avoid saying "weight" twice?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rangers

"as they also lifted the Scottish Cup" - "won the Scottish Cup" would be better
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Heart of Midlothian should be linked in full for consistency with the other teams
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He scored 19 goals in 42 appearances in all competitions, and was named as both PFA Scotland Players' Player of the Year and SFWA Footballer of the Year." - needs a citation
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"following an incident with Morten Wieghorst" - mention he's a Celtic player
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Gascoigne scored just three goals in 28 games and Rangers failed to win any trophies, losing the league title to Celtic." - need a citation
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Middlesbrough

"defeat to Chelsea at Wembley, in which he came on as a substitute" - may be simpler to say "defeat to Chelsea at Wembley, where he came on as a substitute"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He played seven games in the First Division, helping "Boro" into the Premier League as runners-up to Nottingham Forest at the end of the 1997–98 season." - unsourced
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"to Aston Villa at the Riverside Stadium, he subsequently" - this should be split into two separate sentences here
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Later career

"Gascoigne scored on his début" (for Gansu Tianma) - suggest "scored in his first match"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"and he never returned to the club" - the ESPN source puts it more strongly, they gave him an ultimatum to come back or be in breach of contract
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"citing professional reasons including his coaching career, effectively ending his career" - can this be reworded so "career" is not mentioned twice. And can we really say his playing career was definitely over in 2004, 36/37 is certainly getting towards the end of a professional playing career but it's not impossible to go on for a few more years.
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"In August 2014, Gascoigne came out of retirement to sign for Bournemouth Sunday League Division Four team Abbey" - This needs another source. Frankly, this seems like a drunken joke helping a friend out, rather than any serious return to professional football in any capacity
- Moved it to other projects.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

International career

"He went on to win 13 caps for the under-21s under Dave Sexton." - needs a source
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"and had a hand in the other three" - "had a hand in" sounds a bit colloquial. Presumably this means he was instrumental in setting up the ball so somebody else could score?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"topped their group" - this is a easter egg link and it isn't obvious to the reader where the link will go to
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"he made another assist" - is "assist" the right word to use here?
- Yeah.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"In extra-time he found Gary Lineker" - this doesn't scan right, had he been looking for him for the previous 90 minutes wondering where he was on the pitch? ;-)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"fuck off Norway" - worth adding the immediate response to this remark? (The Independent source has it)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Qualification ended badly for England, as they ended in third place behind Norway and the Netherlands and missed out on a place in the 1994 FIFA World Cup." - unsourced (though I know it's true)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1994 - years should not be linked
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"but by the time he returned to fitness Terry Venables" - this needs a comma after "fitness", otherwise it reads like he's "fitnessing" (!) Venables
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The final of these games were played" - I think the sentence following this is too long and should be trimmed down a bit, as it's not directly relating to his England career (the off-field stuff is handled later)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The 1996 goal against Scotland. Now I'm not a particularly big football fan but even I remember this vividly - but I still think the prose covering this is a little bit too long. I seem to recall the commentary was something like "Gascoigne ... oh brilliant ... oh yes", which was repeated on highlights and the evening news. Worth adding that as a quotation box if you can find a source?
- I cannot find a source.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Gascoigne was never to play for his country again, having won 57 caps and scored 10 goals." - needs a source (shouldn't be hard to find one)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Managerial and coaching career

"Having already gained some coaching experience in China, he signed" - as per above use "Gascoigne signed" on first use
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Metro and the Daily Mail are suspicious sources, the Daily Mail has come under strong criticism recently on WP:BLPN for its POV and track record of making up stories. Can you find a broadsheet source for this? I'd strongly advise you to as some editors will aggressively remove them if they spot them, particularly if they turn up on GAs
- I don't think we should make pre-emptive edits to avoid upsetting editors with an agenda.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Previous manager Kevin Wilson was moved upstairs" - "moved upstairs" sounds like a colloquialism, is "promoted" a better word?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The club's owner" - mention Imraan Ladak specifically
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He said that him appearing drunk in an interview with Sky News was due to his poor mental state, tiredness and prescribed medication" - this is cited to a YouTube link
- Removed it.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Other projects

1990 FIFA World Cup is already linked earlier, "1990 World Cup" will do here
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What makes digitalspy.co.uk a reliable source?
- Its a news website.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Soccer Aid appearances are (briefly) referred to in the accompanying picture, but not in the main prose
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

Isn't the London Evening Standard a tabloid (ie: unsuitable for sourcing a BLP)?
- I don't know. I don't live in London.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"in 2009 she published a tell-all book entitled Stronger: My Life Surviving Gazza. They divorced in early 1999" - these sentences sound the wrong way round. Put the divorce first, then the biography later
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Worth mentioning the Hunter Davies biography here?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Step-daughter Bianca" - don't need "Step-daughter", we know what their relationship is
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"In November 2008 Gascoigne, who had not filed any tax returns for more than two years, was faced with a bankruptcy petition over a £200,000 tax bill" - suggest "In November 2008, Gascoigne was faced with a bankruptcy petition over a £200,000 tax bill, having not filed any tax returns for more than two years".
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"On 25 May 2011 he avoided being declared bankrupt by the High Court in London" - worth mentioning he had owed £32,000?
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Could we add something about Gascoigne being a regular target for Spitting Image? We can then use File:Gazza and Gary Lineker's Spitting Image puppets.jpg
- I added the picture.--Echetus Xe 20:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Struggles with alcoholism, drug addiction and mental illnesses

I really don't like the name of this section, but I'm struggling to think of what else to call it. Fundamentally, it's correctly titled, the information is sourced, and we'd fall foul of the NPOV policy if we left it all out. How about "Mental illness and alcoholism"? Or maybe simply "Controversies"?
- Sorted. I had struggled for ages to come up with a heading--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Will need a source for this, but around 1996-97, I recall that Gascoigne was semi-frequently on TFI Friday and regularly socialised with Chris Evans and Danny Baker, usually over drink. That should go in somewhere, but not in this "controversial stuff" section
- I put that in.--Echetus Xe 20:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"His autobiography Gazza: My Story, written with Hunter Davies, was published in 2004." - this can go up to the main section, as it's not directly about controversies
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1998 he first entered sustained therapy sessions" - suggest "Gascoigne first entered therapy sessions in 1998"
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He stayed at the clinic in Cottonwood, Arizona" - don't need "Cottonwood, Arizona" here, the previous sentence mentions it
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The section on the autobiography could do with a secondary source (such as a book review in a broadsheet) that backs up the details. His autobiography can't really be used to cite itself!
"In February 2008 he was sectioned under the Mental Health Act after a possible suicide attempt" - the BBC News source given does not appear to mention the word "suicide" and per WP:BLP this must be removed immediately
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Career statistics

What makes www.rsssf.com a reliable source?
- Its an football stats organization.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A single source is given for the club performances. I assume this is a straight transcription from a table in the autobiography - can you confirm this?
- Yeah.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Honours

"Fourth place:world cup 1990" - I don't think this should be there (sounds like an IP did this while you weren't looking)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The various awards could do with citations (relating to an earlier problem further up when they're listed against the relevant prose)
- Sorted.--Echetus Xe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary

There's quite a bit of work to do here, but aside from the unsourced end of paragraphs, most of it looks easy to fix, so I'll put the review on hold pending improvements. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The plural of lexus is lexii.--Echetus Xe 20:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've had another look, and tidied up a few of the sources I was concerned about. I think all of my issues are resolved, and this really does look like a "good article" both in spirit as well as in letter, so I'm happy to pass the review now. Well done. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 20:56, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]