Jump to content

Talk:Paso Fino/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Accountability, ethics, and honesty

Hey guys. I recently decided to drop by this page, half knowing and half expecting I would find something absurd and sure enough I did. To state that an 800 lbs Paso Fino could carry a 6' 250 lbs person with ease over all sorts of terrain is not only fraudulent but reprehensible. This is light boned horse, not only that, it is a light boned horse than can be prone to ringbone as well as deep suspensory ligament desmitis. It is true that this breed's gaiting does well on trails and I can say from experience the smoothness of the gait is great for therapeutic riding, especially if the rider suffers from forms of chronic pain, but the people promoting them as the end all horse that can even carry your over the hill obese aunt are doing this breed a disservice. Please have some accountability, please be honest, because these are not heavy hauling animals. I edited the article to reflect some of my thoughts on this, and I will return to flesh it out with more information and citations. And perhaps a username.

Both claims probably require a source. However, a short-coupled horse can carry a bit more than the 25% of its weight, and because claims of health issues are particularly controversial, we need proper sources for those. Montanabw(talk) 19:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

http://performanceequinevs.com/custom_content/c_266929_high_ringbone.html http://books.google.com/books?id=4btZ4rX8iKoC&pg=PT114&lpg=PT114&dq=paso+fino+ringbone&source=bl&ots=cvo-xj9A-F&sig=yxHGnIkiaABjhh8qz7LAAM8I6x0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TqXGUKmQMo6UjAKLtoDIDA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA http://www.horseprotection.org/id51.html

It doesn't take much googling to come up with some results. I found plenty other sites talking about it, however most of those were blogs or forums. Now, if you look into a Paso's ability to carry heavy weight, you'll find a lot of people praising them for their ability to carry heavy weight. You'll even find the paragraph from the wiki copied exactly on alot of pages. It is facetious. It is a sleazy element of the Paso Fino community that makes a significant amount of money marketing these horses to overweight or older equestrians and has little basis. Again, this is a small light boned horse developed by smaller, lighter people than we have today. Whether a topic is controversial is moot. If a breed has shortcomings or health issues that can occur, people should be aware of it. If anything to make claims that can endanger an animal's health is as I mentioned earlier, reprehensible. A short back doesn't mean much if you take into consideration the amount of tension and stress the high frequency gaiting. Combine that with the tendency to ride on paved surfaces, with a heavier rider, and you have a recipe for disaster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.226.17 (talk) 03:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

If you can find something better than forums or blogs, we can use it. Otherwise, according to the policy on reliable sources we can't. I'm not arguing that any breed may have health issues; and I have heard that Pasos can have stifle problems. You may have some luck looking at problems common to gaited breeds in general. In fact, I have been one of the main editors adding this data to other articles such as Appaloosa (blindness), American Quarter Horse (several different things), Morgan horse and Arabian horse. But for one article, Akhal-Teke, my sources were marginal and it caused a bit of a shitstorm there. I'm also well aware of the "hush hush" attitude of almost all breeders. (I also have heard that Peruvian Pasos are also supposed to have "something" but I can't get a bead on what. Probably similar problems to Paso Finos, given both are gaited and from common roots).
All that said, while I would agree that small horses shouldn't carry a 300 pound slob, and I agree that riding on hard surfaces will cause problems for any horse, AND I agree that a lot of pasos are on the small side (one I became rather fond of was barely 14.2 just before a hoof trim). But I have also seen studies (done on Arabians, which are also small) showing that horses with good quality bone and a short-coupled build clearly can safely carry up to at least 245 pounds over significant distances. So I am cautious on this; "light-boned" is actually a slam, implying that the horse is weak and has no durability. Montanabw(talk) 17:05, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps finer boned would be a better term but just because it can be seen as a slam/dig doesn't make it any less true. "Straight with refined bone" seems to be the most carbon copied quote in regards to searching out bone quality on Paso Finos. I know that without sources I'm kind of just spitting in the wind, and lot of breeders are trying to get stronger bone in their genetics, but it a petite "pretty horse". Again, I don't mean that as an insult or to say it'll break just under the weight of the saddle alone. The difference between the Arabian and the Paso Fino is that Arabs don't have to deal with nearly as much exstensor strain or stress because they don't have the same gaiting or confirmation as a Paso Fino. In regards to Peruvian Paso's, that something is most likely deep suspensory ligament desmitis, also known as DSLD. However, whenever this subject is broached around Pasu Finos you will typically get a knee jerk reaction and an angry response that DSLD is a Peruvian problem, not a Paso Fino problem. It's more widely recognized and acknowledged in Peruvians, but it is still found in Paso Finos as well. My intent is not to malign(Actually, I don't mind if the people wanting to hush the issue feel slighted) the breed. I have several Paso Finos, of columbian and Puerto Rican varieties and one a mixture of the two. That right there I have no interest in debating, so please no gnashing of the teeth or bashing over "diluting bloodlines." I feel the intent of Wikipedia is to provide unbiased(as much as we can), truthful information. And the very notion that this breed can carry heavy weight with no problems is not just untrue, it is a malicious lie. This is the first page that comes up when searching for "Paso Fino". Lets be accountable. If the veterinarian sources I posted aren't good enough, at least let them be good enough to ixnaythe whole ludicrous notion of them being the go to horse for heavyweight people who want a small pretty horse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalalio (talk • contribs) 19:42, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm OK if you cut the weight stuff for now, I guess. It does need some sourcing, at least, and verification against more neutral sources, not just breed promo stuff. But heh, we on wiki fought the Columbian/Puerto Rican war a long time ago (I won) and we then merged two crummy articles into the current, one more or less adequate article. (Room for improvement, though, which is why I'm glad you got a user name and came on board!) The Google book source you found is good for ringbone, it's neutral, it's a veterinary book, etc. We can use that. (See WP:CITE to learn how, or just copy the syntax we are using in this article) DSLD is now popping up in a number of breeds (including Arabians and Pasos, though apparently more severe in the Peruvians...), found a "laundry list" that mentions the affected breeds here, so we can mention that. The stifle problems I'm not finding much on... The Performance Equine site is clearly cribbed from a vet book, possibly even the one you found, so nothing to add there. The Horseprotection site is unusable; it's full of unreliable and inaccurate material: Cannon bone CIRCUMFERENCE increases with work? Um no, bone remodeling doesn't work that way. They hint that Thoroughbreds were bred to carry 125 pounds? No comment! Or their comment that unless you are on a draft cross you shouldn't ride a horse if you weigh over 150 pounds? Baloney! I don't mean to be sarcastic, but that stuff is ridiculous! As for bone, A lot of people confuse size/circumference of bone with density and strength of bone. However, the best source I have seen on current scientific studies is here, and it gives a 20% max for an all day ride that includes cantering up hills. There are other sources for the 25-30% figure though clearly there is more work for the horse and a limit to how much work it could do. Now, I'm no expert on Pasos (though I have ridden a few), and I suppose if the modern version has been weakened by some of the same "linebreeding for problems" we are seeing in Quarter Horses (25% of all cutting and reining horses carry HERDA now) or Saddlebreds (where breeding for an extreme form is creating a major problem with lordosis), then that is worth discussing too.

Article improvement

Hi Arsdelicata (Continuing discussion begun over on the user talk pages). Basically, this article needs several things. Most of all, more footnotes to legitimate, respected source material. There are a few, but not nearly enough. Second, the information needs to be well-written and accurate without sounding like a promotional brochure. I am going to wordsmith some of what you wrote to that end. From what research has been done on this article to date, the viewpoint of some of the USA and other English-speaking Paso Fino organizations, the Columbian and Puerto Rican horses are just two strains of essentially the same breed and they are in fact crossbred here to at least some extent. However, in the past, the supporters of the Puerto Rican strain have been extremely rude and have edited the article in ways that are too biased. See WP:NPOV for the basic overview of how an encyclopedia needs to have a neutral viewpoint. Bottom line is that there needs to be an overall better quality article, such as outlined by the criteria for Good articles. It isn't a crisis or a rush, more of a process. But we are glad to help out as needed.

Another place to see what is needed is the Quality scale. Our goal is to get the horse articles to at least B-class whenever possible.

For another example of an article that is in the process of being improved and is well on its way to B-class (maybe already there, I need to reassess), see Banker Horse. Montanabw(talk) 20:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and FYI, Arsdelicata, just so you know, my only direct experience with Pasos is a friend's Columbian-bred ones. All I know for sure is that trocha was a no-no for her animals!. I've also started some Fox Trotters and once had a Tennessee Walker in the family. So I'm not a gaited horse expert, just have some best friends who are! LOL! For the purposes of the article, I'm not going to use any Original research based on anything I've actually done, though, I'm going with what can be properly footnoted and sourced to reliable sources-- LOL! Montanabw(talk) 00:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for input Montanabw I'm working hard to learn how to navigate and edit Wikipedia properly, I will be referencing encyclopedias. On the articles you send me to read I loved the Arabian best. They had so much information and it just flowed right. also read and read over the breed task force, coat colors, ambling breeds etc. I was reading the general "do not dos" and understand more now. References for Puerto Rican Paso Fino breed will be added soon along with the article, Local Encyclopedias, local law, and English language books and magazines, as well as English speaking Disney made for TV movie. If you want to merge them, that is ok, but these references will be specifically about the PRPF. Your word smithing I am sure will be appreciated by me, and help it all flow right. I looked on wiki.es, the Spanish version Wikipedia and they have no breed articles there yet. Instead, they list all breeds in one article. the reference for the date of birth is from Federation of the sport of Paso Fino horses of Puerto Rico. It was founded in 1943 still exists today, and their reference is the family of the owner of this horse ( no month available, only the year). The horse was born before the foundation of the registry. I have been reading on the TWH and plan to go to MFT next as these horses have the names of States in the actual breed name. A similar situation here. Also, must see the Morgan situation as a breed as Saddle-bred were often registered as Morgan. on another note It is really sad that people were rude in the past. I looked at some of the stuff on someone else's talk page. Very Sad, there was a registry that existed in the continental United States before the PFHA called something to the effect of " American Paso Fino " in it's stud book, the Peruvian Paso was considered a " Strain of Paso Fino" I am not aware if the registry is active at present or when or if it's operation stopped yet.Still this may be a reason for the hostility when Colombian or Puerto Rican or even peruvian readers stop by Arsdelicata (talk) 04:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Luckily, Peruvian Paso is a separate breed with a separate registry and has its own article (which you may also want to review, just as another example of an "in-between" quality article). Because this is English wikipedia, we are leaning toward doing breed articles based on what the breed registries of English-speaking nations are doing, and I am not sure if there are multiple Paso registries, but the United States Equestrian Federation simply recognizes one Paso Fino registry, not distinguishing from the Colombian and Puerto Rican strains, so that's why the article has stayed the way it is. While you are at it, you may also want to look at the Criollo (horse) article, yet another of the Latin American breed articles that (desperately) needs some improvement! Oh, and that Disney movie about the Paso Fino (I think I remember seeing it, had the scene where the guy put a glass of water on his head while riding the horse?) can be mentioned, but not as a "reliable" source! LOL! (For the same reason, we can't use "Miracle of the White Stallions" at the Lipizzan article, nor "Horse with the Flying Tail" on the article about Nautilus! Darn!) Anyway, editing wikipedia is an adventure, especially when English isn't your first language, so just have fun and remember that we do "edit mercilessly," but we also try to always Assume Good Faith that everyone is working toward the same goal of bettering wikipedia!Montanabw(talk) 21:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Montanabw, Can the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse breed have it's own Breed article? Arsdelicata (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsdelicata (talk • contribs) 10:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello there! As another WP Equine member, I've been keeping an eye on this discussion, and I thought I'd throw my two cents in to help answer this question. From what I've seen Montanabw say above, and in my own opinion, the answer is no, the Puerto Rican Paso Fino should not have it's own breed article. From the research I've done, the Puerto Rican Paso Fino and the Columbian Paso Fino may be two separate strains, but they are not two separate breeds. For example, see these websites:
  • Paso Fino Horse Association - Breed history page, where they say "the Paso Fino that flourished initially in Puerto Rico and Colombia", implying that it's one breed with two strains.
  • Gaited Horse - Paso Fino profile, where they say it is one breed that comes from "the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Columbia and Venezuela as the original countries".
  • International Museum of the Horse - Breed profile, where it treats them as one breed and says "They are now commonly found throughout the United States and Canada, and also in Puerto Rico, Columbia, and throughout South America."
I could find other examples, but I think that these prove my point. Most sources appear to treat the Puerto Rican and the Columbian horses as one breed, and most don't even mention that they're considered separate strains. Although I think it would be reasonable to mention the controversy in the article, these two groups of horses do not need separate articles. Dana boomer (talk) 14:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your input Donna Boomer. I encourage others to participate. I feel it Important this issue be addressed. Cited Material and a Continental United States registry for the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse exist at :::::* [1]

The PFHA position is not that Puerto Rican Paso Horse and Colombian Paso Fino are the same breed, but rather that they ( founded in 1972 under the name " American Paso Finos") originally Incorporated foundation stallions from Puerto Rico and Colombia referred to as their "bloodlines." Members can register Pure Colombian, Pure Puerto Rican horses, and also any "American Paso Fino" from the registry foundation in 1972.Competitions in PFHA judge gait standards and not breed standards. Arsdelicata (talk) 22:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Arsdelicata, I agree with Dana that this needs to be one article with sections on the major strains and a fair and balanced discussion of the differences. Not only does the PFHA keep both together, so does the USEF. Thus, I think it appropriate to keep them together here as well. I think this is particularly important here due to past edits to this article that have slammed the Colombian horses as inferior or crossbreds, which is not appropriate tone for wikipedia, and the Columbian PR breeders are as adamant about the quality of their animals as the PR folks. I'd rather see one good article than two not terribly good and partially redundant ones. Montanabw(talk) 01:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'll be(keeping it all together) for now. The whole horse breed issue had/has alot of problems. See Morabs, Colonial Spanish horse encompasing PP, CCC, Paso Fino, PR Paso Fino and anything from the Latin Americas including North American, like Spanish Mustang. For the most part, the AKC and FCI are blessings for dog breed definitions, but, for instance "Akita Inu" you have issues. American Akita for AKC, Great Japanese Dog for FCI. Sigh... For the Caballo Criollo Colombiano, Fedequinas is the national registry. Paso Fino is a "Modality" of the breed. Andadura is a gait of the Puerto Rican Paso Fino. Reference: "Many Paso Fino horses when urged will also execute the amble("Andadura") called Paso de Puerto Rico in Spanish Times. This is a fast lateral gait in which the horse moves both legs of a side and then both of the other side <snip>"( Book, Breeding better Paso Fino Horses, Author: Dr Carlos Gaztambide Arrillaga, 1981 English Version)

I would place the andadura gait as very similar to the super tolt of the islandic. Maybe, Pace, broken pace and/or perhaps the speed rack. Arsdelicata (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


I agree that it would be nice if there was an AKC equivalent for horses to determine what is or is not a "breed," but I guess dog politics are just as weird. At present, the USDF is about as close as we can get. Here at wiki, we have a minor discussion going on over what is a "type" versus a "breed." For some breeds/types the differences are clear, such as gaited horse and stock horse being mostly lists of breeds with similar characteristics. Colonial Spanish Horse is really tricky, as there is an association, but they claim several breeds "count." Then there are the warmblood breeds, which even by their own standards they question if they are a "breed" or a "type," but they have all those different registries, with standards that are tougher than a lot of established breeds! Even the question of an open stud book versus a closed stud book doesn't seem to settle the issue! I have to take the 5th on Morabs, Welaras and all that because I see no need for more than the half-Arabian registry, but at least they've been around for 30 or 40 years and they aren't the "send me $20 and I'll send you a purty piece of paper" sort of thing! LOL! You want a breed that barely qualifies (yet doesn't fit anywhere else, either) try Camarillo White Horse.
As for the Pasos, I get into trouble with gaited aficionados when I point out that there really are only two actual ambling sets of footfalls, (grinning, ducking and running!) a diagonal one (fox trot, trocha, etc) and a lateral one (paso fino, running walk, etc) and then faster versions of the same (tolt, rack, largo, etc...) and possibly versions that are more uneven ( a 1-2, 3-4 rhythm as opposed to a metronome 1-2-3-4 one) All the rest is, IMHO style, and people seem to have a hard time explaining what good style for their breed looks (or sounds) like. So anything that helps there is most definitely welcome!
OK, so does "Andadura" literally translate as "amble" in English? Because if the lateral leg pairs move together, that is actually a pace. Once broken up, it's a rack/tolt/ whatever. In English, there are lots of words for the various gaits, with the term "amble" being used by certain authorities on conformation and gaits, such as Dr. Deb Bennett, to describe the entire "family" of smooth, four-beat gaits. (In other circles, "amble" may refer to just the lateral gaits).
As for the Colombian horses, hmmm. "Modality" doesn't really fit with any English horse terms. (I think of music: Modality) Would they mean a separate section of the stud book (the way that Arabians were once recorded in a special section of both the UK's General Stud Book and the USA's Jockey Club prior to obtaining their own registry? Or do they mean a subgroup of the main breed? But the point here is that the American organizations don't seem to split their registry as far as I can tell, and there must be a reason. I favor trying to explain what the politics of this thing are, because, based on sites like this one, I smell an issue that MIGHT be more political than anything else...(i.e. the Puerto Rican Paso Fino people think their horses are better or more pure than the Colombian variety??) I see no problem explaining the issue. Please feel free to explain how you see this. (Wikipedia is no stranger to controversy, people threw a fit when we put stuff on HYPP and HERDA into the American Quarter Horse article too! LOL!) Montanabw(talk) 06:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I see two words in Spanish used "Andadura" and "Ambladura". Now I have to look them up. There is no word for breed in Spanish to my knowledge. The word is "Raza" or Race used in the place of "breed" that I understand refers only to animals in English. The link above is not very helpful, because it is not a registry but a "Club", but the politics I find useless, because everyone can claim to be better than something else that compares against them for a given niche or market, even if they are not authorities on what they claim to be better than. I do think that claims to biggest and smallest are valuable like for world record type stuff( see Shire, Draft and miniature Horse breeds). The PFHA registers only the Paso Fino Modality ( way of going or gait )of the Colombian Paso or Criollo Breed/s. PFHA also registered Peruvian Pasos in the beginning. Trocha and Trote must register with the American Trocha and Trote Association. Or, with "Paso Horse" registries that will accept them I guess. Trocha is a smooth, comfortable true 2 beat low handed diagonal gait, with more rapid footfall than the trot and also no or little suspension period in the air like trot has. google or youtube for good video and text explanations, but most good explanations are unfortunately in Spanish so far. I have to take the 5th I guess as well, and refrain from posting current "news" on issues. I loved the WW horse gene stuff, and mostly am just reading and learning on wiki from the posts and links you send me Montanabw. My policy on breeds is to let the individual clubs, lands of origin, etc, define that since they are groups of people with that in common as well as the probable founders and authorities. I feel that Morab, Peruvian Paso, Colombian and Puerto Rican etc breed articles should all be allowed (I enjoy them and come to wiki for them), and that competing aficionados should educate and post contributions to wiki and resources instead of competing with each other. Honestly for contributions I am still having to read and reread everything being most concerned with making welcome contributions and doing it properly. Arsdelicata (talk) 02:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
The Germans also use a variant that translates "race" to mean "breed." So in that context, "raza=breed" works for me, in that I think both terms more or less reference stock that has some sort of true-breeding characteristic, passing on consistent traits from one generation to the next? I wonder if "modality" is intended to mean "breed" or "strain" (within a breed)? Do definitions of the term shed any light? With the Paso horses, I guess my take is that when the Paso Fino article gets big enough sections on both PR and Colombian horses that the article gets awkward, they could be split, but, for now, really ALL the respectable English-language sites on 'what are the horse breeds of the world' lump the two together-- for example Oklahoma Stat U and The International Museum of the Horse. Also, we don't have that much Colombian material to justify that part being broken out anyway -- OTOH, The Peruvian Paso people make a big deal out of being a whole separate breed already and have had different standards for decades, I'm also cool with a new article on the Trocha and Trote or the other no-longer-quite-paso breeds (did you see what you think of the Criollo horse article, by the way? It isn't all that good...IMHO) One of my great dilemmas is why we have 8 different articles on the various Indonesian ponies (Java Pony, etc. sigh...) when as far as I can tell, they all came from the same basic bloodstock and look practically indistinguishable from one another...sigh, but every Island gets their own, I guess...I'm tempted to merge them, but too lazy to do so! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 04:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
the Oklahoma.edu link info which in turn links to PFHA seems to conflict with my books. For example, here. On Christopher Columbus second voyage from Spain to the Americas on the 19th of November 1493 he disembarked with 20 horses and 5 mares on the island of Borinquen at the bay of Aguada, today Añasco and gave the region the name San Juan Bautista. ( Citation page 1 Cria y mejoramiento de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico, Gaztambide 1981 ) In May of 1509, the first governor of the island, Juan Ponce de Leon, brought the first horses to Puerto Rico from his Hacienda called El Higuey on the neighboring island of La Española. ( Citation page 18 Paso Fino Magazine, Vol 1 author Juan Villanueva). From Simon & Schuster's Guide to Horses and Ponies 1987, Paso Fino, Origin, Peru, History: snip " Bred in Puerto Rico, Colombia, and Peru, certain differences do exist between the horses from these countries, but they are becoming less marked in the American Paso Fino bred in the United States.Arsdelicata (talk) 06:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Organizing the discussion - Columbus and his buddies

Starting a new header here to keep things tracking.

On Columbus, I have little faith in any horse books and advise that we look for stuff that directly cites primary source material that says when Columbus (or Ponce de leon, or whomever) brought horses -- it was well documented, we just have to find it. Google Books can sometimes be helpful for that. Montanabw(talk) 00:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hummm... the oldest book listed in the bibliography of Gaztambide's 1981 book is

"Diaz del Caqstillo, B.-1632-Verdadera historia de los Sucesos de la Conquista de la Nueva España, Madrid, España. In English the title translates to " True History of the Conquest of the New Spain." Maybe if we wait until the horse genome project is done, they will give us good scientific results or definitions on breed relationships to each other, and if modern re-creations or not? Arsdelicata (talk) 22:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Arsdelicata (talk) 09:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Organizing the discussion - Different strains

As for the Colombian, Puerto Rican and other "Paso" and "Paso Finos," I wonder if we need to generate a list (here or elsewhere) of ALL the various breeds that fall into this "gaited horses of Latin America" category (maybe THAT is also a new article, a spin off from Gaited horse, or maybe a subsection of the gaited horse article -- which also begs the question of if we wanted to break down breeds geographically the way the Kentucky Horse Park site does...oh no, NOT another project! =:-O

Anyway, back to the Pasos, do we need to figure out a family tree? What CAN be traced from Spain to the Americas (see also Jennet, by the way) and then from one island to the next, and to the South American mainland? Seems to me one question is when the Colombian and Puerto Rican strains diverged, when one separated from the other, the extent to which they have been crossbred back, etc... It is all pretty fascinating. If you want a comparison, look at what we did with the history section on Thoroughbred. It's all fascinating... Montanabw(talk) 00:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, as per the registries, All Puerto Rican Paso Fino registries show no Colombian blood. Never seen Puerto Rican Paso Fino blood in a Colombian Paso Fino.(registries founded in the 20th century) As per the top ten Stallion lists for the PFHA, Pure Colombian Stallions are the norm. Is there a way for me to see the articles on the Puerto Rican Paso Fino and the Colombian Paso Fino that you said existed some years ago? Thanks Arsdelicata (talk) 22:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Organizing the discussion - Modality

On page 3 of the book The Spanish Riding School in Vienna, text by Werner Helmberger, 2nd Edition 1983. "The Spanish riding school in Vienna is the only, the last, riding institution where the classical horsemanship of the ancients is still practiced in its purest form. The degree of perfection of this modality is the same here as when it was first described by Xenophon"<snip> The Spanish word "Modalidad" is translated into "Form" in English via online translation. But, I can't find the word Modality in English online dictionaries, to get it translated to Spanish. But, this Lipizzaner Horse book uses it. This is going to be an important word for the "Caballo Criollo Colombiano" and its "modalities",like, Paso Fino, Trocha, and Trote. Going to look back to the word Modality in Music you gave me.Now I am seeing the word "Andares" in place of Modality sometimes in reference to the Caballo Criollo Colombiano... will see Arsdelicata (talk) 00:58, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In horse lingo, I think the word we want is "form." "Modality" is most definitely not a "horse" word. Montanabw(talk) 05:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Montanabw Ok, will try to use Form. Arsdelicata (talk) 08:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, oh, to throw a monkey wrench in, "form" refers to phenotype, or outward appearance. So for a bloodline group or a breed or a "strain," which is what I THINK you mean by "modality," we are really more talking about a genotype, i.e. what's inside, and so "form" doesn't work for that. Here, we basically have "type" (as in warmblood, i.e. many breeds with similar phenotype and often common ancestors, but way back-- see also heavy warmblood), "breed," (i.e. selectively bred animals with true-breeding characteristics, usually gathered in a breed registry, usually with a closed stud book) "strain," (i.e. major factions within a breed, sometimes not crossbred with each other, example might be the section A,B,C and D Welsh pony or "bloodline" (i.e. pedigree lines within a breed, sometimes bred with little outcrossing to other major lines, such as "pure Polish" or "straight Egyptian" Arabian horses). Here, the problem is that some people consider the two main branches of the Paso Fino to be one breed, others two or more. Maybe the deal is that a "Paso" is a type, like a warmblood? But the American registry seems to want to lump them all together as one "breed," and the largest horse show sanctioning organization in the country goes along with this, as do the major sources for defining what a "breed" is in the USA. So what to do??? =:-O Montanabw(talk) 07:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, since reading many sources I strongly think that "Modality" means Gait, Air or way of going. when referring to the Paso Fino mess. The PFHA rules and registration use it to refer to the gait of an applicant horse as well as it's sire and dam especially since the Colombian Criollo comes in three gaits called "Modalities." The ATTA registration aplication also has a section to place the modality of the sire and Dam of an Applicant Horse. The Paso Fino Breed in Puerto Rico has only one "Modality" and that is a 1-2-3-4 beat with levels in extension, and added racing gait is the pace, that some Paso Finos perform when pressured to go or raced, called "Andadura" much like a pace. Gaztambide (1981) writes it was used for emergencies, and also in races in the 1800s, before TBs were imported specifically for racing. What do you think? Modality = Gait Arsdelicata (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Given that we are probably translating from the Spanish, I'd say "gait/way of going" LOL! Montanabw(talk) 01:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, then we will say gait instead of form ...lolArsdelicata (talk) 01:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Montanabw, So are we going to go to USEF for the Clasic Fino, Corto and largo? What gets me is the different versions. There is no version in the USA to define andadura, but Gaztambide 1981 does an ok job. On the other hand, the PFHA uses the term Clasic Fino, the USA Puerto Rican Paso Fino breeders use the term Fino Fino now, or Paso Fino, and the Colombian use the Paso Fino category. Or, we can have Colombian Paso Categories as they have it, Paso Fino, Trocha, and trot with the galope as well, then the PFHA categories, and then the different levels of extension named in the Puerto Rican Paso Fino all the way up to "andadura" that compares to the Flying pace of the islandic. The Puerto Rican Paso Fino is pretty much the same, with the pace being allowed for racing, but a fault at slower speed. Arsdelicata (talk) 19:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Organizing the discussion - Colombian Criollo Horses or Different strains

donating pics from shows in Categories, Trocha, and Trote y Golope. gallery of Pics ok for talk page right?

  • Trocha Horse
    Trocha Horse
  • Trote Horse
    Trote Horse
  • Paso Fino Category
    Paso Fino Category

Not sure if Colombian Caballo Criollo Paso Fino is needed, but I have and can add that.Arsdelicata (talk) 01:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Added picture of a Pure Colombian Horse or the Paso Fino Category.Arsdelicata (talk) 02:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. And yes, a gallery is OK for discussion here. First off, we need to separate "strains" of basically the same horse (at least based on USA registries and sites like IMH and OSU) from different "breeds." So help me out here. I'll list what I think are the Latin American breeds, at least as we have them at list of horse breeds, and "strains" under the respective breed. By the way, the Pasos aren't the only people with this discussion. In the Arabian horse, the breeders of "straight Egyptian" bloodlines try desperately to argue that their horses are a little different/purer/better "breed" from other Arabians (except that they aren't) but there it's mostly an advertising thing. (See the Arabian horse article, purity controversy section). But back to the point, here's a start. Rearrange as you think they should go, keep wikilinking:

  • Paso Fino
    • Puerto Rican Paso Fino
    • Colombian Paso Fino -- So explain how they are registered as "paso fino" in the USA ??
Registration ApplicationThe right to deny registration after application is reserved while reasons not divulged here. A box is checked for if in the 50 states (Puerto Rico is un-included as Commonwealth), and a second box is checked if from elsewhere. My understanding is that a 3-generation pedigree has to be included for imports and it is scrutinized. Fedequinas.org now online has a database, but, so far I can't enter it or it is not yet functional. Ok, here from an article. "As we all know, the original professionals of Paso Fino horses in the United Stated were of Hispanic ethnicity, mainly from Colombia. As such, they were familiar with the earliest (modalities)"Forms" of the then called Paso Castellano horse. for those that do not know the Paso Castellano title was changed in the 1950's by ASDEPASO (first equine association in Colombia) to Colombian Paso Horse, also known as the Colombian Creole Horse.[1] the reference is about Trocha and Trocha forms of the Colombian Creole or Paso Horse but includes Paso Fino in some areas. From Page 32. continued "The three "forms"(Modalities) of the Colombian Creole Horse also known as the Paso Horse <snips for brevity> Trocha, Trote and Paso Fino.Arsdelicata (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

and see also ancestoral breeds or types:

And I am going to be very, very naughty and admit that from the photos above, I can't tell the difference, they all look pretty similar to me! (grinning, ducking and running!) Montanabw(talk) 06:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok for

  1. Trocha Horse (Separate breed from Paso?)yes and no, the American Trocha and Trote Association, linked to on Paso fino article. In Colombia all are in the same registry
  2. Trote horse (Separate breed from Paso?)yes and no, the American Trocha and Trote Association, linked to on Paso fino article. In Colombia all are in the same registry
  3. Trocha and Trote horse (USA Registry?)yes and no, the American Trocha and Trote Association, linked to on Paso fino article. In Colombia all are in the same registry

Not really separate breeds, if the word Paso alone is used, as some people call them Colombian Pasos. No mention of Strains except here? on Wiki? Colombia has these categories for it's horses. Caballo Criollo Colombiano or Colombian Criole Horse. Paso Fino Colombiano ( or Finos ) Fino means Fine in English like a "Fine Wine" Trocha Pura Colombiana ( judges trocha only) Trocha y Galope ( judges Trocha and Canter) Trote y Galope ( Trot and Canter) To my knowledge everything in Colombia is registered to Fedequinas. Ok, now in the USA PFHA only registers the Paso Fino (gaited) horses (so far). The Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Federation of America registers only Puerto Rican Paso Finos, and other registries for Puerto Rican Paso Fino horses only exist as well in Puerto Rico. So the ATTA registers the others from Colombia. Now in Puerto Rico ( part of the USA ), all Pasos from Colombia are registered under "Pasos" with no Fino, Because, Paso Fino is the breed name of the horses indigenous to Puerto Rico. OK, but lets call them Puerto Rican Paso Fino to avoid confusions. Most horses trot, but to trot does not define a breed right? Where is the word "Strain" Coming from? I like what you did above Montanabw. As time lets me I'll elaborate and add to the article in this structure. The new breeds, gee I don't know, as long as they give the founding date. I'll go read them. Arsdelicata (talk) 06:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I tweaked the chart to put things the way I THINK you are saying, feel free to fix them (not hard to add or subtract asterisks to make things indent properly) Are you saying all of those other types are Colombian horses of various sorts??? If I don't have the "tree" correct, just straighten it out. I think once I have this understood, we can start to figure out how to structure the article. I think we can redo the article to have sections on each type of horse here. As for "strain," when I say that, I am thinking of different bloodline groups within the same basic breed of animal. That So "strain" isn't quite the perfect word, "bloodlines" may be closer, but is a bit more restrictive than I really intend. Basically, If we can come up with some outside sources that we can use to footnote all this, that is the key. See WP:V for an explanation of verifiability standards on wikipedia. Also, look over these sources and add more that you can find. Everything below is, by wikipedia standards, considered verifiable and acceptable, though of course if more specific articles from even better sources (university studies, scientific or historic journals, etc) can be found, they can be used to refine things. Montanabw(talk) 04:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

USEF's description of the Paso Fino's history

  • Paso Fino Horse Association breed history page -- Describes the "American" paso fino as an amalgam of Puerto Rican and Colombian bloodlines. From that page: "For a while, there was some contention as to which country produced the "true" Paso Fino. Though there are still some self-professed "purists" who advocate for one or the other country, the American Paso Fino - true to our "melting pot" tradition - is often a blend of the best of Puerto Rican and Colombian bloodlines. "

Oh and as for Columbus, Diaz is definietly one of the earliest people to write about the Columbis voyages, if his works mention what horses were brought when and to where, that is a virtually unimpeachable source as to those specific facts. (I think I might have a translation of Diaz somewhere, buried in a bookshelf, will look...) Montanabw(talk) 04:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ page 30 of Showtime Paso Fino Magazine11th edition, 2004, title: Newcomers of the Paso Horse, By M. Martinez

Organizing the discussion - Spanish Jennet

Spanish Jennet Horse Well, they don't list the founding date on wiki? or on the web site? anyhow requirement for registration is basically 50% Paso Fino or Peruvian Paso and %50 "Foreign" to get the color? Where do they get the color? from appaloosa horse breed ? Well they don't say. Don't really feel like having to research them more. At least not now. http://spanishjennet.org/breed.shtml Arsdelicata (talk) 08:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, basically they crossed gaited horses on Appaloosas and Pintos. Spotted crossbreds. If I got my way all the time, the article would have been tossed, but sometimes on wiki, I lose a few, or figure they aren't worth the fight. The article is almost orphaned, not one frequently searched on. I made sure that the redirects all go to [[{Jennet]], to avoid confusion with the classic ancestor. Montanabw(talk) 03:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what is going to happen to the foals that don't inherit the gait or the markings from the cross. Placing the tab informing that this is a new breed under current construction and not the original extinct [[{Jennet]] horse was important.

A mutation happened in the German_Shepherd_Dog, where a dog had white markings and blue eyes like a border collie, the owner then went on to found a new breed called the Panda Shepherd as GSD aficionados told her never to breed it. I see there is a redirect to German Shepherd from the Panda Shepherd. there were no parti color German shepherd until the spontaneous mutation DNA tested to come from two Pure bred German_Shepherd_Dog, so the standard never addressed the phenom. White dogs were once allowed but albino's discouraged, they changed the standard to eliminate white from the show ring,(recessive white). so they grouped and form a new breed, the Berger_Blanc_Suisse which is the same thing as the White_Shepherd_Dogand some call the White German Shepherd dog after all they were registered with the AKC as German_Shepherd_Dog with coat color listed as white. For other German Shepherd dog spin offs see Shiloh_Shepherdand the King_Shepherd. But at least they explain what they are in most cases. I think the two white articles might merge eventually. But... I have my hands full with the Paso Fino stuff for now, so I'll work on that.Arsdelicata (talk) 01:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Organizing the discussion - Claims to Paso Fino the word or the breed or the gait

It is generally accepted, that the word Paso Fino came from Puerto Rico, but then the claim to making it a famous word is what seems to be a fight between Colombia and The United States. In Puerto Rico, the word is reserved for the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Breed by law.Puerto Rican Paso Fino word/breed law. However this law is not applicable to my knowledge anywhere else. This propably why the continental United States registry for the Puerto Rican Paso Fino is called the "Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse association of America.Puerto Rican Paso Fino Now for the Colombian Paso Fino this link to Colombian Senate Defines the Breed name as the "Caballo Criollo Colombiano", or Colombian Criollo Horse, and in its last paragraph states that this is because of the utilization of the breed in other countries like United States and Puerto Rico,( which are one country actually) with the end of creating their own examples in order to say they posses a horse fine of step.<translated snip>

Just so you know where I am coming from with all this. I would read the PFHA propaganda as to claims of having the best blend just that (in theory they could have the worst blend). as well as the purist stuff an attempt to disregard perhaps that they did mix Peruvian, Puerto Rican and Colombian pasos in the beginning to make a new breed originally called the "American Paso Fino". But anyhow, registries exist now for all these breeds individually today. Montanabw, I can work with the structure you gave above. This is ok, So, in the USA you have PFHA for Colombian Criollo horses in the Paso Fino form only. I added above the American Registry for the Trocha and the Trote, wich by the way, if you look at the registration application on section two, you see a box for "Modality" we can call form where one would list Trocha, or Trote, and maybe even Paso Fino, would have to ask though.Trote and Trocha registration link

It is taking a lot of work, but I think the article will be really good in the end.Arsdelicata (talk) 15:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I think my head just exploded! LOL! Aren't breed politics so much fun?  :-P
OK, I think we can look at creating sort of a three-basic-section article: Part one being a basic description of the "generic" paso fino horse (common breed characteristics, etc.) as it is understood in the USA by the average horse (but non-paso) person, then explain that today there are two (or more) main breeds/types/whatever of horses that are called "paso fino" by people in the USA, the Puerto Rican and Colombian ones, then create separate sections explaining the history and description of each, with some fair and balanced description of how they differ from each other in history, conformation, gait, etc... Does this sound like we are on the right track? Maybe we could also include a "non-partisan" discussion of some of the controversies over all this too. What do you think? Also, we may need to do more to explain the gaits beyond the three classic ones. To that end, maybe also take a look at ambling, which, by its nature has to be a simple summary, but also look at the way we expand how the Peruvian gaits are described in the Peruvian Paso article to see what we could do here. (Trocha is described somewhere, but not "Trote."
We may also need some sort of a wiki layout expert to do us up a "family tree" showing how these breeds diverged from the original Spanish horses brought to the Americas...???

Anyway, I think what we might want to do is create a "sandbox" off of this article to play with a new version. That way we can completely destroy things without having the main article go through an awkward stage. See Talk:Paso Fino/Rewrite sandbox where I will paste the article as is and then we can dink around with it until we get something better that is clean enough to swap in. Montanabw(talk) 04:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox talk

Rather than try to discuss changes via hidden text in the sandbox (though that is a good way to explain minor edits in various sections), I thought I'd move some of the conversation back out here. By the way, I hid your comments in the sandbox this way: <!--This is how to make a hidden text comment (without the "nowiki" tags, of course!) -->

ok, I'm learning so I'll do that.Arsdelicata (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I actually think that progress is being made, and it's OK is the sandbox is really, really messy, as long as we try not to have flat out parallel versions inside of it any more than necessary (I favor cut and paste rearranging over two parallel versions, that's the glory of the "history" link, you can compare changes easily). I am beginning to see that what we appear to have is the "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) PFHA, which is the older USA group, recognized by the USEF and cited in the "mainstream" sources such as the International Museum of the Horse, etc... then, we have the "factions," the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino, the Colombian groups, etc...what I am not clear on is if these are, organizationally, factions within the PFHA but all sharing the same registry, or if they are breakaway, independent groups with independent registries. Can you clarify that?

PFHA states in the Stud book it was originally the "American Paso Fino Breed" (Obsolete maybe), Today it registered only Puerto Rican and Colombian Paso Finos as long as the " Gait" is Paso Fino, so Far refusing to register the Trocha, and Trote, Colombian Pasos, and even Colombian Paso Finos with any other form of gait in a 3 generation pedigree from Colombia. This is where American Trocha and Trocha association comes in. The Puerto Rican Paso Fino aficionados choose to breed Puerto Rican Paso Finos only, register with PFHA and other registries specifically for Puerto Rican Paso Finos, and they compete against each other only, because 1. they feel their is no need to compare their stock to Colombian Paso Finos and they also usually loose when they do. 2 they want to compare their Puerto Rican stock to each other so they can make improvements within their breed. The Colombian Aficionados have nothing to worry about, because the Colombian Paso Fino Horses are the most Popular, advertised and even bred from stallions, on all the top 10 PFHA lists from the last two decades if not more.
LOL! Horse politics! They are everywhere. So where does the USEF, with the show rules come into this? Are they still the actual body that sanctions shows, or are they totally ignored by everyone? See their rules here. Montanabw(talk) 07:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

PFHA is perhaps the Largest Paso Fino registry in the whole of the USA. ( it may not even want to enter the "Breed" issue, as it retracted it's new breed propaganda "American Paso Fino" and now concentrates on " if it does the "Paso Fino Gait" it's a "Paso Fino"" with no breed designation really.

Is their rule book online? The web side seems kind of sparse...if you can find a link to the rules, that would be very useful. Being able to download a pdf of the [{AQHA]] rulebook saved us hours of work when we were cleaning up the American Quarter Horse article, but try finding it on the web site from the home page--it's buried! Montanabw(talk) 07:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Link to PFHA rule book online the 2006 version 2006 PFHA rule book

In Puerto Rico, the Paso Fino Breed is the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Only, and by law. This is to protect the original indigenous breed and the origin of the Paso Fino breed name as a cultural heritage of Puerto Rico. Competition and registration is held specifically for this breed so that local breeders can compare and improve local stock.

Can you cite to the law? LIke acts of Congress are "P.L. xx-xxx" for example. Or USA federal laws are "XX U.S.C. 1234" (I MIGHT be able to dig up the statute at my local law library if it's a government law, though I can't read Spanish if the code is in Spanish)
Page 1

(P. de la C. 4418)for the 2004 amendment of Law Num. 169 of the 11 of august of 1988 and amendments have been made, so I wonder what the original was, but basically, no horse can be registered as a paso fino unless in the central goverment paso fino registry founded in 1988 I am guessing.law link. I'll try to find an English version. Arsdelicata (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Colombian Pasos are called what they are called in Colombia. "Caballo Criollo Colombiano" trocha trote or Paso Fino Form ( The gaits) No Paso Fino registry in Puerto Rico will register a Colombian Horse. They get registered with the Association of breeders of "Paso Horses" of America. (who can register anything they want)

More hose politics. And I presume the Colombians likewise won't register Puerto Rican horses...will they register horses in the PFHA? (For example, I think the Norwegian Fjord and Icelandic registries in their respective home countries will not allow offspring of exported horses to be re-imported and registered)

In Colombia,(they have Lots of horses,)its a whole other country. the breed is called " Caballo Criollo Colombiano" with up to 3/4 forms. 1. Paso Fino Colombiano (Paso Fino gaited form) 2. Trocha Pura Colombiana (Pure Colombian Trocha ) 3. Trocha and Galope (Trocha and Canter Horses) 4. Trote and Galope ( Trot and Canter)

In Colombia, ALL forms, are registered with Fedequinas to my understanding. (Separate registries by areas or by competition entities may also exist) Arsdelicata (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So why four names if the same breed, or are they different bloodlines? More horse politics? (I'm thinking of the German warmbloods as a comparison -- technically, there isn't a breed called the German warmblood, there's a number of different warmblood breeds sort of consolidated into a single government registry... Montanabw(talk) 07:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I think because the word criollo means native, and they are all Colombian native horses, who share some ancestry, but are different enough and no longer really the same? Some cross breeding did happen I guess, but since they have evolved so much, I don't think it is done any more, yet every once in while (actually pretty often), Colombian Paso Finos are born that trocha and must be trained to Paso Fino. To further complicate the issue, trainers like Colombian Paso Finos that are born doing trocha and not Paso Fino claiming that these will have the fastest footfall when trained to Paso Fino. And they do win in the PFHA "Classic Fino" category. It's an ongoing mess really. this tendency to Trocha is not a characteristic of the Puerto Rican Paso Fino at all, but to be fair and equally pick on them, pacyness is a fault and can happen in them, like with the iclandic it is a fault at slow speed or the more collected fino and corto gaits.Arsdelicata (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The other thing we need are more footnotes, footnotes, footnotes...if you have web links for anything, that is ideal. If the rulebooks and such are only in hardcopy, that's OK too, but then just cite title, publisher, page number, etc....

FYI I REALLY LIKE that chestnut stud! Woweee! Yowza! Can we make him the lead image, and maybe more the gelding to the "breed characteristics" section?

Of course, I just don't ever take away a picture another has posted and replace with one of my own since that could be considered biased if I did it, since I took it...lol Arsdelicata (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
But I can! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 07:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

On the general history of the Spanish horse in the Americas, I have a good source, which is also in google books: Conquerers, by Deb Bennett. I really haven't delved into her stuff on the breeds, as I've mostly used her work on European origins over at domestication of the horse and horses in warfare. The link to the partial text, if you have a high speed connection, is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=IaN-YaOMhX4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=conquerors+deb+bennett Luckily, I have a hardcopy. Montanabw(talk) 22:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I really want to buy that book for myself. It looks good. I get nervous though when people write about what happened 500 years ago today. Well, off to insert more footnotes and quotes.Arsdelicata (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Sometimes I teach college level history, it is said, "our view of the past is more important than the past itself." The Bennett book is pretty good, but I wish she would have footnoted it. For example, the one gripe I have is that I completely disagree with her somewhat dismissive assessment of the impact of the Arabian, but absent knowing the basis for her comments, one cannot really analyze her statements. I could be swayed by knowing the source, but absent that, her tone sounds like she allowed breed bias to creep in. (And she has an obvious bias and abiding love for the colonial Spanish type horse and its descendants, which usually does not get in the way of a generally excellent work). Montanabw(talk) 07:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

So you get that feeling sometimes like "Hummm I wonder how 'right' that is". Or, I wonder if the legend became fact? lol. Arsdelicata (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Law number .87 on the 30th of june 1978, declared the sport of Paso Fino Horses Indigenous to the island.
  • Law number .169 on the 11th of august 1988 established the office for regulation of the Agro-Industry of the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse as part of the Department of agriculture establishing a central stud book for the Puerto Rican Horse, the “Paso Fino.”
  • Law number .106 on the 10th of April 2003 designated the first week of March of every year for the “Dulce Sueño” Puerto Rican Fair of Paso Fino Horses. The fair takes place in the town of Guayama and is named after the foundation stallion owned by the former mayor Genaro Cautiño Insua. Coincidentally for over 20 years this fair had taken place the first few days of March of each year, establishing an anticipated annual tradition.
  • Law number 179 on the 1st of August 2004 amendment to article 8 of law number 169 on the 11th of august of 1988 Clarifying the law of the Agro-Industry as that of the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse, in order to make clear which horses qualify as “Paso Fino” in Puerto Rico. The name of the Central Stud book office was declared “Central Genealogical Registry of the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse breed. “ No horse in Puerto Rico can be advertised as a “Paso Fino” unless it is a Puerto Rican Paso fino, descending from a foundation sire such as “Dulce Sueño”

PFHA can be listed as an added registry for both the Paso Fino breed, and the Colombian Criollo breed. Arsdelicata (talk) 14:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

An English language resource for laws in Puerto Rico, plus those on the Paso Fino Breed, or the Puerto Rican Paso Fino, also known as the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse. English Language Puerto Rican Legal Resources for the Paso Fino Arsdelicata (talk) 19:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
"(7) Puerto Rican Purebred Paso Fino Horse Shall mean every horse that, when observed, moves forward in a four seat lateral gait that is characteristic of this breed. Its forward gait has a spirited movement, lifting the hooves only a few inches (not more than 6 inches from the ground) with a wrist-like movement of the fetlock. Its movements reflect assertiveness in its performance, as well as daintiness in its step. Its stride is short, but the movement of its legs are very speedy. The horse maintains these characteristics throughout the entire performance, and in most cases, its natural gait is evident from the moment it takes its first steps after being born. The Paso Fino horse refers only to the individual animals that belong to this breed that are only descendants of the progenitor "Sire of Sires", known as "Dulce Sueno". It must also have a traceable lineage of horses inscribable in the Central Genealogical Register of the Government of Puerto Rico, of at least three generations of this breed that may be determined, and shall apply to the horses that constitute the progeny of ancestors known and registered in the Central Genealogical Register of the Government of Puerto Rico, and that all the immediate genealogy of Puerto Rican Purebred Paso Fino ancestors of both sides of the individual to be registered can be determined. The Department of Agriculture shall deny the license or certificate of registry as a purebred Paso Fino horse, if it is established that the ancestors of the individuals to be registered are of foreign, unregistered, or doubtful origin, or to any other weighty reason. The terms "pure Paso Fino", Puerto Rican Paso Fino Breed, Puerto Rican Horse Breed, Classic Paso Fino, and Traditional Paso Fino, shall all mean the same thing. " the above is a direct quote from the law site above in English. I can't seem to link directly, but if you search for the term "Paso Fino" directly from the laws of Puerto Rico English Folder, you can get all the laws in English. Arsdelicata (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

question

Why was my picture of Vesuvio removed? He won Bellas Formas Nat'l Champion in his day, albeit the gelding class, with Patricia Figueroa. This picture was my own, and was correctly shot for confomation. The stallion now showing is lovely, but the reading putblic needs a side shot. Been many years since adding to Wiki, so sorry if I'm not doing this right!!! Soltera (talk) 13:56, 26 September 2012 (UTC)Soltera

He's the lead image at Gelding. I believe the stallion was substituted for two reasons: 1) More dramatic and interesting photo; and 2) Wiki layout for lead image strongly prefers images that face into the text. #2 isn't as big a deal, and I think the photo could go back into the article, somewhere, perhaps replacing the one of the yellow-eyed horse. Montanabw(talk) 18:05, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Colombian laws to come... This Horse encyclopedia has some good explanations for all International Encyclopedia of Horse breeds

Link to Colombian Senate Senate of the Republic of Colombia

Good Book! Arsdelicata (talk) 14:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Paso_Fino/Archive_1&oldid=1083529216"