Talk:Paris–Roubaix

DeVlaeminck - Koppenberg

I'm not entirely sure of it, but I think the photo on this page of DeVlaeminck on the cobbles is from the Koppenberg climb in Tour of Flanders. The steep banks on the side of the road are a dead giveaway (at least, to me) and looking off in the distance, the climb seems way too steep to be anything from Roubaix. Plus, all the riders are wearing helmets, which were required in Belgium (before the UCI made them mandatory in 2003), but in not in France, where P-R takes place.

At any rate, I feel like the Paris-Roubaix page should have a muddier picture, or at least one where the cobbles look more atrocious, since that's what the race is known for. This shot of grimacing riders laboring up an ungodly steep climb is out of place here, but would be ideal for the Tour of Flanders page.

-Cosmo http://cyclocosm.blogspot.com

Eternal flame

I don't think the line "Riders who win both races in the same year are guaranteed eternal fame." When 3 riders do not even have pages. Saying it is a great honor might be better.--68.45.76.174 22:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Garin

Maurice Garin was born in Italy, close to Aosta, then migrated to France, but he had the French Citizen just in the December 1901, so the two Paris Roubaix won in the 1896 and 1897 were won by the Italian Maurice Garin.

references:

• http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2004/pp_1.0.604816649.shtml
• http://www.museociclismo.it/corridori/corridore.php?id=7561
• http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Garin

Intro Paragraph Problem?

Paris-Roubaix doesn't start in Paris at all.. Even one of the subsequent sections says "The 260 km race starts in Compiègne and follows a winding route northwards towards Roubaix, ". Perhaps someone more knowledgeable should fix this?--ĞavinŤing 15:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that, don't know how I missed that before! Don't forget to be bold in fixing things! Regards, Severo^TC 02:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

The last additions to the article are largely written by me (a non-native speaker) and grammar probably needs to be corrected. Could anyone check it? Tips to improve the article are also welcomed! Regards--Drunt (talk) 23:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Featured article?

The article has developed nicely following the contributions by User:Les woodland and I was wondering if we could improve the article and nominate it as a good article (or featured?). Paris-Roubaix is probably the most famous of the one-day cycling races and it could be interesting to improve the article to meet the requirements of Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. In that case, we could even propose this article to be "Today's featured article" (Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests) in April 2009. Wouldn't it be great? Some ideas to improve the article:

• Create Carrefour de l'Abre and Mons-en-Pevele sections.(like the Trouée d'Arenberg one). The french wikipedia has some information about this sectors.[1][2] The The final cobbles section could also be moved there as Éspace Charles Crupelandt.
• Include more information about Amis de Paris-Roubaix.
• Maybe the first image of the article (after the Logo) should be one portraying riders riding on cobblestones to illustrate the subject of the article (or a picture showing cobblestones).
• Do you have more information about the velodrome and the showers? Isn't it a tradition to take a shower there? The cubicles are named after the riders.
• I'm wondering if the copyright of old photographs (pre-First World War) is already expired. There is a photograph in the book Paris-Roubaix: A Journey Through Hell of the very first start where you can see J.Fischer and M.Garin. Do you know where we could find it? (or other pictures of the very first races)

Regards.--Drunt (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

FANTASTIC ARTICLE! Up to "Good Article," I say. Let the nomination process begin. Incredibly well referenced, and chock-full of clearly written information. --Smilo Don (talk) 01:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree. I'm going to nominate it right now. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 09:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

'Historic' showers

I've removed the reference to "historic" showers. They may be primitive but they're not historic; the track was built after the war. Les woodland (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)les woodland

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Paris–Roubaix/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Quick fail criteria assessment

1. The article completely lacks reliable sources – see Wikipedia:Verifiability.

   • well sourced

2. The topic is treated in an obviously non-neutral way – see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

   • neutral

3. There are cleanup banners that are obviously still valid, including cleanup, wikify, NPOV, unreferenced or large numbers of fact, clarifyme, or similar tags.

   • no banners

4. The article is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars.

   • no edit wars

5. The article specifically concerns a rapidly unfolding current event with a definite endpoint.

   • n/a, annual updates obviously required, but currently up to date.

An interesting well sourced article, no problems against quickfail criteria, proceeding to substantive review. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose):

   • History
   • I have made some copy-edits, but more are required. I didn't dive in for fear of distorting the accuracy.

• Examples:

• The Church objected, suggesting that riders would not have time to attend mass and spectators might not bother to attempt attendance. presume this is the Catholic church, do you have the name of a local bishop or curé who objected? This might be better. Is it covered in the citation?
  • I don't know if it's covered in the citation. I did not write very much of this article (you may have assumed, not unreasonably, that I was a primary author of the article, but I'm not). I don't know how to revise this. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC) OK, will assume good faith on this. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• • • I wrote the original piece. No, the name of the bishop or whatever has long vanished. It is indeed the Roman Catholic church. This being France, there would be no English Catholic church (official name, I understand, of the Church of England). The Catholic church in France is known simply as the Catholic church, there being no need to distinguish it, but we're probably into petty semantics here: Les woodland (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)les woodland
      • Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick about the Roman Catholic church Les woodland (talk) 08:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)les woodland
• News of Breyer's ride to Roubaix may have spread. Half those who entered did not turn up at the Brassérie de l'Espérance, the race headquarters. These sentences do not sit well together. I presume that the Brasserie was the finish? Please clarify. Or are we talking about people who didn't turn up at the start. Please re-write this paragraph for clarity.  Done
  • I don't know what the intention is. I'll try to research it myself. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
    • The Brasserie was the headquarters at the start. I'll amend it. Les woodland (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)les woodland
• The starters did include Maurice Garin, winner of Desgrange's first Tour, suggest, who went on to win Desgrange's first Tour,
  •  Done Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Garin came third, 15 minutes behind Josef Fischer, the only German to have won. Suggest ...the only German to have won the race.
  •  Done Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Only four finished within an hour. This reads as if the whole race only took an hour! Prseume you mean within an hour of the leader or similar.
  •  Done Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Seeking cobbles is relatively recent. It began at the same time in Paris-Roubaix and the Ronde van Vlaanderen, when widespread improvements to roads after the second world war brought realisation that the character of both races were changing. Perhaps seeking the challenge of cobbles... would be better.
  •  Done Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Pierre Mauroy, when he was mayor of Lille [Roubaix is virtually a suburb of Lille], virtually is a weasel word, perhaps best drop it in favour of something more neutral.
  •  Not done This is in a quotation. Surely it should either remain as is, or, if necessary, the quotation itself should be removed? Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Ok, I'll leave it for there and carrying on reviewing tomorrow. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
• Course
• 28 - Troisvilles to Inchy First used 1987. The highest of all the cobbles at 136m. Jean Stablinski memorial on the right. The section drops 900m at two per cent. Suggest: First used in 1987. The highest of all the cobbled sections at 136m. Jean Stablinski memorial on the right. The section drops at two per cent for 900m.
• 23 - Capelle sur Ecaillon to Buat I am confused by the following bit. How does it get to 400m in height? What is the 7 500m I thought the whole length was 1700m?
  • Pretty obvious typo or vandalism. I just removed the 7. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
• 18 - Trouée d'Arenberg A memorial to Stablinski stands at one end of the road.[ Which end. I like the detail here, but it shows up the lack of detail in other sections.
  • Well, Arenberg is well known as the most difficult of the cobbles, so it's only natural that there's been more written about it. I'm not really sure that's a problem. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
• 12 - Orchies, chemin des Prières, and chemin des Abattoirs disjointed in the last 600m What does disjointed mean?
• 5 - Camphin-en-Pévèle Fairly disjointed throughout but appalling in the last 300m. Disjointed? Please find another word to replace appalling which is un-encyclopaediac and a weasel word.
• 3 - Le Carrefour de l'Arbre to Gruson Length - 1,100m Its 2.1 km are rated... Which is correct? Likewise: This section drops from 50m to 45m in a straight line. The first half is a series of corners, then along irregular pavé towards Luchin. The second half finishes at the Café de l'Arbre restaurant and has more even pavé. A sharp turn towards Gruson signals the start of sector 3, although this has sometimes been included in sector 4. Which is correct?
• 2 - Hem sometimes disjointed?
• 1 - Roubaix, Espace Charles Crupelandt - The final cobbles For consistency can we start with the length?
  • • I think there's a fair bit of OR in the course section. I'll revise to fit the two used references (and perhaps others), but that's going to take a little more time than I have right now - I'll try tomorrow. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 20:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• I have made other copy edits, please check that I haven't distorted the meaning. Also please make all phrases such as left-turn, left turn, left hand turn, 90-degree, 90 degree, etc consistent throughout. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Do we still need the table that starts the course section as nearly all of the information is duplicated? Jezhotwells (talk) 19:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Bicycles
  • OK Jezhotwells (talk) 19:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Records
  • Lists are often frowned upon but I see no real issue with this. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed duplicate info, emphasized the respective record, and moved this section to the Winners and records-section. lil2mas (talk) 00:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Good, tat's better now it is merged/ Jezhotwells (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

• Controversies
  • OK Jezhotwells (talk) 19:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comments
• Theo de Rooy The American television channel CBS covered Paris-Roubaix, said the writer James Startt, and was delighted to find a prominent rider who could speak English. Which year? Jezhotwells (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  •  Done Rather significant revision - found a better source than the fairly anonymous "James Startt" and a "disappeared website." Revised wording around de Rooy's charming words as well. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 21:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Les Amis de Paris-Roubaix
  • I removed the contact section, Wikipedia is not a directory, otherwise fine Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Winners and records
  • Can we move the earlier records section into this? Jezhotwells (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done lil2mas (talk) 00:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

• Other cobbled races
  • OK Jezhotwells (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Films
  • OK Jezhotwells (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Related events
  • OK Jezhotwells (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Lead
• Consider slight expansion to mention the films, and Les Amis. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  •  Done. I also took out the "Films" subheading, as I found it trivial, containing one link that can be reinserted anywhere (put it in the lead) and one redlink. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 02:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

1. OK, all OK Jezhotwells (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

   b (MoS):

   • This broadly conforms to MOS, but I think the records section should be merged with Winners and records to remove duplication. Also I query the necessity for the table at the head of the course section as the information becomes duplicated. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have merged the records-sections, but I think the course-table should stay. It's a short summary table, and could be used as a "navigator", meaning that the names should wikilink to their respective section in the article, rather than to the cities! What do you think? lil2mas (talk) 00:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Yes, that would be good if it is wikilinked to the sections. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references):

   • The article is fairly well referenced but there are some sections that need referencing which I shall come to.
   • Ref #42, #43, #56 need properly formatting, at the moment they are just bare html. Ref 26# doesn't support the statement and links to a blog section of velo-club.net I assume good faith in the references to print sources. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done, though I feel a little uncomfortable about the replacement of ref #26. I found the same statement (that early races were run behind pacers) in the article Hippolyte Aucouturier, where it's backed by a print source, which, naturally is a print source I've not read. I went ahead and included it, if it's a problem say so. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 03:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC) References OK now. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

1. b (citations to reliable sources):

   • Ref #12 & #13 are non-reliable sources, and are not necessary as ref #14 is fine. Ref 26# doesn't support the statement and links to a blog section of velo-club.net. #Ref #63 can we have more detail of this disappeared internet site - original url and date of access? Or could a replacemnet be found. Other observations all of the observations need citations. Work in 2008 this section is completely un-referenced. Les forçats du pavé the quote needs a citation. Cobbles of honour this section is completely un-referenced. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done to the best of my ability. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 01:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)  Done Jezhotwells (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

1. c (OR):

   • No OR Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

2. It is broad in its scope.

   a (major aspects):

   • Broad

   b (focused):

   • and focussed Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   • NPOV Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

   • No edit warring Jezhotwells (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

5. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):

   • File:Tafi roubaix.jpg needs a detailed fair use rationale. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually going to list that image for deletion. It's not needed here (good god doesn't this article have enough images anyway?) and its only other use is in Tafi's article. Fair use images of a living person (especially when used just to show what the person looks like, as in Tafi's article) are a no-no. Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 23:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

1. b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   • File:Togosign.JPG needs a caption Jezhotwells (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done Nosleep ^{break my slumber} 23:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

2. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   • OK, I am placing the article on hold. It may need more than 7 days which should be OK.

If you have queries about my comments please place them here or after the comment. I shall be watching this page and the article. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

On hold for a further seven days. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:27, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

1. Ok, Thank you very much for your hard work. A good article about a great road race. Congratulations. 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Changes

Thanks to all for the changes and other improvements to the article. I wrote a lot of it but it's often possible to be too close to your own writing to see its shortcomings. I'm flattered that it was considered good enough to propose as a Good Article. Thanks. Are there any outstanding amendments still to be made? Les woodland (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)les woodland

Garin

hello I was doing research on cycling and I serivano data Roubaix vogliodivi that Maurice Garin, there is a mistake because nationality is Italian. He took French citizenship in 1901 and then ran as the first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.40.55.159 (talk) 13:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

According to the fully referenced Maurice Garin he took French citizenship in 1892, and thus was French when he won P-R. Chienlit (talk) 14:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the earliest he could become French was at the age of 21. Les woodland (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)les woodland

Easter Sunday

I see someone has written that Vienne and Perez proposed Easter Sunday for their race. They didn't, as is clear from the letter they wrote to Rousseau at Le Vélo. They suggested a different date but it was discarded because it clashed with municipal elections. They could have chosen Easter Sunday instead but it's obvious they didn't because they chose April 19 instead. April 19 wasn't Easter Sunday, as a check on the many websites giving the dates of Easter for the last 200 years will confirm. Easter was two weeks earlier.

As it stands, the "Easter mystery" paragraph starts by saying the first race was on Easter Sunday and ends by saying it wasn't.

The notion of the church service seems to have been a publicity stunt by Victor Breyer. It was he who announced it and he who "cancelled" it. The church was shut that morning. But newspapers don't cancel church services, especially those - if we are to believe the story - organised in dudgeon by protesting clerics. Which leaves you to wonder whether there had ever been a service scheduled in the first place and why there would have been one, given that it wasn't Easter and that Sunday was and still is the general day for sports events in France.

The first time the race was run on Easter Sunday was the following year, but it was Easter that moved and not the race. The race was on the same weekend. It's just possible that the supposed row happened that year instead but I've never found evidence for it. If you have, please do say and give the sources.

I wrote the original entry that has been so much changed. If whoever rewrote it would be kind enough to consider my comments and, if he feels fit, to change the story to meet the facts, I'd be delighted.

Thanks.

Les woodland (talk) 12:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)les woodland

Mea culpa. I didn't read it correctly. Sorry. Les woodland (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)les woodland

the 27 cobbled sectors updated - the 2011 course

As there was the opportunity I was encouraged to update this section. I added the new course map and edited the paragraphs deleting an obsolete section and renumbering the remaining sectors. I hope you dont argue and feel ok with my humble edits. Maxxl2 (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

This sort of detail is suited to a roadbook, not an encyclopaedia, and only relevant for roadbooks in some years. I am being bold and radically cutting it back, retaining sourced anecdotal info about the important sectors, but removing what is no more than notes about grading, length and star ratings which lacked any sentence structure.

If exactly the same sectors were ridden every year in the same order with the same gradings and at the same distance gone/to go then the table would be useful, but given that this is not the case, any table will only be recentism, and if it is only applicable to the 20** race, it should be in the article for the 20** race. Kevin McE (talk) 10:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

The dog called Gruson

Hi folks - under "The Wrong Race" section it talks about a dog called Gruson knocking Hinault off his bike, 13km from the finish. In fact, the section of cobbles 13km from the finish passes through the hamlet of Gruson. It's not impossible, I guess, that the dog had the same name has the village, but it seems unlikely. Blather (talk) 08:19, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

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How many times did Hinault ride?

The article currently says that Hinault rode this race three times.

In 1981 Bernard Hinault said after winning the race: ... The only other times he rode it were in 1980, when he finished fourth, and in 1982, as the defending champion

But...here people make it clear that he rode this race also in 1978 and in 1979, so five times in total...--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 06:51, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Largest winning margin

According to the "other records" section, the largest winning margin was 5'21 from the 1970 edition. According to the page of the 1896 edition, the margin that year was 25'00 --77.167.231.99 (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Well spotted. 1970 is postwar largest winning margin, so the text was corrected.Rpo.castro (talk) 14:56, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

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Article issues

This is listed as a GA, but I don't think it currently meets the GA standards, as there are significant article issues. The most important ones are:

• Lack of sourcing in places, many unsourced sections and lots of unsourced tables
• Not enough about the history, only 10 years of the race are mentioned (and 8 of those are purely for "controversy" reasons). History section would be better laid out like in Tour de France#History, with summaries for different time periods
• Way too many long quotes, violates MOS:QUOTATIONS
• Comments section seems like WP:TRIVIA, and should maybe be integrated into another section (maybe Course section)

If I were to put this up for GA reassessment now, it would surely fail. But will contact WP:CYCLING to see if anyone wants to work on trying to improve it towards GA standard. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

GAR

Paris–Roubaix

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted (t · c) buidhe 18:04, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

This article has been a GA since 2009, but in my mind, it falls woefully short of the current GA standards. Problems I've identified are:

• Lack of sourcing in places, many unsourced sections and lots of unsourced tables
• Not enough about the history, only 10 years of the race are mentioned (and 8 of those are purely for "controversy" reasons). History section would be better laid out like in Tour de France#History, with summaries for different time periods.
• Way too many long quotes, violates MOS:QUOTATIONS
• Comments section seems like WP:TRIVIA, and should maybe be integrated into another section (maybe Course section)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Prose and layout issues mentioned above.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Sources that are in article look fine. Multiple unsourced sections and paragraphs though.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Article is overly focused on a small number of races, and doesn't have any text on 95% of the events at all. This therefore fails the major aspects and focused aspects of scope criteria.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images look fine, and seem relevant and freely licenced

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Overall, this would fail the GA criteria by a long way

I would like to give people a bit of time to try and start fixing these issues, but if not, then it should be delisted. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:33, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm totally agree with you. Bordurie (talk) 11:12, 13 April 2022 (UTC)