Talk:Parameswara of Malacca/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Cleanup

This article needs to be cleaned up. Similar info need to be integrated, grammar should be improved.--Wai Hong 12:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Hindu-Macedonian bloodlines

I found several pages re the Hindu-Macedonian relationships:

Although not directly Alexander's, I suppose it's possible that Parameswara has Indo-Greek bloodlines. XoXo 17:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Notes to Year of Death and other updates of 2 June 2007

Update made based on information from National Library of Malaysia website. Info is also confirmed from http://www.asiaexplorers.com/malaysia/malacca_history.htm and from http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/parames.htm. 218.111.48.42 18:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

More evidence of Megat being the son and 1414 being date of Parameswara's death described in Muzaffar Tate's article http://161.139.39.251/akhbar/history/1999/st99802.htm

Quote:

In fact, it is the Ming chronicles of the Malacca embassies to Beijing of 1411 and 1414 which resolved the question of the year of Parameswara's death. For the 1411 embassy was headed by Parameswara in person. But the Ming records inform us that the embassy of 1414 was headed by his son, Raja Menawar, who came seeking Chinese recognition of his accession to the throne as Megat Iskandar Shah.

As a result of over a century of sleuth-like academic research, we now have a reasonably coherent story regarding Parameswara and his times.

Unquote:

60.49.107.255 16:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Remained Hindu till his death

He in the year 1409 accepted the Pesian title Sultan Iskandar Shah but he remained a Hindu till his death (who can proof this)? So, is he a Hindu-Muslim? Detonqutei 00:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Malay or Javanese?

How come the article says that he was a Malay prince, when the history part says it clearly that he was a prince from Majapahit, a great-grandson of Empress Tribhuwana Wijaya Tunggadewi, who was somehow stationed in Srivijaya after it became a tributary to Majapahit? It means he was of Javanese ethnicity, not of Malay ethnicity. Matahari Pagi 10:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)d

Dude, put aside your Indonesian nationalistic pride, this is Wikipedia. Parameswara translates from the Sanskrit as 'supreme or absolute master of the earthly world' and frequently appears amongst the titles of both Buddhist and Hindu rulers in the region (see Burma, Cambodia or Thailand), therefore you cant be sure that the javanese parameswara is the one we are talking about, there were also burmese "parameswara", thai "parameswara" and even indian "parameswara". His geneology was clearly mentioned in Malay Annals(Dates shown is their reign as Raja), Paduka Sri Maharaja Parameswara[1399 - 1413] son of Paduka Sri Ratna Vira Vikrama di-Raja[1386 - 1399]son of Paduka Sri Bikrama Vira di-Raja [1372 - 1386]son of Sri Maharaja Sang Utama Parameswara, Batara Sri Tribuwana [1324 - 1372]son of Sri Maharaja Sang Sapurba [Nila Pahlawan Sang Sri Prabhu Dharma Sena Tribuwana] son of Raja Suran son of Raja Tersi Berderas son of Raja Zamrut son of Raja Dermanus son of Raja Ardeshir Babegan son of Raja Kudar Zakuhun son of Raja Amtabus son of Raja Sabur son of Raja Aftas son of Raja Aristun Shah son of Raja Iskandar Zulkarnain (Raja Iskandar of the two horns)Orhanghazi (talk) 01:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Err..he is not purely Javanese by ethnicity either. He was actually born from the line of Balaputra, a prince of the last king of Sailendra, King Samaratungga and a Srivijayan princess. Parameswara also never claim to be a Javanese prince, but a Srivijayan Prince. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.54.9.189 (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Islam, China and Prameswara's birthplace

Prameswara is indeed a common Sanskrit name. Prameswara is also incontrovertibly Indonesian, whether he was Sumatran or Javanese is unclear- but he was definitely born in Sumatra int the court of Sriwijaya- not as the article states, in Temasek- which would make Prameswara a fisherman's child. Islam arrived in Indonesia from Persia, Punjab and Gujarat- not China. Zheng He was a Hamafi muslim, not a Sufi. The earliest Muslim graves in Java proper date from 1368 (Banten) -1400 in Trowulan, the capital of Majapahit in the same complex as the cenetries of the highest nobility- which indicates the highest strata of Javanese society had already began to convert, predating the Eunuch Turkoman Hamafi Zheng He. Thus the ludicrous argument CHinese as part of the Wali Songo brought Islam to Java is disproved by archeological evidence.

You will also note- the Javanese repelled the Mongols- the only other Asians to successfully do so were the Japanese. Zheng He's navy was a navy for prestige and tribute- not a military navy. The Javanese under Singhasari later Majapahit also repelled the Siamese, and the Negerakertagama epoic already indicates there was Muslim activity or unrest in pre-Zheng He Java. I have not read of any Zheng HE military campaign. I direct you to Rickleff's History of Java. Save the lame original research for UCLA Berkely and the Discovery Channel Hour Asia series.

Parameswara is not an Indonesian, show your nationalistic pride somewhere else. He lived in 14-15th century, at that time, there was no Indonesia, just MALAY archipelago. Do you have valid proof that he was born in Sumatera? Fisherman's child?..haha arre u kidding me?..by 14th century, there was already an independent Malay kingdom there, ruled by a family (Srivijayan royal house) which Parameswara belong to. The history of Port of Singapore started under the rule of this Malay royal family. And all of these, are clearly mentioned in the Malay historical text, Sejarah Melayu.

To think that the last king of Singapore, suddenly born in Palembang, is something damn weird, to me (Orhanghazi (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC))

The Wikipedia section on Zheng He implies that his fleet was indeed one of militaristic proportions and capability. If anyone does not agree with that section of Wikipedia, why not change it rather than having a section of Wikipedia being dissynchronous with opinions of this article.

Zheng He would merely be following the adages of the Art of War that a strong army might as well win by scaring its adversaries into submission and conserve resources. e.g. Iranians and Somalians have no problem attempting assaults on Russian, French or British battleships but they sure know to avoid a Chinese or American naval fleet. The formidableness of a fleet is not measured by how many battles it had won but by how many adversaries it had conquered without a battle.

Secondly, the Chinese navy did play a significant role in catalysing and accelerating the spread of Islam in Southeast Asia. They may not have introduced Islam but their presence sure scare the guts out of the Hindu/Buddhist empires who were too overspent warring each other than to build naval capabilities to counter the Chinese presence.

Zheng He's fleet was not there mainly for a beauty contest, but to build a secure trade route between China, Southeast Asia, India and Arabia as a fail-over or back-up to that latently treacherous and latency-laden land-based silk route.

Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk) 23:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Why not called Malaccan?

Parameswara is the founder of Malacca Kingdom and later the founder of Sultanate of Malacca because he married Pasai's princess. But strange, he was never recognized as a Malaccan, why? The American founded America and they called themsleves American because they think America is proud, better than England. But the whole world called Parameswara a Malay/Melayu, NOT a Malaccan. Someone please explain/analyse?

My lousy personal opinion is:

For Parameswara, Sultanate of Malacca is just a trading port to manipulate the Pasai muslims traders. Deep in his heart, he is still Orang-Srivijaya, he loves his father, mother and ancestors. What important to him is Srivijaya of his family, not a remote trading port. The name of Pasai princess was not even mention.

Later sultans of Malacca too did not call themselves a Malaccan.

Nobody in Malaysia today is a Malaccan.

Melayu is much more important than Malacca, so that the name Melayu is still in use.

And where is this 'Melayu' originated?

L joo 04:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Although I bet he felt he was a Malay more than anything else, in truth he really was not. His ancestors were Javanese Kings and Queens of Majapahit Empire.

The origin of "Melayu" is Melayu Kingdom, which is now Jambi, a province in Indonesia.

Matahari Pagi 08:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In 832 AD, Rakai Pikatan (also called Jatiningrat), crown prince of neighbouring Sanjaya kingdom, married Pramowardhani, daughter of king Samaratungga, Sailendra's last king. When Samaratungga died in 850 AD, Rakai Pikatan seized the Sailendra throne n usurped the Sailendra kingdom. Samaratungga's infant son, Balaputra, whose mother was a Srivijayan princess, was taken into refuge into the forest. 18 years later, Balaputra attempted to regain his throne, but his attempt failed.

Balaputra fled to Palembang n eventually became king of Srivijaya, when the old king died. From the the line of Balaputra was born Srivijaya's last prince, Parameswara, several centuries later, who fled to Melaka when Palembang was attacked by Javanese invaders. Parameswara eventually became the 1st king of the Melaka kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.42.76 (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

To Matahari Pagi,

Please read more sources of history regarding Parameswara, plus the Sailendra's Malay Kingdom in Jawa Tengah (Middle Java). According to historians, Sailendra was related to Srivijaya and was also a Malay-ethnic Kingdom (but in Jawa Tengah).

This was proved by many inscriptions around Jawa Tengah that were written in Old Malay as well as the gelar (title) "Dapunta" that was used by the Srivijayan king (Dapunta Hyang) in Sumatera was also used by the founder of the Sailendra Kingdom (his name is "Dapunta Selendra").

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, Parameswara was a name for two persons within the same lineage of the Srivijayan kings. --Master of Books (talk) 19:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Or more correctly, its the title of 3 persons within the same lineage.

Sang Nila Utama (titled Sri Maharaja Sang Utama Parameswara Batara Sri Tri Buana) - First King of Singapore
Dharmaraja (titled Paduka Sri Maharaja Parameswara) - First Sultan of Malacca
Abu Syahid Shah (titled Raja Sri Parameswara Dewa Shah) - Fourth Sultan of Malacca

There is also a source mentioning that "Parameswara" is the title of all kings of Singapore

Although I bet he felt he was a Malay more than anything else, in truth he really was not. His ancestors were Javanese Kings and Queens of Majapahit Empire.<---the most disgusting statement I ever read, :).(Orhanghazi (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC))

Possible but not probable

Paramesvara is a Sanskrit name. Sanskrit is infamously the Indo-European language. There are many commonalities between Hindi and Sanskrit-derived languages with European languages. "Para" itself in Sanskrit prefixes as "beyond" or "boundary" quite similar to the Greek "para". Therefore, it is possible for Paramesvara to have Greek origins. But historically, that is improbable.

Malay Muslim or Tamil Muslim is a modern political classification irrelevant to the origins of Paramesvara. If he were Tamil Muslim, than many Malay Muslims would also be Tamil Muslim. However, there is no evidence that he originated from the region of Tamilnadu. Also, Tamil is not a Sanskrit language, though bearing many sanskritized words.

The appropriate question should be - was he a Malay Muslim, a Turkic-Mongol(Mughal) Muslim or an Aryan Muslim?

The burning question is - was "paramesvara" his birth name or his self-ascribed name? Was he named "paramesvara" at birth or was it a result of narcissism? Or was he named "paramesvara" by his subjects who worshiped him?

If it is his birth name - did his parents meant to ascribe him as "god"?

If he named himself "paramesvara" - did he think that he was "god"?

Or did his subjects believed that he is "god" and thus named him? If so, he must have been a very charismatic person.

Naming him "paramesvara" would therefore be sacrilege in Islam. Is that a reason to call himself Iskandar Shah after his conversion to Islam?

The other burning question is - why is the Malay wikipedia page on "parameswara" in conflict with the English page. In the Malay page, there is a paragraph affirming that Paramesvara and Sultan Iskandar Shah are two different persons. Could someone translate and merge that paragraph into the English page?

Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk) 17:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Some Malays are extremely sentitive on this topic, because Parameswara was their ancestor and was their king too, most Malays could not accept that they were once "pork eater" and that they were once belong to the infidels. The Hindu name "Parameswara" is popular in Indonesia, even today, the Indons did not abandon the naming tradition, Malaysian Malays did and is very sensitive to mention it. Parameswara was a Srivijayan-Palembang prince of upper class (caste) with royal bloodline tracing to the Indo-Greek family or maybe Turkic-Mongol(Mughal), but so far nobody has a reliable source to proof it, except the Malay Annals, but the Malays denied completely and claimed it was a fairy tale. ZhengHe himself was a [Turkic-Mongol descendant (but known as a Chinese) who actively converts the natives, Parameswara was one of his converts, of course the Malays denied. Parameswara was a mix (Indo-Greek + Turkic-Mongol + Chinese + Champa Srivijya Malayu), the Malays denied. But Wikipedia needs proof/relible source. DNA is a proof, but the Malays denied too. What Malays not denying is "We belong to the group Indonesian Malays and we are of Muslim origin and we never ate porks". 218.111.43.132 (talk) 06:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course the Malays of today don't eat pork, but the Malays acknowledge their ancestors were Hindu-Buddhists, it's even mentioned in Malaysian school History textbooks. If you think you have sources of the dribble you wrote about Parameswara and the Malays then write it in the article. Furthermore you're not very bright if you think Parameswara's ancestry could be proven using DNA. Sheesh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.82.50 (talk) 15:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Inspiration for his conversion and marriage

We should scour for any literature evidence to see if there is evidence to such hypothesis:

Arab and Persian traders impressed upon him the possibility and advantages to converting. But that must have been insufficient persuasion for him. It could be his close friendship with the Chinese admiral that resulted in his conversion. Therefore, it could be possible that Malacca, and thence Malaysia of today, became Islamic not wholly because of the Arabs or Persians but because of the Chinese.

Had the Chinese admiral also played matchmaker for him to wed a Persian princess?

Purely hypothetical speculation.

But if the hypothesis turns out to be highly possible, then the Malay Muslims of Malaysia should thank the Chinese for their being Muslims. And the Chinese should be proud of their role they played 600 years ago in bringing about the existence of Malay Muslims. But then of course, if the Chinese had been indifferent, Malays today would still be thankful that the Chinese indifference would have preserved the mix of a Malay-Theraveda/Vajrayana Majority over Malay-Hindu and Malay-Muslim minorities in Malaysia.

Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk)

Your speculation (original research?) has no place here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.82.50 (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Chinese contribution to the rise and fall of Malacca

The corollary to the hypothesis would be - the Ming Empire actively encouraged and nudged Malacca towards Islam as a strategic move against the Theraveda Siamese, the Hindu Majapahit and the Vajrayana Seri Vijaya. Therefore, the influence of Muslim-Malacca to cause the fall of the Hindu and Buddhist empires and Islamisation of Southeast Asia would be in no small role due to the surreptitious encouragement of the Chinese Navy.

Unfortunately for the Chinese, Malacca failed to hold out against the European colonialists. Or perhaps, the fall of Malacca was exacerbated by or even due to the Chinese de-emphasis on naval power. The Ming Chinese, after Admiral Zheng He, went as far as erasing the admiral's naval records and forbid the building of naval military capabilities. The subsequent Manchurian Chinese empire no longer had any naval focus or interest in the defence of Southeast Asia.

Could it be then, that the rise and fall of Malacca hinged solely on the existence and subsequent demise of a friendly admiral's vision of Chinese naval supremacy?

Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk) 22:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Amusing, but you may want to read WP:OR. __earth ^(Talk) 05:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If you could write a research on this, the Chinese would be very proud. Too bad, it has no place here, refer to WP:OR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.82.50 (talk) 15:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

hindu malay?

please someone explain to me how srivijaya, a buddhist kingdom, can have a hindu prince.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.128.250.8 (talk) 17:38, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Parameswara is not from Srivijaya, but from Temasek (modern day Singapore) as mentioned in Sejarah Melayu. From 13th century to 14th century, there was a Hindu Malay Kingdom in Singapore known as Kerajaan Singapura founded by Sang Nila Utama(203.82.80.107 (talk) 05:11, 19 June 2010 (UTC)).

During that time, the relationship between Hinduism and Buddhism in the Malay archipelago is not as separate as we see now. Syncretism is common, besides srivijaya was already long gone by the time of Parameswara. He might be just following the trend, who knows? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.82.50 (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

parameswara a tamil name?

i am not going to change this as i think it is not inappropriate to say parameswara a tamil name when in truth it is from sanskrit name. parameswara is a hindu or tamilian. there is a reason to use tamil name.(and it is tamil name) any objection?

Reply: Parameswar is Sanskrit word referred to Lord Shiva. "Parameswara" is how they call Lord Shiva in the Tamil language. And Lord Shiva is a Hindu God, the way people call their God is what I am referring here. Please understand the difference between Language (Tamil) & Religion (Hinduism) first to understand the context.

Of course, Alexander The Great (Alizandurammuthu) and Genghis Khan (Ganga Karupusamy) are also Tamilan. You can refer in this link. [www.tamilsupremacy.com/the_great_Tamil_(no own country though)/Alexander_The_Great_and_Genghis_Khan_are_Tamilan] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:E68:4406:BFD9:9056:726D:99A:AAA4 (talk) 11:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Conversion dream

Contrary to the source given, the Sejarah Melayu does not say that Parameswara converted after a dream. In fact, it doesn't say he converted at all. It was his great-grandson Muhammad Shah that had a dream and converted. Morinae (talk) 09:22, 7 January 2019 (UTC)