Talk:Panthera fossilis

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Removal of important information and references

Can I ask why important information, besides a reference that I put in, removed? It's not unanimous that this cat was a subspecies of Panthera leo. Leo1pard (talk) 12:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Leo1pard (talk) 04:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect Panthera leo fossilis to Eurasian cave lion?

See this for more details. Leo1pard (talk) 04:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Naming of this article

BD2412 Panthera leo spelaea has been renamed Panthera spelaea, but is this page not going to be changed now, considering issues like the evolutionary link between spelaea and fossilis, as stated by sources like these?^[1]^[2] If we leave this as it is, even though the article on spelaea has been renamed, then it may give people the impression that the Eurasian cave lion was initially a subspecies (Panthera leo fossilis) of lions (Panthera leo) that evolved into a different species (Panthera spelaea), before going extinct. Leo1pard (talk) 13:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Before moving or renaming this article, I suggest to first figure out whether it is now considered a species Panthera fossilis as suggested by Sabol (2014) or a subspecies of spelaea. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please see this. Leo1pard (talk) 09:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Marciszak, A.; Stefaniak, K. (2010). "Two forms of cave lion: Middle Pleistocene Panthera spelaea fossilis Reichenau, 1906 and Upper Pleistocene Panthera spelaea spelaea Goldfuss, 1810 from the Bísnik Cave, Poland". Neues Jahrbuch für Geologie und Paläontologie - Abhandlungen. 258 (3): 339–351. doi:10.1127/0077-7749/2010/0117.
^ Marciszak, A.; Schouwenburg, C.; Darga, R. (2014). "Decreasing size process in the cave (Pleistocene) lion Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) evolution – A review". Quaternary International. Fossil remains in karst and their role in reconstructing Quaternary paleoclimate and paleoenvironments. 339–340: 245–257. doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.10.008.

I second this idea. They aren't Panthera leo according to the recent studies posted in the article. Fossilis is considered to have evolved into Spalea. @Leo1pard and BhagyaMani: Tijkil (talk) 10:22, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tijkil: you are trying to edit-war in a change that has been contested. Discuss and find consensus first, then make edits accordingly. Please review WP:BRD. I am reverting the article back to its status quo until this has been settled here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:37, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ref errors

Okay so I want to know for what reason you're rejecting evidences for the Panthera fossilis name. The reference links I shared has already been accepted in P.spelaea and P.atrox pages. ^[1] ^[2] ^[3] Ishan87 (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24382145/ https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1749-4877.12082 Ishan87 (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As already explained in the edit summaries of my 2 reverts : your additions caused multiple ref errors. Please learn WP:CITEHOW and preview before you push 'publish'. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Sotnikova, M.V. & Foronova, I.V. (2014). "First Asian record of Panthera (Leo) fossilis (Mammalia, Carnivora, Felidae) in the Early Pleistocene of Western Siberia, Russia". Integrative Zoology. 9 (4): 517–530. doi:10.1111/1749-4877.12082. PMID 24382145.
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Mosbach lion

Why did silver tiger remove my edit of adding another name "mosbach lion" Razeangst (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Razeangst: What is your source for adding Mosbach lion? The sources in the lead before my edits did not use that name and I tried searching for sources using Google Scholar (found nothing) and Google Books (found only this book, which I added as a source - I can't read this in its entirity so I am not entirely sure whether it is using it for the (sub)species or a particular specimen). Eocursor (talk) 20:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is the more public name instead of authors, the people use mosbach lion more and the steppe lion source is absolutely wrong, you can see YouTube if you want to mosbach lion is the only name they use, steppe is reserved for only and only the Eurasian cave lion Razeangst (talk) 06:32, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Razeangst: Wikipedia is based on reliable and published sources so if your source for this information is YouTube and other non-formal online resources I don't believe it can be added as the main common name to the article.

The source I added demonstrates that both "steppe lion" and "cave lion" has also been applied to P. fossilis (you can read the relevant portion yourself) and the sentence also makes clear that those names are more commonly applied to just P. spelaea. I don't see the problem there. Eocursor (talk) 09:00, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ik that smart guy, it was to show you what the more common name is, instead of seeing 2 or 3 others opinions, see th majority moshach is used more than steppe and steppe is only for the Eurasian cave lion you have misunderstood the author and you can see it for yourself all over the internet what the general public uses those names for Razeangst (talk) 13:36, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Razeangst: What the general public uses "all over the internet" is not considered a reliable source. I don't think I've misunderstood the source and you are yet to provide a reliable source demonstrating that "Mosbach lion" is in any way a widespread common name. If you have any proper sources - again, see WP:RS, you are free to use them to support your wanted change. Eocursor (talk) 14:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unless some reliable sources that clearly use this name for the taxon are provided, we simply can't list it here. FunkMonk (talk) 14:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record maybe "cave lion" and "steppe lion" should be removed as well since they are only supported by a single source, I just tried to track down sources that provided a common name and found those instead of "Mosbach lion". Here is another source (p. 104) that appears to identify P. l. fossilis as "primitive lions" though I am not sure if they are using that as a common name or just a descriptor. At the very least I cannot find much to suggest that "Mosbach lion" is the conventional name for these cats. Eocursor (talk) 14:59, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is the point of the sentence "also known as" Because everyone calls it that, you can't change the fact it is called that even if it is wrong, you don't need a source for that like the sentence speaks for itself,for example if someone comes after seeing this name and searches for it, he can see that the name is used for what otherwise, he will just be confused because everyone is calling it that and he cannot find what it actually is, if we mention that people also call it that name the person cam easily identify what it actually is. Razeangst (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And also every lion can bro called primitive,it is not a name for a particular species, genus or subspecies rather an adjective perhaps for particular types of lions Razeangst (talk) 17:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And also you have definitely misunderstood the author, any sensible author wouldn't call panthera fossilis stepe lion or cave lion,they must be refering to the Eurasian cave lion which they think the Mosbach lion is a subspecies of. Razeangst (talk) 17:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Razeangst: Everything on Wikipedia needs a source and information added cannot "speak for itself". If you read the source for the other names now featured in the article you can see that they clearly treat fossilis as a distinct species. I don't know why you're assuming that the authors of that publication are not sensible or why I have to have misunderstood them. Eocursor (talk) 17:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh leave this man I don't wanna edit this page anymore even though I was giving explainations, they gave me 2 warnings for Vandalisim alone on this page, just leave it now do whatever you want idc bout this page anymore tbh. Razeangst (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"You don't need a source for that" yes, that's how Wikipedia works, and you're wasting everyone's time until you can provide reliable sources. And yes, it is vandalism if you keep pushing unsourced revisions. FunkMonk (talk) 17:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And one last thing the authors are probably sensible you just polly got confused between Eurasiun cave lion and this panthera fossilis and also I added the info with it speaks for itself part, it was just to give you better understanding ik the info is needed Razeangst (talk) 17:48, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah ok man leave it idc bout this page anymore just do what you feel like I am out and also I gave explainations I didn't do it without any context so I think it is not vandalism like how people delte entire articles but whatever let it be Razeangst (talk) 17:50, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And the you don't need the source for that was about basic understanding of a normal english sentence that you don't need a source to understand basic English bruv cmon Razeangst (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[MarciszakStefaniack2010-1] Marciszak, A.; Stefaniak, K. (2010). "Two forms of cave lion: Middle Pleistocene Panthera spelaea fossilis Reichenau, 1906 and Upper Pleistocene Panthera spelaea spelaea Goldfuss, 1810 from the Bísnik Cave, Poland". Neues Jahrbuch für Geologie und Paläontologie - Abhandlungen. 258 (3): 339–351. doi:10.1127/0077-7749/2010/0117.

[Marciszak_et_al.,_2014-2] Marciszak, A.; Schouwenburg, C.; Darga, R. (2014). "Decreasing size process in the cave (Pleistocene) lion Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) evolution – A review". Quaternary International. Fossil remains in karst and their role in reconstructing Quaternary paleoclimate and paleoenvironments. 339–340: 245–257. doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.10.008.

[Sotnikova2014-3] Sotnikova, M.V. & Foronova, I.V. (2014). "First Asian record of Panthera (Leo) fossilis (Mammalia, Carnivora, Felidae) in the Early Pleistocene of Western Siberia, Russia". Integrative Zoology. 9 (4): 517–530. doi:10.1111/1749-4877.12082. PMID 24382145.

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