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Untitled

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WP:INDIA Banner/Rajasthan workgroup Addition

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Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Rajasthan workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Rajasthan or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 07:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

citation and images needed

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Hi I'm a new user.I've edited the entire page to improve it,but am unable of adding images or citations;please help me.120.57.150.227 (talk) 12:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)JERUSHA JUDY ABBOT120.57.150.227 (talk) 12:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Panna's ethnicity

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History quester: The refrences you added regarding Panna ethnicity as Chauhan Rajput, Special:MobileDiff/1090365567 doesn't seems to be reliable history related sources. I checked sources of acclaimed scholars like Rima Hooja's (A History of Rajasthan and The Ahar Culture), Gopinath Sharma's (Mewar and the Mughal Emperors) or Dasharatha Sharma's (Lecture on Rajput history and culture) and none mentions any caste/race of Panna.

  • I checked this page history Special:History/Panna_Dai and noticed another contribution of yours, where you inserted a short description, Special:MobileDiff/1085262917, which clearly doesn't seems to be within WP:NPOV either.
  • You are a responsible editor who has been around for a year or so now, edit constructively.
  • As far as I know from local folk stories of Rajasthan, Panna was a Gujjar who sacrificed her son for Udai Singh II.

Please bring better references, If not the we should remove her caste altogether. @Sajaypal007: Any thoughts regarding Panna's race ? On sources added by History questor ? Thanks. Packer&Tracker (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Packer&Tracker: In my opinion and as far as I have read she was a Gurjar woman and not Khinchi Rajput. Regarding sources except Vir Vinod, other sources seem to be poor and not reliable, and Vir Vinod can be considered as Primary source, also it is quite old too. But seeing Vir Vinod (which was official history commissioned by Udaipur State) mentioning her as Rajput woman, I think I have to check some reliable secondary sources to re-verify if she indeed was from Gurjar caste. Regarding not mentioning her caste on article space, this is no solution to her ethnicity question. If different sources mention different things we can mention both of them. Sajaypal007 (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To answer both of you, none of the historical sources refer Panna as Gujar woman. Long before Vir Vinod was written, the earliest primary source having a reference about Panna, is a late 17th-century book Mewar Rawal Rana Ri Baat, published by Pratap Shodh Sansthan, Udaipur. It identifies Panna being a Khinchi Chauhan (page 57), a sub-clan of Chauhan Rajputs. Another secondary reference is Mewar ke Maharana aur Shanshah Akbar, by Rajendra Shankar Bhatt (1976), it also states that she was a Khinchi Chauhan Rajput (page 14-15).
  • About NPOV, any historical person would have an identity (if mentioned in any historical source) and adding the same on the wiki is not violation of WP:NPOV.
  • Panna's identity of being a Gujar is an invention of recent times, Panna was never mentioned as a Gujar in any of the history books of Mewar.
If either of you have any primary or secondary reference about Panna being a Gujar, you can add it on the page.History quester (talk) 02:48, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@History quester: Please take a look at WP:Primary references.
I think we should rely on secondary scholarly sources for her ethnicity instead of primary texts; (We can add primary references as well If a scholar back up it)
  • There are no historical sources of Mewar (Primary or Secondary) that refer Panna as Gujar. The official history of Mewar, Vir Vinod also mentions her as Khinchi Chauhan Rajput.
  • You are mistaken in reading the footnote in R.V. Somani's book. Somani is not saying that the Bari woman who smuggled out Udai Singh was Panna. He just mentioned that "Udai Singh was smuggled out of Chittor with the help of a woman of Bari caste", referring to the primary source, Rawal Ranaji ri Baat, a 17th century text. This source states that “Panna Khinchi was assisted by a Bari woman, who carried Udai Singh out of Chittor in a basket.” (Mewar Rawal Ranaji ri Baat, page 56-57). It's the same primary source which I have mentioned in my earlier comment.
  • I have mentioned one more secondary source earlier here (page 14-15), which identifies Panna as a Khinchi Chauhan Rajput and narrates the similar story as mentioned by R.V.Somani in the footnotes.History quester (talk) 12:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @History quester: In latest revision, diff; you finally added a high quality scholarly work about Khinchi claim. Rima Hooja is indeed a serious historian & archeologist. However, Hooja also added Sic? there as well. Thanks for bringing a interesting aspect which I never noticed in a decade or so.
    Vir Vinod is not a caste study done under British Raj, it doesn't come under WP:RAJ. Rajendra Shankar Bhatt and Gauri Shankar Ojha's references are added.History quester (talk) 08:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @History quester: AFAIK; Rajender Shankar Bhatt was not a trained historian but any random author with interset in history.
    • G.N Ojha was a serious & respected scholar of his age but having said that, he is dated now, though still a lot credible then Rajendra Shankar Bhatt.
    • Yes, Vir Vinod may not be under WP:RAJ, but still it's a archaic work now.
    @Sajaypal007: Your thoughts ? Packer&Tracker (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hooja is reliable and in absence of other claim we can for time being keep Khinchi one, meanwhile let me search if I can find her mention as Gurjar in any reliable source, which might be an urban legend too. Regarding the word 'sic' used by Hooja, the word is used when author use the same spelling which the source did and the spelling might look different than the actual modern spelling which may make readers confuse, hence the author use the word sic to let readers know that this isn't a typo. The word sic was used by Hooja because Khinchi is written as Kheechee and Rajputani as Rajpootanee. Such weird spellings of names were not uncommon during British period. Sajaypal007 (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Packer&Tracker:, History quester has some good points and I suspect he is correct, some points to be noted, RV Somani is not talking about the same woman, he says Panna Dhai replaced Udai Singh with child of her own, but in footnote mentions a woman of Bari caste smuggled out Udai Singh from Chittor fort. Clearly that woman is different as he states that "a woman" even after Panna dhai was mentioned already just before on the same page. Why go elsewhere, though citation of Ojha given on this article space is of Pratapgarh ka itihas but Ojha's Mewar ka itihas has clear cut written that Panna Dhai saved the prince exchanging him with her own child and a woman of bari caste smuggled him out, I suggest you read that it will clear the confusion regarding Bari caste woman and Panna dhai being different but even Ojha in this book do not mention who Panna Dhai was. I searched GN Sharma's book but didn't find about Panna's ethnicity, a few more books on Mewar and Pratap but nothing, now I checked Jagdish Gehlot's Rajputane ka itihas, which although has a few problems but is a magistarial work on par with Ojha's work on Rajasthan history. And in the first volume on page no 227, it is written that she was from Khinchi Chauhan family. In absolute absence of scholarly work supporting her Gurjar identity, I am inclined to think it is merely an urban legend not supported by serious history. Sajaypal007 (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sajaypal007: Main issue with the references added by Hq is that they are either too dated or are outrightly unreliable for scholarly standards apart from Rima Hooja. These story of Udai Singh II and Panna is more of folk tale and quite obviously no serious scholar like Hooja, Gopinath Sharma, G.N Ojha, Dashratha Sharma will stretch on it much apart from quick reference; (especially caste of Panna)
    • Tbh; this tale that Panna saved Udai & carried him out of Chittor in a basket looks more of fable. Udai Singh was already young enough contray to this story, Rana Sanga died soon after Khanua 1527 disaster, then obviously he must have been 8-9 atleast; (Sanga never enter Chittor either after Khanua). In all likelihood, Udai was around 15-16 at the time. He was probably already married by then as well as Pratap was born within few years from this incident.
    • I never heard about Jadgdish Gehlot, can't comment about him but serious scholars who have written about Mewar in length from Ojha to Sharma's (Dasharatha & Gopinath), Somani etc. do not mention any caste.
    • Here is another source from renowned scholar Dasharatha Sharma & I couldn't found any reference of Panna being a Rajput here either.
    Packer&Tracker (talk) 06:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Tale of carrying Udai Singh in basket is probably not true but this doesn't mean Panna saving Udai Singh in exchange of her son can be untrue as well, even if he was not infant which probably he wasn't, it can certainly be true that Panna exchanged him with her son. The sacrifice of Panna is recorded in many reliable source and that is never in question, its about her being Gurjar or Rajput, while there doesn't seem to be any reliable source mention her as Gurjar but there are some mentioning her as Khinchi rajput, regarding absence of her ethnicity in many sources, absence of her ethnicity in sources doesn't mean she can't be rajput, many source do not indulge in details, and skip many small things, it doesn't mean those sources are against such proposition. Sajaypal007 (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Packer&Tracker and @Sajaypal007
    Leaving aside the small details in the story of saving of Udai Singh's life from Banvir, the overall story is not disputed. Regarding Udai Singh's age, Ojha had pointed out that Udai Singh was not an infant or toddler, but was nearly 15-16 years of age at that time. Some more references, that mention or suggest Panna's identity as a Rajput, here by Dr. Naman P. Ahuja, JNU, Delhi, and another reference here (page 281). These are pointed out to show that her identity was known as a Rajput. History quester (talk) 16:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @History quester: These sources does seems to be competent enough, having said that Ahuja is a art historian, and in the text you added, he wrongly claimed that Udai Singh was six at the time. Could you please add the quotes from Mathur's work as I don't have access to JSTOR due to some other reasons, Thanks. Packer&Tracker (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The chieftain who sacrificed their lives in order to save Chittor fort

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The chieftain who sacrificed their lives in order to save Chittor fort 2409:4064:4D1B:9356:0:0:1E8B:9514 (talk) 14:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2022

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she was from gurjar caste. Why u are trying to change history. Jitna mrji dum lga lo gurjar itihas na kbhi khtm hua h na hoga. Sahil chamain (talk) 07:49, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pannadhai was a Gurjar Sahil chamain (talk) 07:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. >>> Extorc.talk 08:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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