Talk:Pahari-Pothwari

HOLD ON A MOMENT

What is your problem Mr Taivo. can you explain the grounds for reverting with out any reference. dont miss use your edit chair for fun and reverse only you can proof the edits wrong as suppourted by published material. REGARDZZZZZ Frenchdreamer (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The page is for the Pothohari language, so I dont see what this Mirpur issue has anything to do with it. Are you suggesting that Mirpur is not located on the pothohar plateau? Pothohari is the language of the people living in the Pothohar plateau in south Asia.

On a personal note I think the people making these comments are probably from UK. Stereotypes as Mirpuri in UK did not always mean that you were from Mirpur but more about how illiterate a person could be. In Pakistan you would probably equate that to being called a 'jahil' or 'pendu' and 82% of Pakistani Passport migrants (the passport the first generation used to enter UK) in to the UK were from Mirpur and surrounding areas and that probably 90% or more of that 82% were completely illiterate. By illiterate I dont mean they could not speak english but that they had zero level of any kind of education (unable to read or write any language). Numerous people would go to a single person in huge communities to get a letter written to send back home because he was the only one who could read and write Urdu. The receiver of that letter in "Mirpur" would then struggle to find someone who could read and tell them what was written in the letter.

They came here worked hard made good money and became wealthy but were unable to teach their offspring anything but which they learnt at UK schools that is why the 2nd and 3rd generation being brought up in UK are in the state that they are today,i.e. totally lost in the absence of any guiding knowledge. Unaware of what it took to be living in Azad Kashmir, how many people died in the struggle for a seperate homeland for the Muslims of the Sub-continent.

--Topian1 (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

"Most mirpuri speakers are jatts (a clan), whilst others being from varied clans like the kashmiri clan, consisting of sub-clans like mir, khawaja and asab zai/yusuf zai."

This is irrelvent.

"Kashmiri Mirpuri speakers are known to be "hotheaded" and are amongst the bravest in the mirpur and pakistan region."

What planet are you from? You get good and bad in every society.

"Mirpuri is a mostly spoken dialect, there is no form of written mirpuri, and due to political cirumstances, the government hasn't done enough to promote the language. Kashmiri and mirpuri differ slightly"

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are very different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, whereas Mirpuri is Indo-Aryan.

"There are many mirpuri speakers in around mirpur city itself, as well as on the outskirts and neighbouring towns such as jhelum, mangla, kanaylee and dadyal."

Again, irrelvent;Why the spotlight on Mirpuris, remember this page also reflects the Pothohari people.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Imran Azad (talk • contribs)

Also when referring to "Jatts" of Mirpuri origin, it is an occupation it has nothing to do with lineage. Apparantley I've heard that initially there was no such thing as "Jatt" amongst the Mirpuris, it was a Maharaja who placed various labels on the Mirpuris. Refer to this article: http://www.krrc.org/content/view/76/29/

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, but just to make a note there are many Kashmiris who speak many different languages, Mirpuri being just one of many.

And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.148.84 (talk • contribs)

Please stop this!

"The majority of Mirpur orientated Muslims in the UK have given the reputation of Kashmiri being so-called "Hard Men". Claims of this have subsequently been proved with some of the major influences of British Pakistanis in England (particularly Bradford) and Scotland (particularly Glasgow) having parents originated from Mirpur City.

The 2004 Census of the UK records that 87% of British Pakistanis are of Kashmiri Descent, the majority Mirpuri (82%). (references, Ethnologue report for Pahari-Patwari")

The article is in reference to the language not the people and anyway its wrong to stereotype people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.146.206 (talk • contribs)

Replies to The Previous Poster.

Patwari, Pothwahari - numerous different spellings but it refers to the same thing. The language concentrated around Mirpur, Jhelum and the districts in the North of Pakistan in and around the geographical border than Punjab Province has with Azad Kashmir. He's not wrong in saying that in Patwari, that swear is different to in Punjabi in Urdu <--- why he brought it up, i dont know?... but he's right and yes, most of the pakistani people (approximately 89% i last read from census data) originate from Mirpur (and Jhelum + other such districts), with the remaining 9 or 10% of origin being Faisalabad + areas near the city formerly known as Lyalpur (areas such as Kamalia, Sahiwal are included...), so he's not wrong in saying that either and there are less than 2% of pakistani's in the UK from Pakistan's main two cities (Karachi and Lahore) and pathans from the frontier province. As for Mirpuris talking very fast, mirpuri is generally a faster language than both urdu and punjabi - what's wrong with him saying that?... Chinese (Mandarin) and Korean are faster than Japanese... Spanish is faster than Italian (although both are Latin-rooted). Que pasa? What's the matter?

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"Most mirpuri speakers are jatts (a clan), whilst others being from varied clans like the kashmiri clan, consisting of sub-clans like mir, khawaja and asab zai/yusuf zai."

This is irrelvent. Also when referring to "Jatts" of Mirpuri origin, it is an occupation it has nothing to do with lineage. Apparantley I've heard that initially there was no such thing as "Jatt" amongst the Mirpuris, it was a Maharaja who placed various labels on the Mirpuris. Refer to this article: http://www.krrc.org/content/view/76/29/

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You are right, there. Well done

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"Mirpuri is a mostly spoken dialect, there is no form of written mirpuri, and due to political cirumstances, the government hasn't done enough to promote the language. Kashmiri and mirpuri differ slightly"

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, but just to make a note there are many Kashmiris who speak many different languages, Mirpuri being just one of many.

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They are different - that's all that has been established and accepted by scholars + linguists. I hope when ya say Mirpuri you are talking of none other than Potwahari.. cuz that's what it is. People from outside Mirpuri speak the same language.

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"There are many mirpuri speakers in around mirpur city itself, as well as on the outskirts and neighbouring towns such as jhelum, mangla, kanaylee and dadyal."

Again, irrelvent;Why the spotlight on Mirpuris, remember this page also reflects the Pothohari people.

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He doesn't have proper knowledge but I do know what he's trying to say.

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And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

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You are WRONG, mate. There IS a such thing as Mirpuri. It's just that, when the name of a city doesn't allow a uni-lexical adjective to be produced, they say someone is from... "city". But when it is possible, the endings are added on. For example, people from Lahore are known as Lahoris (like me <3), people from London are called Londoners, people from New York (City) are called New Yorkers, etc, etc. People from Lyalpur (Faisalabad) still call themselves Lyalpuri... if you go to huddersfield, where there is a 50:50 split in the town of mirpuri (and ppl from near mirpur) and lyalpuri (and ppl from areas near faisalabad, e.g. kamalia), people will ask you if you are MP or LP (lyalpuri or Mirpuri). Yes, if a city is in a certain province/state, another way to describe someone becomes available. For example, residents of Texas are Texans and Americans. Likehow ppl in Yorkshire tend to be Yorkshiremen and English/British (fuck political correctness). However, the name of Kashmir is used as the connotations are glorified (relatively speaking). If you went to Mirpur in the 60s and 70s, you would have seen how there were almost no men in the basti (small town / large village) and there were all women. I know because my mamoo was in the army and was posted in Mirpur at the time. Also, if you ask a Pakistani in the UK where he is from, most of them will always say Mirpur.. becuz thats how the breakdown is... most are from Mirpur (and few are from areas nearby Mirpur on the punjabi-kashmiri border). The homeland Pakistanis feel that Mirpuris (and other "pendus" <--- not my choice of words) have tarnished their name and arent thrilled with how people from Mirpur + related areas will say they are pakistani to goray yet say they are Kashmiri when talking to fellow Pakistanis from other provinces (usually Punjab)... and when the Pakistani Cricket Team play, all the mirpuris start waving the flag + get down to the matches. The fact is, Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan and people from that province are Pakistani. However, the people from mirpur who have come to England (especially this 3rd generation) are very different to people from other areas of Kashmir. The contrast becomes completely apparent when you look at the ppl of the traditional Kashmiri capital, now in Indian-occupied Kashmir, Srinigar. Not just in terms of the language they speak but interms of respect, values, tradition and honest knowledge of their roots.

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I got a load of mirpuri friends and so naturally iv picked up a little of the language.. but fact is, what iv posted is objective n' true.

Replies to The Previous Poster.

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As for Mirpuris talking very fast, mirpuri is generally a faster language than both urdu and punjabi - what's wrong with him saying that?...

In the same paragraph he had a vulgar and obscene sentence. So I decided the whole paragraph should be deemed implausible. In addition to this I also thought some may take offence; as he mentioned renowned, this I thought denoted sarcasm.

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And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

I acknowledge your reply with regards to this and I take back what I said. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the term Mirpuri amongst some non-Mirpuris holds derogative connotations. It is correct to say they are Kashmiri aswell. Just like the Pushtuns, Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks to name a few living in Afghanistan come under the union of Afghans. Although they are distinct. Just like the Mirpuris and Kashmiris of the vale whom are distinct in terms of language and culture.

However some have a hard time comprehending the fact that they are Kashmiri and begin to question it. Due to the fact that some whom are engrossed in ethnocentrism have very negative pre-conceived, prejudice, discriminatory and stereotypical views of the term Mirpuri contrast this with the term Kashmiri which totally contrasts their stereotypical views of it. And thus the superiority complex comes crashing down.

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With regard to Mirpuris referring to themselves as Kashmiris amongst "fellow" Pakistanis and Pakistani amongst the English just shows their commitment to the cause of Pakistan. If they had a superiority complex over Pakistanis it's quite obvious they wouldn't refer to themselves as Pakistanis yet they do.

They are obviously not going to call themselves Pakistanis amongst their fellow Pakistanis. They identify themselves by a term geographically which is not isolate as opposed to referring to their village or city which in some instances may be ambiguous.

The Mirpuris as you mentioned have a keen interest in Sports when Pakistan is participating, again shows the nationalism in favour of Pakistan rooted within them. Since they have their own government and parliament they can not represent their vote in Pakistan.

I am Mirpuri/Kashmiri whatever you prefer, and I believe the majority of Mirpuris hold the view that they are Pakistani just as well as Kashmiri "through and through".

I don't understand why you question why the Mirpuris call themselves Kashmiri, it's not like they are forging an ethnicity or culture.

What do you mean in terms of respect and values? True, culturally Kashmiris of the Vale and Mirpuris are distinct but to say that one culture in terms of respect and values is superior to the other is just plain wrong.

--82.47.146.235 15:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Replies to the one who contends with Kashmiri unity

Being a student of the discipline of History, and being from a background that holds the importance of history extremely important, I shall first like to point out, amongst the inaccuracies of the Kashmiri bashing that has taken place; that it is incorrect to address somebody from Mirpur as a " Mirpuri", having visited the lovely,scenic and lush region of Mirpur, I have gathered information of vital importance to the whole debate, the fact being that approximately, 50 years ago, there was very little affiliation between the people of Kashmiri mirpur and the word "Mirpuri". Post-Modernist research by students currently studying the discipline of History, has shown that the actual name for the language for the people of the Mirpur division of Kashmir,is "pahari"- they are actually a Pahari speaking peoples. So let us not cling on to this loose rope in the air, by calling people "Mirpuri" or was it "MP"? Let us do away with such nonsense of the sort, allow us to forget unilexical nonsense of the sort that you mentioned.

Secondly, you state that they are dishonest about their history, I find this claim preposterous!.. to say the least. Secondly, studies which have been carried out in the area by various people have shown that many are no longer able to prove their claims due to the fact that the Mangla Dam now covers what used to be the graves of their forefathers, yet when the water level resides, the area of the old historical and symbolic city of original Mirpur shines with its former glory, with its architecture designed by architects of quite a callibre.

Also, my historical research has shown that certain areas of land in the Mirpur region were in possesion of large landowners, who are known to be the ancestors of the people currently living upon the land. Many families have family trees written and recorded over the last century, so that such important facts regarding their ancestory shall not be lost in the midst of time.

Furthermore, countries are known by their borders; Mirpur falls into the former Province of Jammu and Kashmir, and now lies in Azad Kashmir, this is an established fact, not a matter of opinion. Therefore, I shall urge you to embrace this fact with open arms, rather than try to contest with this, for I do take pity upon you for being in such a state. Unless, you can remove the borders physically via a geological phenomenon, I suggest you accept the map of Kashmir for what it is, especially when it is the most highly militarised zone in the world, how you shall manage such a task as removing the borders, I cannot fathom.

Lastly, being a historian, I am truly amazed at the psychology behind certain events and actions, and therefore do not mind me for adding, that I feel that there is a somewhat, forgive me for being so straight to the point , but an "inferiority complex" on the part of some, who romanticise the notion of being kashmiri, yet as we know history and heritage are not things that are in our hands, so therefore some non-Kashmiris, I do not wish to generalise, but a small minority wish they could take the label for themselves, yet do not have the power to do so. As a last piece of advice may I remind the Pakistanis that they should celebrate the diversity of each other, rather than try to bash one another. Allow me to quote Muhammad Ali Jinnah - (paraphrased) "If we stand by labelling ourselves by the provinces we come from, we shall not stand, we shall only stand if we call ourselves Pakistani". Having said this, you should celebrate who you are as ethnic peoples, but not allow it to create enmity between you, and a "superiority" or in some complex cases an "inferiority complex". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.145.7 (talk • contribs)

THE HIDDEN AGENDA

Hi i m not adding a dictionary but pin pointing the very few differences of all punjabi dialects (which only we locals of these dialects can speak) which you foriegners impose as a language under a political agenda of DIVIDE AND RULE. you first declare english of US and Austrailia and South Africa as a different language then try it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanguageXpert (talk • contribs) 08:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the place for making a political point. Your claims need to be sourced. Also, it isn't foreigners who are dividing the language, but the speakers themselves. — kwami (talk) 08:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I am a native potowari speaker....check Pakistan Census 1998 for rawalpindi division language distribution for your kind information...i had already provided you refrences on Saraiki page but your action speaks louder then words that you guys are biased and your agenda is to divide and rule.. u take challenge and learn these dialects and then challenge if i was wrong or right in posting the 30-50 words are only different and those are only due to minor vowel adjustments (U CAN RECHECK IT WITH ANY OTHER NATIVE SPEAKERS)...WE ALL ARE PUNJABI AND NOT EVEN A CHILD HAS LISTENED A WORD LEHNDA LANGUAGE...at a joke u make if u try to proof it a different language...you guys have double standards for english ...you guys have different agenda of spreading voilence instead of unity among people of pakistan and specially province punjab

You're right, the violence in Punjab is caused by Wikipedia articles. You should take us to the Hague.

Regardless, you need to provide WP:reliable sources for your edits. — kwami (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Kwami. Without reliable sources, your edits are just personal opinion. --Taivo (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I do, too. And 'hidden agenda', that's just ridiculous. --JorisvS (talk) 11:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

FYI, LanguageXpert, I have no idea whether Panjabi, Hindko, Saraiki, and Potwari should be considered one language or more than one. And I hardly care. If these were obscure languages no-one had heard of, I would probably lump them together to save the bother of writing separate articles. But this is a political issue: there are people whose identities are very much invested in Saraiki etc. being a distinct language. I can't judge, but I can't trust you or them to judge either, or we simply devolve into a political shouting match. That's what we need sources for, to prove it's not just your say-so. — kwami (talk) 13:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi kwami & Co, if u feel blocking is the solution then you can go ahead, but you forgot the end objectivity of WIKIPEDIA is to provide true and honest facts.....you answer me what is the difference between a language and a dialect?????? LANGUAGE means totally un comprehensible and not mutually intelligible ...while dialect means mutually intelligible and communicate able because there is a difference of vowels few or slight gramical variations and regional influenced words... Potowari is perfectly communicatable and mutually intelligible with very few different words...potowari elected PUNJABI as there mother tongue in 1998 Pakistan census...u can check it by searching on net...Hopefully u will now better able to understand my point of view...i have a lot of references from various authors...But question remains that aint they human like us...the only difference is that they have written book....Written book can be untrue or true WHO KNOWS...bt i challenge you to proof my research wrong...sorry for harsh words but REMEMBER end objectivity is to present a true reflection.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanguageXpert (talk • contribs) 16:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Reference one .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialects_Of_Punjabi.jpg.....Linguist books references...Author name:Doctor K S BEDI Book Name: 3 Indian Languages Page 99, Author name:Doctor Shehbaaz Malik Book Name: Punjabi Linguistics Languages Page 142, Author name:Qureshi Ahmed Hussain Book Name: History of Punjabi Litreture Page 17, Author name:Hafiz Mehmood Sherani Book Name: Urdu and Punjab Page 76 LanguageXpert (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

You are clearly ignorant about Wikipedia procedures, LanguageXpert. When your addition has been reverted, especially when it has been reverted multiple times by multiple editors, you STOP what you are doing, present your evidence clearly on the Talk Page, and build a WP:CONSENSUS. First, you cannot use another Wikipedia article as a reference. That would be clear to you if you had ever read WP:RS. Second, your other references are improperly formatted and don't contain enough information for another editor to locate them and refer to whatever quotes you are presenting. You are still doing nothing more than throwing your word out there and expecting us to believe it because of your user name. --Taivo (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh Taivo You Cant Hide From Genuine Quires Can u answer these questions please Mr. Taivo + Kwami (1) Who are the authors of reliable scientific linguistic works Foreign or locals ?? (2) How can any forigner language expert who cant speak these dialects can classify them as an separate language only on the basis of 200 to 300 word comparison ?? (3) What is the difference between a dialect and language? (4) Can you learn these dialects then challenge my edits? (5) Y AUSTRAILIAN, US , BRTISH, South African english are not classified as different languages with similer level of differences? (6) Y wikipages on these dialects of english contain word comparisons if i m not allowed to post word comparison in these dialects of punjabi...bcoz u remove them by arguing ITS NOT A DICTIONARY? (7). Why these are not reliable refrences with such a famous authors Book name: 3 HINDUSTANI LANGUAGES Page 99 Author: Doctor K S BEDI...Book name: PUNJABI LISANIYAT (LANGUISTIST) Page 142 Author: Shehbaz Malik...Book name: SHORT HISTORY OF PUNJABI LITERATURE Page 17 Author: Qureshi Ahmed Hussain..Book name: URDU IN PUNJAB Page 76 Author: Hafiz Mehmood Shirani (8) You said that other native speakers contested my edited so can u kindly name bcoz i cant see any objecting edit by any native speaker? LanguageXpert (talk) 07:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC) (9) Is wikipedia talk page arguments and logics presented not enough to revert wt u had been doing with out convincing me ? (10) Are you not taking un fair advantage of your position as wikipedia administrators? (11) Has any native speaker objected on my word list which clearly show how correct that was? (12) If I publish a fake "scientific linguistic work" in your mother tongue and relate it to monkey language then will you post it on wikipedia as a scientific linguistic research ??? LanguageXpert (talk) 12:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:BRD. If someone reverts your edits then you have to justify on the Talk Page and build a consensus before re-editing. You have failed miserably at even attempting to build a consensus. If you want us to consider your sources, then you have to provide full publication details so that they are available for our inspection and verification--not just a name and author's name. --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Potwari is a seperate language from hindko and not a transitional dialect

The Hindko language is a daughter language of Potwari, Hindko was a language which was adopted by the pashtuns for some unknown reason, Potwari IS NOT A TRANSITIONAL DIALECT BECAUSE IT'S GRAMMAR ANS SYNTAX IS LESS "PUNJABIFIED" then Hindko, for example in hindko they say vadda for big but in pothwari it's barha which shares a term with Urdu, Hindko is a not a language but a dialectm, potwari has more inventive and deviating features from it's sister language Punjabi, pothwari is a dialect of Punjabi, for example we say "tak" for see and we have our own inflections for example to say inside an object you have to say : Pakistan wich---> Pakistan-ech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnaan1 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Source? — kwami (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Adnan1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.69.145 (talk) 18:12, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Map image breaches policy & has been removed

There is currently a deletion discussion taking place at Commons regarding File:Map on Dialects Of Punjabi Language.jpg, which can be viewed here. Regardless of whether the map image is deleted at Commons, I think that it needs to be removed from all English Wikipedia articles because it breaches our synthesis policy. The image creator has provided a long list of sources in the deletion discussion and it is evident from those that none contain all of the information shown in the image, nor is it a simple task to work out which bits of information were gleaned from which source(s). We simply do not permit people to aggregate information in this way. It should also be noted that the chances are very high that the various sources did not even adopt the same methodology in compiling their data, which makes the analysis of the creator even more suspect.

I have removed the image because the Commons discussion may end up as something other than "delete" and yet the thing is still invalid on English Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 21:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Map was deleted on two reasons. 1... Commons deletion discussion but now Deletion request by Sitush has been rejected on Wikimedia Commons. 2... Sitush has a self perception that map is synthesis, which is actually not because it is based on latest research of 2007 in the Publication named 'The Indo-Aryan Languages' by George Cardona and Dhanesh Jain. So I am re inserting it. Unless Sitush prove it again as a synthesis and refer me the areas of map being synthesized also mentioning the different publications along with page numbers where from in his kind opinion I have synthesized the map.Maria0333 (talk) 08:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Potwari people

I have accepted the IP's edit removing this section as it was unsourced and hence the IP's judgement takes precedence over status quo, but I have no personal opinion of it and another user is free to revert it back with a source or a atleast a good reason. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It was only added some half an hour before the anon's removal, so the anon actually reverted it to the status quo. --JorisvS (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Potwari people need coverage in seprate article. 39.60.177.82 (talk) 17:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 28 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Pothwari. Clear consensus to move from the current name, and it looks like this is the most agreeable choice. (non-admin closure) Bradv 03:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Pothohari dialect → ? – The article's sources use Pahari-Potwari and Pothwari. —  AjaxSmack  01:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose not only on basis of similar request for other western Punjabi dialect, saraiki and hindko. Some where its potowari, pahari, pothori, pothohari dialectYoyi ling (talk) 08:43, 28 October 2016 (UTC) – This user has been blocked for using multiple accounts. – Uanfala (talk) 13:52, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
• Move to main title per WP:NCLANG as "dialect" is an unnecessary disambiguator – Pothohari is a dab page that doesn't really disambiguate between anything. Now, what the main title should be is a different question. "Pothohari" seems to be the preferred term in the two standard reference works on the area – Masica 1991 and Shackle 2003. "Pothwari" is used in this sociolinguistic survey and I'd rather accord to it more weight as it's more comprehensive and recent. "Pahari-Potwari" is a linguists' construct ("Pahari" and "Potwari" are similar enough to be lumped together), but if the article covers both, then this makes it a suitable title too. – Uanfala (talk) 10:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Clarifying that, in the absence of further evidence, the most appropriate title at this stage appears to be Pothwari. – Uanfala (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

• Masica, Colin P. (1991). The Indo-Aryan languages. Cambridge language surveys. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-23420-7. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Shackle, Christopher (2003). "Panjabi". The Indo-Aryan languages. Routledge language family series. Y. London: Routledge. pp. 581–621. ISBN 978-0-7007-1130-7. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)

• Move, Pothohar is the region, and Pothohari is the dialect. There's nothing too confusing, so I don't see any problem in removing the unnecessary disambiguation. My only concern however is if the stand-alone title will be sufficient in case an article on Potohari-speaking people is created (who technically should have an article of their own, as the majority ethnolinguistic group of northern Punjab and Azad Kashmir). Would that article just be called "Pothoharis" with a hatnote on top of this article redirecting readers to there? Mar4d (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
  • The fact that Pothoharis or Pothohari people (which currently is a rather pointless redirect) haven't been created yet is a strong indication that the language variety is the primary topic here. And when and article about the ethnic group gets created, then yes, a hatnote would be the standard way to disambiguate. – Uanfala (talk) 12:22, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. Also note the move proposal at Talk:Hindko dialect. What will happen to the other related "x dialect" articles? Would they be renamed too? Filpro (talk) 21:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Some are primary topics (Shahpuri), others aren't (Multani). We could judge on a case-by-case basis. Also noting that for most of them the use of the term "dialect" doesn't come with an ideological WP:POV and hence can't get us into the same quagmires that have become of Talk:Saraiki dialect and Talk:Hindko. – Uanfala (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
  • As for generally deciding whether to include "language" or "dialect" in article titles, it could be nice if in all cases we could follow a single authority. There's an informal proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Language vs. dialect in South Asia: can we choose a single authority to apply across the board?. – Uanfala (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Pothwari, and make Pahari-Potwari a redirect to this page. Putting dialect in the page title is clearly in violation of WP:NCLANG because the common usage regards it as a "language". Even if linguists classify it as a dialect, WP:NCLANG says we should follow common usage rather than the scientific analysis in the page titles. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:16, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

• Not Move No violation of originalWP:NCLANG except [1] added one day ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.69.145 (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Nice try. But Uanfala's addition basically explicates what was already in there for quite a while. In any case, if you want to contest WP:NCLANG, you need to go to its talk page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

@K 3 Convention: Articles on languages can be titled with the bare name of the language where this is unambiguous (e.g. Bokmål) or where the language is unquestionably the primary topic for the name (e.g. Arabic). In other cases, an article title with the natural disambiguator "... language" is preferred (e.g. English language). Where a name is shared between a language and the corresponding ethnic or national group, as is the case with most such names in English, experience shows that a search for which of these has "primary" status is most often futile. Therefore, barring exceptional circumstances, a pair of disambiguated article titles of the format "X language"/"X people" is generally recommended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.69.145 (talk) 02:42, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended discussion

• Oppose with surprised at level of WP:FORUMSHOPING @Uanfala you not even being native had been raising same questions on different Western Punjabi dialect pages and getting oppositions and complete answers from other users still you keep on scratching same thing. You are good at English then please leave Punjabi aside and first try your strange anti dialect stance over English (A language you have full command). First English_language here title is Language but if we apply your common name philosophy then It should be English. Second, there are Pages on British English , American English , Canadian English and near 50 approx more similar pages. Which are nation wise dialects / accent therefore we add country name and then English with the name. Third, there are Cheshire dialect , Cumbrian dialect , Lancashire dialect and approx. 50 more regional dialects so we add dialect but if we apply your philosophy these should be Cheshire, Cumbrian , Lancashire etc. Fourth, We add Accent to titles like Lancashire dialect and accent , Yorkshire dialect and accent and many more. Fifth, We add creole to these Army_creole, Belizean_Creole, Miskito_Coast_Creole and more and more. Sixth we also add pidgins to pages Hawaiian Pidgin English American Indian Pidgin English Seventh even we add artificial descriptions Multicultural_London_English General American Broad, general and cultivated Australian[[2]], Basic_English, Globish_(Gogate), Special English, Simplified_Technical_English

This was just English example. There are hundreds of other language examples. We on wikipedia use linguistic tags to common names to maintain linguistic classification clear for users who visit us to study linguistics. We can not misguide others. I Hope now this request move along with other two will be scraped to save users precious energy and time. ₯€₠€₯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.84.196 (talk) 12:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC) Note: this IP is a sockpuppet of Yoyi ling. – Uanfala (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Main Issue It had been extended edit war by Uanfala [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] .

• Despite nearly 10 Wikipedians not agreeing with his views on talk pages of effected Talk pages.
• He cherry picks and tries to define dialects in to Language.
• Wikipedia is not a dictionary.
• Wikipedians can not cherry pick.
• Wikipedians can not impose a point a view.
• Wikipedians move with consensus.
• Wikipedia is an informational project. It can not misguide about language hierarchy.
• Only standardisation of few dialects can not make them language. However few follow this rule for defining Hindko Saraiki Potwari as language. He cherry pick those.
• Even those "few" along with "opposite others" have details whether "Explicit" or "Implicit" which demonstrate a common hierarchy Language Family: Indo European, Branch: Indo Iranian, Sub branch: Indo Aryan, Macro Language: Punjabi, Language: Western Punjabi, Dialects: Potwari Hindko Saraiki and many others, Sub dialects: North Hindko South Hindko.
• All such linguistic sources are mentioned / added by many wikipedians.
• If we accept Uanfala version of "cherry pick" and "Defining" then we will end up with a dilemma mentioned by User Flipro on this move request for 30 odd Punjabi dialects [8]. ₯€₠€₯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.51.204.132 (talk) 02:03, 1 November 2016 (UTC) Note: this IP is a sockpuppet of Yoyi ling. – Uanfala (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Solution/ Closure request : Disambiguation page be maintained for potowari people , potwari dialect and potwar region and similary for hindko and saraiki. User Uanfala be topic ban for Disruptive editing (Edit war – Cherry pick – Forum shopping) . Status quo for all Punjabi dialect articles prior to disruption be maintained. Scheme of things prior to disruption was 1. TOP: in line with language hierarchy showing ‘Dialect of western punjabi’ pointed by Deaed and geographical areas where spoken . 2. CLASIFICATION: showing details in larger canvas from Indo European to Indo Aryan. 3. LANGUAGE VS DIALECT: detailing Indo Aryan dilemma. Especially in context of dialect and standardization of dialect based on political goals / pressures. I recall One member gave a source how British Govt used Language policy to conduct 19’s Grierson survey to divide Punjabi in to Western / Eastern to avoid Sikh aggressive rebellions. Then post partition new province movements for Hinko Saraiki and Potwari dialect speakers. 4. FEATURES: details about grammar, syntax, phonology and writing system.Yoyi ling (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC) Note: this user has been blocked for abusing multiple accounts. – Uanfala (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 17 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved; procedural close, See SPI —SpacemanSpiff 12:58, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

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Pothwari → Pothwari Boli – WP:COMMONTERM and WP:RECOGNIZABLE for the term "Pothwari Boli". Motugang (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Support As per linguist Pothwari is a dialect of Punjabi. Pothwari refer to people of Pothwar region.Betagee (talk) 12:29, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article's title (again)

In light of the recent expansion, I think it's clear that the current title doesn't optimally represent the scope of the article, which now more explicitly covers both Pahari and Pothwari. Should the title be changed to Pahari-Pothwari (or Pahari Pothwari) – more or less the terms used on ethnologue and glottolog respectively, but apparently not common in the literature – or should we go for a more natural title like Pahari and Pothwari? Pinging participants from the last discussion: Bradv, AjaxSmack, Mar4d and Kautilya3; excluding those that are now blocked or topic-banned). – Uanfala (talk) 04:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Should we not stick to the WP:COMMONNAME, which would appear to be Pothohari (spelt after the Pothohar Plateau)? Mar4d (talk) 08:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

We would if the article were only about the language of the Pothohar Plateau. But in its current state, the article also covers the language of most of Azad Kashmir, whose common name is "Pahari". It's this whole language complex (or group of dialects) that ethnologue has decided to call "Pahari–Potwari" and glottolog has chosen to refer to as "Pahari Potwari". It's conceivable that we might want to eventually have separate articles about Pothwari and Pahari, but we don't really have a glut of editors interested in writing about that, do we? Besides, the two topics will be really difficult to disentangle: it appears to be a case of a dialect continuum without any linguistically natural borders, and the two common names of "Pahari" and "Pothwari" overlap in a large part of their areas (the districts around Mirpur and in the British diaspora, where both names appear to be current). As for the spelling variants, during the last RM I got the impression that "Pothwari" was more common in recent literature than either "Pothohari" or "Potwari". – Uanfala (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I see, that would make sense. There are minor but not absolutely discernible differences between the dialects of Mirpur/Kashmir and the Potohar/northern Punjab regions. Pahari is indeed used widely as the name, but so is Pothohari, depending on where the dialects are spoken. I would support a move to Pahari-Pothwari. One thing I'd like to see confirmed is the spelling of "Pothwari" as there appear to be a lot of alternatives (Potohari, Potwari, Pothohari, Potohari etc.). If Pothwari is common, we'll stick to that though ideally the language and the plateau it is named after should have the same spelling really. Mar4d (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I've had a look again, and at least in the linguistics literature of the last 15 years or so, "Pothwari" appears to be more common: it's the spelling used in this article's sources (particularly the major surveys by Lothers and Lothers) as well as in the two papers (not cited in the article) dedicated to the topic in the KJLR volumes I have access to. This is also visible from the titles in the (modest) bibliography in the glottolog entry. A broader google search comes up with comparable numbers of hits – 109, 332, 128 and 151 for Pothwari, Potwari, Pothohari and Potohari respectively. Judging from these results, Potohari appears about 40% more common than Pothwari, and Potwari has twice as many, but among the results there appears to be a higher proportion of rubbish (stuff like empty pages that have long lists of automatically generated keywords that contain the term). My instinct would be to disregard these results (too unreliable, too small to be significant) and go for the usage in recent reliable sources. In linguistics literature, "Pothwari" clearly predominates, but I don't have any idea what the picture is outside this field. What's your opinion? – Uanfala (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Right, that's fine. We should go by what the reliable sources use as most common. As far as my opinion is concerned, "Pothwari" certainly appears to be very common in local pronunciation as compared to Potohari (with the 'h' instead of 'w'). However, it's not always necessary that the spelling and pronunciation of a common word align. In this case, since you have put up evidence, it is easier to say which spelling variation to go for. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 02:06, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Good. So it's Pahari-Pothwari, then? If there's no further input in the next couple of days, I'll place a request for a renaming. – Uanfala (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the idea of using Pahari-Pothwari purely on linguistic bases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KTisori (talk • contribs) 03:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Number of speakers in India

This is about the detailed table at the end of the "Pahari" section [9]. It gives the district-wise distribution of "Pahari" speakers according to the census. This is certainly useful data, and in some cases it may be a good representation of the actual number of speakers of Pahari–Pothwari, but the correlation is not perfect. The languages of the southeast of the state (like Bhadarwahi), are also popularly referred to as "Pahari", so many of the returns for those districts are not relevant for the Pahari of this article. On the other hand, quite a few speakers of Pahari/Pothwari would identify their language using other names, like "Punchi", and if I remember correctly these are counted separately by the census. So all in all, the census figures undercount the speakers of Pahari in some cases and overcount them in others. I don't think we should be using them here unless we give lengthy qualifying statements, but then we would likely veer deep into WP:OR territory. I think it's best if we simply omit these figures entirely. Toddy1, what are your thoughts? – Uanfala (talk) 19:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Jammu and Kashmir (including Ladakh) had 13,689 people who self-identified their mother tongue as Ponchi (code 005054) in the 2011 census. Of these, 11,402 lived in Jammu district. This compares with 977,860 people in J&K who identified their mother tongue as Pahari (code 006439). So if you think the census made an error in classifying these as different languages, the error is only 1.4% across J&K. If that kind of error is unacceptable, then you are saying that there should be no data, only opinion. In my experience, opinion not backed up by data is usually rubbish.

The issue of what languages are the same as other languages is a matter of academic debate. I was recently reading how modern academics believe that ancient Assyrian and Babylonian were dialects of the same language, whereas the people at the time these languages were spoken considered them to be different languages. So you will have to forgive people in J&K in giving their mother tongue the way they do, and the specialists consulted by the Indian census in making decisions that you disagree with. If you can find reliable sources that comment on the data, then that is useful. If reliable sources explicitly state that we should consider combining results from four specified languages, we could have a table showing columns for each of them, with a total column. But this is only OK, if justified by a reliable source, and then only if done in a way that allows users to see for themselves what difference it makes.

If you look at the articles on the districts of J&K you will see that they have language tables. These have been pruned at 0.01% (i.e. if the number of people of a particular mother tongue did not round to as much as 0.01% they are included under "others"). The tables contain the mother tongue code for each language because this makes it verifiable.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, we could try accounting for Poonchi and the other names for Pahari/Pothwari by choosing suitably rounded numbers so that they will not have any impact on the visible figures. But this only solves one of the two problems. And I don't think I see a way to deal with the other one: figuring out what part of each "Pahari" figure is for this Pahari rather than one of the other languages with the same name.
If this sort of data has been added to the district articles, then the same concerns apply there as well. Last year, I cleaned up the language bits in the Uttarakhand district articles so that they don't give misleadingly precise figures, but now that I look again I see that detailed tables have recently been added there. Look at Champawat district, the table there states there are 193 Pahari speakers in the district. Which Pahari language is that? In all likelihood, that's either Kumauni or Garhwali (both of which are commonly called "Pahari"), so this figure doesn't really mean much, and including it separately is misleading.
Anyway, you said something about opinions not backed by the data being rubbish. In principle, that's true, but here there's a decent amount of literature on the topic, and the flipside of the statement is equally valid: data without understanding is not any better. – Uanfala (talk) 00:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The maps

At one time or another, this article has featured one or another of a set of three maps:

• File:Pahari-Potohari-Hindko Map.jpg
• File:Languages and Dialects of Lahnda.png
• File:North Lahnda Map.png

At the moment, only the first one appears in the article (the other two were removed without explanation just now, and I can imagine they may easily be put back in).

Can we get to some sort of informed decision about each of them? The pros are that they're all clear and readable, and that the information in them appears plausible enough (though I haven't been able to look in detail at everything displayed in them). The cons are that they don't cite sources, and that they, somewhat annoyingly, feature visible image credits.

So, thoughts anyone? – Uanfala (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

The people of the Pothwar Plateau are Punjabi

We, the Pothwari speakers of the Pothwar Plateau are Punjabi. Why is there no reference to the Punjabi people when there is a very clear one to the Pahari people in the very introduction?: "In Kashmir, speakers of Pahari-Pothwari are known as Pahari people". It's only fair to also include: "In the Pothwar Plateau, speakers of Pothwari are known as Punjabis"

Pahari-Pothwari speakers are not a monolith. There is a very clear divide between those of AJK and those of the Plateau. Those from AJK may not wish to be associated with Punjab, but those of us who are from the Plateau proudly consider ourselves Punjabi, and we have a very similar culture to that of the rest of the Punjab.

I believe it would be misleading to reference the Pahari people in the article without also referencing the Punjabis. Both are key parts of the Pothwari speaking community.

I therefore wish to include "In the Pothwar Plateau, speakers of Pothwari are known as Punjabis" in the article. Can I proceed?. If anyone has anything to say on this matter do let me know please!

EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

From the little I know, it does appear that what you're saying is correct. However, in order for this statement to be added to the article, you need a source that supports it. That's the most basic requirement for anything added to Wikipedia (see WP:V). If this is the first time you're dealing with references here, see WP:REFB. And by the way, I've just removed the mention of the Paharis of Kashmir that you refer to [10]. If anything of this kind is added back, it should be cited to a good source, ideally an academic publication that goes into some detail about the people's identity (I understand such a thing may be difficult to immediately come by, but that's the sort of sourcing we're striving to build our articles on in the long term). – Uanfala (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources on Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi

I'm looking into sources relevant to Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi. The following source is cited in the articles of Doabi and other dialects to support their status of being a dialect of Punjabi:

• "Punjabi University, Patiala". Archived from the original on 2017-07-31. Retrieved 2011-03-29.

Would this source give sufficient grounds to mention Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi in this article? Any ideas? EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

This is not a reliable source for such claims (see WP:BLOGS and WP:RSCONTEXT). – Uanfala (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

A discussion on the Future Tense

This Future tense is commonly used throughout the Punjab province such as in the Jhangvi, Shahpuri, and Dhani dialects. (Jhang, Chinot, Khanewal, Khushab, Chakwal, Tala Gang, Attock, Sargodha, Mandi Bahudin, Sahiwal, Pakpattan) and also in the Hazara division (Hindko) and Southern Punjabi (Saraiki belt commonly known nowadays)

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Isn't it a bit misleading to call it a comparision with Punjabi? It makes it seem as if Punjabi lacks this tense. I am a native speaker of Jatki Punjabi and I have added a reference.

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Lets discuss :) Noorisaboyname (talk) 12:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Pothohari has two more interesting features that I would wish to add.

I am unsure what the proper linguistic terminology should be for the following concepts.

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Pothohari: MaahRay aastay vii ghinee achhee'n

Dhani: Mainday aastay vii ghin aavee'n

Jatki: Meray aastay vii lae aavee'n

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Pothohari: Kaday tikkii tey behii vii jaayaa kar

Dhani/Jatki: Kaday tikk ke beh vii jaayaa kar

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Pothohari: Theek hoii gyaa

Dhani/Jatki: Theek ho gya

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Pothohari: Us kii saara kujh changi tarah samjhaaii tey muRii achhee'n

Dhani/Jatki: Oh nu saara kujh changi tarah samjhaa ke muR aavee'n/

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Pothohari: Miki vii naal lyii/ghinii julso?

Dhani/Jatki: Menu vii naal ghin/lae veyso?

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And the second.

Pothohari: Dhyaanay naal Tur, Araamay naal beh,

Jatki: Dhyaan naal Tur, Araam naal beh

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Pothohari: Raatii nii rotii changi honi ke dihaaray ni?

Jatki: Raat dii rotii changi hondi ke dihaar di?

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Pothohari: Namaazay na veylaa hoii gya ae, maseetay vich na dissyaa taa'n khair koi nahi

Jatki: Namaaz da veylaa ho gya ae, maseet vich na dissya taa'n khair koi nahi

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The first one shows that verbs when ending in their root forms take an "ee" sound at the end.

The second shows that Pothohari has Instrumental forms for nouns even when they do not end in a vowel: Example:

Pothohari: Eh maahRa jaNa ae, Iss jaNay kii kujh na aakhee'n

Jatki: Eh mera jaNa ae, Iss jaNay nu kujh na aakhee'n

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But

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Pothohari: Eh maahRa ghaar ae, tey is ghaaray naal miki bahoon muhabbat ae

Jatki: Eh mera ghar ae, tey is ghar naal menu bahoon muhabbat ae

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For the second feature I have an some linguistic evidence from Wilson's Shahpuri dictionary where he discusses this feature of Northern Dialects.

The second feauture is in Hindko and Attock Punjabi as well but the first feature is specific to Pothohari, Pahari and Dogri. Noorisaboyname (talk) 12:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2024

Pahari-Pothwari is not spoken in the districts of Muzaffarabad, Hattian Bala and Neelam valley. This is a big misconception. The Hindko dialect of the Punjabi language is spoken in district Muzaffarabad, Neelam, and Hattian bala. But your article tells that Pahari-Pothwari is spoken in district Muzaffarabad, Neelam and Hattian Bala, which is wrong. There are many differences in the pronounciation of words, and of the words themselves between the hindko spoken in the Muzaffarabad division, and the pahari spoken in the Punch and Mirpur divisions of Azad Kashmir. For example, the word 'down' in Pahari-Pothwari is 'brhein', but in hindko the word down is 'talay'. The word 'I' in Pahari-Pothwari is 'meke', but in hindko it is 'mugo', or 'ma'. A speaker of Pahari-Pothwari will say 'khond juldea?', meaning 'where are you going?'. Meanwhile a speaker of hindko will say 'kutha julda ae?' meaning 'where are you going?'. My request is that please remove all those parts in this article which tell that Pahari-Pothwari is spoken in the Muzaffarabad division, and instead in this article tell that hindko is spoken in the Muzaffarabad division. Usairem Ishrat (talk) 11:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hindko

Hindko is language not dialect of Punjabi 73.90.100.165 (talk) 12:01, 3 July 2024 (UTC)