Talk:Overman Committee

Front page summary

Not sure if this is right place, but the front page summary of the article has the following:

After World War I ended in November 1918 and the German threat lessened, it turned its attention to communist Bolshevism. Bolshevism had appeared as a threat during the Red Scare of 1919–20 after the Russian Revolution in 1917 saw the Bolsheviks take power in Russia.

The chronology seems a bit confusing, as it suggests the threat appears in 1919-20, but the committee turns it attention to it at the end of 1918 as the war ends. From the article my understanding of the sequence would be more like:

After World War I ended in November 1918 and the German threat lessened, it turned its attention to communist Bolshevism. Bolshevism had appeared as a threat after the Russian Revolution in 1917 saw the Bolsheviks take power in Russia, leading to the Red Scare of 1919–20.

As this text isn't copied from the article, it probably doesn't matter as it will essentially disappear in a few hours anyway, but it seemed odd to me. --81.153.144.130 (talk) 15:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. The article itself could be improved with respect to its handling of the Bolshevik & Red Scare business. The Red Scare is about more than "ideas" infiltrating the US -- agitators, anarchists, etc. But I'll wait until it's not linked from the main page. I've been working on it intermittently anyway. I also think the reference to Prohibition is odd.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Brewing

I am not contesting the fact of Nebraska's vote. It's your linkage of that to the Overman Committee's decision to investigate Bolshevism that I find problematic.

You interpret Mittelman to mean that Prohibition forced Overman to end his investigation of the brewers and he therefore needed a new target. Mittelman herself says (p. 83) that Overman was investigating "Brewing Interests and German and Bolshevik propaganda." Even when the breweries shut down the committee could continue its investigation, which was, after all, an investigation of individuals and their behavior vis-a-vis foreign ideologies, not the brewing process. But the Committee was done with that part of its investigation in any case and had already turned to Bolshevism with Anderson's testimony at the end of its hearings about brewing.

Yes, Mittelman says (p. 82) that the "final blow" to the brewing industry came from the Wartime Prohibition Act, etc. Not a word about Overman shifting from brewers to Bolshevism. Nothing about him needing a new target.

At the same time, an ad hoc committee like Overman's can always go out of business. It's not like it needs a new subject to investigate.

And just when did Prohibition go into effect? Almost a full year after Overman starts his Bolshevism phase: January 16, 1920.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the usage of the word "needs" is inappropriate, but I'm not sure about the rest of your argument. However, Mittelman is the only source that discusses Prohibition, so I guess you could be right. Feel free to remove the sentence. Bsimmons666 (talk) 01:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

"Red Scare of 1919-20"

First of all, the First Red Scare page says the scare lasted from 1917 until 1920. Also, the committee conducted most of its investigations into German brewers in 1918, and that was definitely a xenophobic reaction as part of the scare. So I'd advocate just leaving it at "First Red Scare". Bsimmons666 (talk) 22:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The First Red Scare entry is "under construction" by me. About 95% of what is there is stuff I've written. Its proper dates are 1919-1920, and I have lots of citations for that, including, as just one example: Robert K. Murray, Red Scare: A Study in National Hysteria, 1919–1920. But out of respect for what was there before I have been proceeding by adding to the "body" of the First Red Scare entry first. I have just a final section to add, something like "Collapse," and then I will rewrite the section called "Origins" and then finally the summary at the top and change the dates as I do so. There's a little discussion of this on the First Red Scare talk page. The entry used to be entirely about anarchism and the anarchist bombings of 1919, which are only piece of the Red Scare and have their own entry anyway. And when that is done I will modify the Red Scare entry to correspond. I guess it's just building from the bottom up. Also summaries can be tough.

There are two distinct phases of xenophobia in this period. One is the anti-German hysteria of the war years. That then morphs into a different phenomenon called the Red Scare. There is no Wikipedia entry that I can find for the anti-German activity, though I often come across some information that would belong on such an entry, everything from American Legion vigilantes to arrests under the Espionage Act of 1917, and attempts to ban the teaching of German which I added to the American Defense Society. I've been collaborating on a related article, Karl Muck, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, interned as a German spy. And I've done a very little on German American internment that relates to anti-German hysteria. Mostly I've just been adding to the sources there.

The distinction between anti-German wartime super-patriotism and the post-war Red Scare would be clearer if we had a good name for the anti-German hysteria, but I haven't seen one.

BTW, what I would like to see changed is this sentence: "The Overman Committee did not achieve any lasting reforms." Committees normally propose legislation. Did this Committee? If it did, the fact that it was or wasn't passed belongs here. (And "reforms" is weighted -- have lasting impact would be more neutral, if hackneyed.) How did the Committee wrap up its work?

Sorry to go on at such length. Just avoiding work on First Red Scare

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Natl Assn of Manufacturers

I've deleted this sentence. It cites a publication that mentions the "Overman Committee," but it's a different Overman Committee. The date of the publication is 1913!

The National Association of Manufacturers criticized the Committee's objective as "manufactur[ing] Democratic campaign thunder".

I will remove the publication in question from the Bibliography as well.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Aha I completely missed that. Thanks. Bsimmons666 (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

References