Talk:Ottoman Egypt

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 08:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Egypt Province → Egypt Province, Ottoman Empire – need for standard Ottoman subdivsion title format. See WP:RM page for similar requests. Sample: Bosnia Province, Ottoman Empire. See Subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire for details of Ottoman subdivisions and Category:Provinces of the Ottoman Empire for list of pages.

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose Pointless pursuit of an unnecessary uniformity. If this disambiguated, it might be worth doing; but there is no need for a long name, which will usually require piping or redirection. Septentrionalis 20:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support This change should be made for conformity. --Quinlan Vos 11:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support - places the province in time vis-a-vis Aegyptus Province LuiKhuntek 07:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support. —Nightstallion (?) 08:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

On Second Thought

With all due respect, given the existence of the page "History of Ottoman Egypt," the present page seems definitely redundant and a bit off point anyway, since it talks about the Mehmedalids and the Intervention, ignoring the earlier period of "direct" Turkish rule, such as that was. Would it be indecent of me to propose that this page simply be deleted?

Terry J. Carter (talk) 00:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Title

• "Egypt Eyalet" -Llc ?
• Ottoman "Eyalet of Egypt" -Llc 5

Takabeg (talk) 04:44, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Dubious

The opening section says this:

"Egypt was always a difficult province for the Ottoman Sultans to control, due in part to the continuing power and influence of the Mamluks, the Egyptian military caste who had ruled the country for centuries. As such, Egypt remained semi-autonomous under the Mamluks until it was invaded by the French forces of Napoleon I in 1798."

The idea that the Mamluk administration continued in Egypt after the Ottoman conquest and that the Mamluks continued to dominate the country was thoroughly disproven almost two decades ago by the work of Jane Hathaway, whose work is even cited in the article: see The Politics of Households in Ottoman Egypt: The Rise of the Qazdaglis. Chamboz (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Recent edits

Template:https://ebook.univeyes.com/155489 is not a WP:RS. We should get a better source. Frietjes (talk) 21:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes like this book is from around 1924 and this book is written by an European and we know that the Karamanli had salloum on some maps which clearly an interesting subject because those maps were often after the Karamanli fall.

this book explains that at the time 1815 the Karamanli had a rebellion in Cyranaica the defeated the rebellions who fled to salloum. they got welcomed by Muhammad Ali Pasha which at the time there was rumors about him having a plan to invade north africa ( i have an article for that but I forgot where I will get )

thus angered the Karamanli who led a campaign of over 1000 men to invade salloum which they did Muhammad Ali sued for peace . gave them the city Las davas (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Las davas, that website is covered with advertisements. you need to provide an actual reference, not just a URL for an ad site. Frietjes (talk) 13:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes that it's not the website it's the book itself if it's about the website ok bet i can get a better one with the same book Las davas (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 29 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus that the article should be moved, and that it needs to be changed to better include the period after 1867. (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Egypt Eyalet → Ottoman Egypt – "Eyalet" is a Turkish term rarely used in English, not even particularly used in English references about this topic (who simply use "province"), so for general readers it's needlessly obscure and doesn't immediately convey the main topic described in the lead; i.e., Egypt as a division of the Ottoman Empire. "Ottoman Egypt" appears to be a far more WP:COMMONNAME when looking up ngrams ([1]) or comparing the number of hits on Google Books for "Ottoman Egypt" (50,100 [2]) versus "Egypt Eyalet" (1,370 [3]). R Prazeres (talk) 18:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:57, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The Khedivate was also Ottoman. I'm not sure about the implication that 1867 represents the point where Egypt ceases to be Ottoman. Srnec (talk) 20:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking of that too. I don't think the scope should terminate at 1867, regardless of the title, and I note that the article actually covers the period up until the protectorate in 1914 (and links to both History of Egypt under the Muhammad Ali dynasty and Khedivate of Egypt for those sections) and even the lead mentions that it remained de jure an Ottoman province until 1914 (and I don't see proper citations backing the claim that it formally ceased to be an "eyalet" in 1867, which may or may not be post-hoc WP:OR). The whole topic needs more citations to WP:RS, but it seems like this can be sorted with minor changes to the lead to reflect actual article content. (I think 1881 would also be a logical end point, if justified with sources.) R Prazeres (talk) 20:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I accept that: an Ottoman Egypt covering article with sub-articles like History of Egypt under the Muhammad Ali dynasty and Khedivate of Egypt—and others in the future. Support. Srnec (talk) 00:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Egypt has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Arab world has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. HappyWith (talk) 20:41, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article scope, general notes

Per the comments in the merge discussion above, I've revised parts of the lead and the infobox to reflect the fact that the article actually covers the period up to the 1914 and that Egypt was formally part of the Ottoman Empire until then. As mentioned above, the article lead already said this, and that's also supported by reliable sources (e.g. Cambridge History of Egypt, volume 2, p.245)

More generally, there may be other clean-up needed as well. The lead contradicts itself somewhat by saying that Muhammad Ali established the "Khedivate" in 1805 and then saying that this status was granted in 1867, and there's no source cited for either claim. (The Khedivate of Egypt article isn't much help there either.) Other parts of the article are still not well-sourced and some appear to be entirely based on a single old source (Encyclopedia Britannica 1917). R Prazeres (talk) 23:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The state's name

How this country has wars with Ottoman Empire and called Ottoman Egypt?! The name should be "Egypt". I hope this is an honest mistake. Thanks Crimsonalfred2022 (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Do not move the article again without discussion. This has been clearly discussed already above in accordance with Wikipedia's relevant policies. You haven't provided any valid reason for returning to the old name other than a personal opinion, which isn't how Wikipedia works. R Prazeres (talk) 01:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding more sources

Just making a clearer note here about the maintenance template I added: most of the history section (most of the current article) is based on a 1911 edition of Enyclopaedia Britannica, possibly also borrowing text directly from it (because it's in public domain). In the long term, the article should be updated with more references, including more recent ones. It's not that any information from 1911 is necessarily outdated, but for the sake of ensuring the article reflects a wider academic understanding of the topic.

If helpful, I've quickly listed some potentially useful references here. Any future editors interested in improving the article and looking for a place to start could use these. Feel free to add more suggestions below:

• The Cambridge History of Egypt (1998) is a common reference and should be freely available at archive.org here.
• al-Sayyid-Marsot, A History of Egypt: From the Arab Conquest to the Present (2007) is partly accessible here.
  • Same author also wrote Egypt in the Reign of Muhammad Ali (1984), partly accessible here.
• Raymond, Cairo (1993, translated in 2000), is freely available here. Although it's focused on Cairo, it can still be useful.
• Hanna, Ottoman Egypt and the Emergence of the Modern World: 1500-1800 (2014), is partly accessible here; but it's not a classic historical narrative, more of an examination of Egypt in relation to world and economic issues, I believe.
• Hunter, Egypt Under the Khedives, 1805-1879: From Household Government to Modern (1999) is partly accessible here; this one is focused on the government and administration of the time.
• The Mamluks in Egyptian Politics and Society (1998) has chapters about the Egyptian Mamluks during the Ottoman period, for example here.

R Prazeres (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)