Talk:Osman Kulenović

Osman Kulenović Croat

The Kulenović brothers (Osman and Džafer were known self declared Croats. In this book by Nada Kisić Kolanović Osman is quoted as saying that: he was not "bothered to receive vice governmentship, because I did not care from whose hands would we the Croats receive free state"

Nada Kisić Kolanović, Muslimani i hrvatski nacionalizam 1941.-1945., Hrvatski institut za povijest-Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 2009., ISBN 978-953-0-60852-8, p. 182.: Kulenović je naknadno izjavio da je NDH 1941. smatrao povijesnim ostvarenjem hrvatske težnje za vlastitom državom, drugim riječima, fašistički sponzori te države nisu ga "smetali da se primi podpredsjedništva vlade, jer mi nije bilo stalo iz čijih ruku ćemo mi Hrvati primiti slobodnu državu".

English translation of the book quote: Kulenović subsequently said that the he considered NDH of 1941 historic achievement of Croatian aspirations for their own state, in other words, fascist state sponsors of that state did not bother him and he was not "bothered to receive vice governmentship, because I did not care from whose hands would we the Croats receive free state"--Rovoobo Talk 10:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Kulenović himself was Croat, according to HIM. What consensus do we need here? It was his own decision. --Wüstenfuchs 12:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

how about the reliable sources? What do they say? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kisić-Kolanović is a reliable author, she quoted Kulenović (as you can se above). She deals mostly with 20th century Croatian history, mainly political one. She is an alumni from University of Zagreb, she gained her PhD in 1988 and works for the Croatian Institute of History (Croatian Wikipedia). On the other hand, we had the discussion about the reliability of the Tko je tko u NDH book, and it is reliable. It is a biographical book published by reliable authors. Moreover, Kisić-Kolanović used Kulenović's quotes, and we also have the third-party source as well. --Wüstenfuchs 13:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

There is also a statement from Aida Kulenović too, the daughter of Džafer Kulenović... which I have also posted here [1]. Its about Croatdom of their family and was originally published in Džafer Kulenović's book Sabrana djela 1945-1956 dr. Džafera Kulenovića.

Mirsad Bakšić, Doprinos muslimana hrvatskoj kulturi i državi, "Dr. Safvet-beg Bašagić" Udruga za promicanje prava hrvatskih državljana Pripadnika kulturnog i tradicijskog kruga Islama, Zagreb, 2011., ISBN 978-953-56769-0-4, p. 237.: U svojem zadnjem članku I krv za Hrvatsku Nahid Kulenović kao da je predosjećao svoju skoru smrt. Nahidova sestra Aida rođena 1924 podvlači, dokazujući da niti jedan član ove hrvatske obitelji islamske vjeroispovijesti nije izostavio da javno proklamira svoje Hrvatstvo: "Gotovo svi rođeni Hrvati i osjećaju se Hrvatima a kao protudokaz nikada se ne mogu navoditi iznimke... Poštujemo vjeru jedni drugih i živimo po propisima vjere kojoj pripadamo i hrvatski će narod od toga imati goleme koristi" (Iz Sabrana djela 1945-1956 dr. Džafera Kulenovića, priredili: pravnik Stjepan Barbarić, Miron Krešimir Begić i Ragib Zukić, Buenos Aires 1978, kraj slike Aide Kulenović između stranica 48 i 49).

English translation: In his last article And blood for Croatia Nahid Kulenović almost had a presentiment of his approaching death. Nahid's sister Aida born in 1924 highlights, proving that no member of this Croatian family of Islamic religion did not forget to publicly proclaim their Croatdom: "Nearly all born Croats and feel like Croats to contradict never can cite exceptions... We respect the faith of each other and live by the rules of faith to which we belong and the Croatian people will also have the immense benefit from it" (from Sabrana djela 1945-1956 dr. Džafera Kulenovića, edited by: lawyer Stjepan Barbarić, Miron Krešimir Begić i Ragib Zukić, Buenos Aires 1978, next to photo of Aida Kulenović between pages 48 and 49).--Rovoobo Talk 06:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

There are also WP:RS that describe him as a "Bosnian Muslim". Neutrality requires that descriptors include the range of mainstream views. Who here sees a problem with describing him as a "Bosnian Muslim" who identified himself as a "Muslim Croat" or something similar? Surely it is not a black or white matter? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:57, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that Kulenović's own opinion is the most important. He was a Muslim Croat. --Wüstenfuchs 23:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

On what policy basis do you make that assertion? There are a number of WP:RS that describe this "Muslim Croat" idea as being created by the Ustase, however the sources refer to the same people as "Bosnian Muslims" [2], [3], [4]. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Kulenović was Croat before Ustaše appeared in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Nevertheless, even if it is because of the Ustaše policy, Kulenović was an Ustaše and considered himself a Croat, that is very simple. Every person decides his ethnicity. Nevertheless, Muslim Croats aren't Ustaše invention, this is from 19th century, it was present in Austria-Hungary and Kingdom of Yugoslavia, nothing controversial...

"Gentlemen, I am a Croat and Croatian nationalist... And not only that I am a Croat and Croatian nationalist, but the Bosnian Muslims are, as a whole, Croats and part of the Croatian nation." - Džafer (his borther) in 1939 as president of the Yugoslav Muslim Organization. See also people like Safvet-beg Bašagić. This ideology came from Ante Starčević. Another problem is that you see the term "Bosnian Muslim" as a separate nation, but this is rather refering to Muslims by religion living in Bosnia and Herzegovina. All of them could be either Serbs or Croats. --Wüstenfuchs 01:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? How the hell would you know how I see "Bosnian Muslims"? In any case, that is a quote from his brother, not him. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It is from his brother, I showed you just an example that Bosnian Muslims, well, part of them, considered themsevles to be Croats before Ustaše, that's all. --Wüstenfuchs 11:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

jer mi nije bilo stalo iz čijih ruku ćemo mi Hrvati primiti slobodnu državu. Translated: I did not care from whose hands would we Croats receive free state. Osman said that when questioned by UDBA on 20. 03. 1947. (HDA RSUP SRH SDS 013.0.54, Kulenović Osman, Zapisnik saslušanja u UDB-i za Hrvatsku 20. ožujka 1947.) and that is quoted in above mentioned Nada Kisić Kolanović's book. He said: Mi Hrvati. We Croats. I think it quite brave in those circumstances and only few months before his death. Only sure thing to chalenge that we need Osman's quote saying I'm Bosniak or we Bosniaks?

From a book by Mirsad Bakšić, Doprinos muslimana hrvatskoj kulturi i državi, "Dr. Safvet-beg Bašagić" Udruga za promicanje prava hrvatskih državljana Pripadnika kulturnog i tradicijskog kruga Islama, Zagreb, 2011., ISBN 978-953-56769-0-4, p. 240.-242., a few Nahid Kulenović's quotes from Croatian immigrant newspapers:

• U Hrvatskoj straži: podsjeća, "...Kako su Hrvati katolici ginuli u Fazlagić kuli za Hrvatsku zajedno sa svojom braćom muslimanima isto su tako muslimani u kolonama smrti položili svoje živote zajedno sa svojom braćom Hrvatima katolicima na žrtvenik koji će davati snagu naraštajima koji će ih slijediti..."
• U Hrvatskoj slobodi: "...Hrvati mogu imati i pripadati raznim političkim strankama ali samo onima koje se bore za ostvarenje hrvatske državne nezavisnosti sa granicom na Drini..."
• U Hrvatskoj slobodi: "..."Naše prijatelje" nitko nije pitao za njihove savjete i prijedloge u pogledu Bosne-Hercegovine-Sandžaka u prošlosti, pa ne će ni u budućnosti. Stoga im savjetujemo, da ne diraju u hrvatsku Herceg-Bosnu-Sandžak, jer će se u protivnom jako opeći. Bosna-Hercegovina-Sandžak glasali su 1941. godine sa svojom krvlju za hrvatsku državu i to će učiniti opet, kada to bude potrebno. Sinovi 'Crne Legije' stajat će opet s puškom u ruci na vjekovnoj medji Drini, koja će uvijek dijeliti dva naroda Hrvate i Srbe."

So we have Osman referring to himself as a Croat, his brother Džafer saying: I'm a Croat nationalist., his niece Aida Kulenović saying Kulenović's are Croats and his nephew Nahid Kulenović member of Croatian Liberation Movement dedicating his life (And blood for Croatia) in fighting for Croatia. I really don't know what more is needed as a proof, because that is one Croat nationalist family.--Rovoobo Talk 09:05, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

So WP:RS are not relevant? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

They are, and those are RS. --Wüstenfuchs 11:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

so the nephew of the subject is an RS? How is that exactly? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

A nuanced description would be best. We have a contrary example in the Serbs in Dubrovnik#History, which I have linked from several of those people's articles as "Serb Catholic movement in 19th century Dubrovnik". Yes, today everyone would say that this self-description is bizarre, but it was a historical fact and the encyclopedia needs to serve to elucidate that. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Could the nationalist wustenfuchs please refrain from equating Kulenovic's self-identification as Croat with the whole Bosniak nation? The overwhelming proportion of Bosnian Muslims (+95%) consider themselves to be part of a distinct separate nation (i.e. Bosniaks). By the same distorted token one could conclude all Croats in Bosnia to be actually Serbs because one individual (author Ivo Andric) turned his back on his Croat roots and instead declared himself as Serb. I would appreciate if wustenfuchs could stop spreading false information (i.e. before the ustashe the Bosnian Muslims considered themselves Croats). This is so wrong, in all population censuses held from the very first Yugoslavia the overwhelming part of Bosnian Muslims declared themselves either undecideds or Yugoslavs and later on, when the option was given, Muslims and Bosniaks. The Kulenovic family is one isolated example which does not prove anything on a national level, and more so their decisions took place in a turbulent period of world history with the upheaval of all freedom of sentiment. Hence, the term 'Bosnian Muslims' have served, and will continue to serve, as a synonym for Bosniaks. A few isolated cases of "Serb" or "Croat" Muslims in Bosnia are insignificant to redefine the term as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.230.54.125 (talk) 12:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

@Joy, what are you suggesting? A balanced description based on the RS? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I need to say, I'm not speaking about the self-determination of Bosniaks, not at all. I believe that they are separate nation, but remember that this discussion is about one Bosnian Muslim (not Bosnian Muslims) and that I was speaking about part of the Croatian history (Starčević, Party of Rights etc). --Wüstenfuchs 15:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

OK Wustenfuchs, and I of course do not deny the technical possibility that a given Muslim in Bosnia might be Croat, rather than Bosniak. If the Kulenovic's really viewed themselves as Croats then there is no reason to not categorize them as such. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Something self-published is a sufficiently reliable primary source when they talk about their own self-identification, because this is inherently subjective; if someone can demonstrate a reliable secondary source that explicitly contradicts the exact topic, then the primary source has less value, but it's still relevant. Finally, if the notability of a biography is actually derived from such a controversial description, then that's definitely a topic that the biography should cover, rather than dodge. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Categorisation

Osman K was the vice-president of a fascist satellite state/quasi-protectorate established by the Germans and Italians and continued working with that government for four years. German and Italian military forces operated in the country for all that time, and worked closely with the NDH government. He and all members of the NDH government collaborated with the Germans and Italians for years, he even met the Mufti who came to Bosnia to bless the 13th SS Division. The categorisation is self-evident. The edit warring on this topic needs to stop. If editors have a source which states that OK didn't collaborate with the Germans and Italians, it should be presented here. Otherwise the categorisations wil be restored. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)