Talk:Orontes I/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: HistoryofIran (talk · contribs) 12:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Relativity (talk · contribs) 19:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I'll be reviewing this article and checking it against the good article criteria. Let me know if you have any questions by leaving a message on my talk page or by pinging me here. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 19:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Copyvio check

Ran it on Earwig's. 6.5%. I won't mark that criterion as pass until I do the source spot check, though.

Source spot check

• Briant, Pierre's source— looks good.
• Clark, Jessica H.; Turner, Brian's source— looks good.
• Garsoian, Nina's source— The source itself looks good, but I don't see what uses it as a citation. What uses it for a source?

Ops, it is indeed not used at all. Just checked it, it has nothing of use either. I've removed it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• Osborne, Michael J. (1971) source— looks good
• Ruzicka, Stephen's source— looks good
• Schmitt, Rüdiger's 1986 source— looks good
• Troxell, Hyla A.'s source— looks good

Sources look good!

I may add more sources to this list as time goes on for any reason. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 01:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback

Main feedback is completed for now, but I might have some points added as I re-read.

• Lead: was a Bactrian nobleman, who served as— remove comma

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lead: He first appears in 401 BC as the satrap of— does this mean that he first appeared in history works in 401 BC?

Yup. Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lead: Per MOS:LEADLENGTH, the lead is a bit long. Although the figures in that table are just suggestions, for the length of the article, you might want to consider trimming the lead just a bit.
• Lead: The second, third, and fourth sentence in the first paragraph in the lead should be moved to the second paragraph in the lead. The first paragraph in the lead should then summarize the most important things Orontes I did.
• Question: there's no estimated time for when Orontes I was born? My assumption is no, since he only first appears in records in 401 BC.

That's right. Btw, I won't be with my own pc for a few days, so won't be able to properly address this review until then. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

No problem. If needs be, I can place this on hold. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 00:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lead: This led to Tiribazus' dismissal and imprisonment. This was followed by— Having two consecutive sentences start with "this" seems a bit repetitive to me. Could you possibly find a way to reword those?

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lead: The terms of the treaty was that Evagoras was obligated to pay tribute to the Persian king, but as a subordinate king rather than a slave.— Too specific for the lead, I suggest removing it.

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Artaxerxes III did not deem the conclusion of the war satisfactory, as it had cost 15,000 talents, and a result Orontes fell into disfavour.

• Lead: Trim this so it only says what the war did to Orontes (e.g. "Orontes fell into disfavor as a result of the war")

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Expedition to Cyprus: add "as" after "and"'

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Where should it be added? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Ah, sorry, this is pertaining to and a result Orontes fell into disfavour. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 03:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lead: Orontes later reappears in 362/1 BC, as the hyparch of Mysia — "hyparch" in this sentence links to "satrap". What's the difference between the two?

Oh, completely forgot about this one. I'll see what I can do. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed the link and added "(governor)", because thats what a hyparch basically was (sourced in the body of the article). HistoryofIran (talk) 23:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Lead According to the classical Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (died c. 30 BC), Orontes thought that he would be greatly rewarded if he did so at such a critical point. — Too specific for the lead IMO

Made it less specific. Thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm noticing that a lot of sentences that are in the lead are also in the body with the exact same wording. I don't think that there's anything wrong per se with that, but you do end up getting more detail in the lead than a lead is supposed to have, and it does have the feeling of déjà vu. What's your opinion: should these duplicate sentences be reworded or should they stay as-is?

I think it's fine, since the lead is ultimately meant to a summary of the body of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Background— Him and his father are the only— change to "He and his father"

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Background, second paragraph— why is the claim supported by his marriage? And how does that marriage show that Orontes was probably descended from Hydarnes from his maternal line?

Unfortunately the source doesn't say, I assume he couldn't get married into the royal family if he wasn't of high descent. As for the maternal line bit, it's because Hydarnes was Persian, so the author states that Orontes couldnt have been descended from him through his paternal line, as it was Bactrian. I've adjusted that bit to make it more clear. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Expedition to Cyprus— when he as satrap of Armenia harassed the Ten Thousand— How did he "harass" them?

Changed it to "pursued". --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Expedition to Cyprus— feared that he might be accused of cooperation.— Why was cooperation a bad thing?

I've changed it to "cooperating with him" (Tiribazus), as Tiribazus had just been jailed due to suspicions of rebellion. Thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Expedition to Cyprus— him much of Greek unit of the Persian forces— add "the" before "Greek"

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Legacy— A relief of Orontes was also erected by the stelae— surely the stelae itself didn't erect the relief?

Ops, changed it to "on the stelae". --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Coinage— It has been suggested that the gold coins minted at Lampsacus were by Orontes due to two reasons.. So did Orontes design the coins himself? Did he mint them? Or did they just have his face on them?
• I don't see what the second paragraph in the Coinage section has to do with coinage, excepting the last line of that. Why is that description there?

I've rewritten the first part of the Coinage section. Thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Image check

• File:MYSIA, Adramytion. Orontes. Satrap of Mysia, Circa 357-352 BC. Æ 10 mm (1.10 g). Head of satrap right.jpg— looks good and relevant
• File:Ancient kingdoms of Cyprus en.svg— Usage looks good, and from what I understand, those are city-states, correct?

Yep, adjusted the description to reflect that better. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• File:Evagoras-Stater 733597 C.jpg— Looks good and relevant
• File:Asia Minor in the Greco-Roman period - general map - regions and main settlements.jpg— Relevant, usage looks good. I don't see a lot of borders on that map. Not really a problem, just slightly confusing because I'm not sure where each country ends and starts.
• File:Orontes I.jpg—Looks good and relevant. There looks like a lot of coins of Orontes I [1], have you considered doing a gallery?

I've added two more relevant images that appear in the text, though I am not that impressed by the Coin section, I plan on expanding it for a future FA with hopefully more sources/info at my disposal. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Overall: Image usage and relevancy looks good; just a few comments

@Relativity: Sorry that this took this long, just a lot of irl stuff and stuff in Wikipedia which I had to tend to. What are your thoughts on the current state of the article? Take your time of course. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Hey! So far, with the improvements that you've made, it's looking better. I need to finish the source spot check until I can finalize that the criteria are met. My only concern is still the lead. It's really long for the article size. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, a general rule of thumb is to not have more than four paragraphs in the lead. Since that's just a general rule of thumb, I can be more lenient with the amount of content in the lead, but IMO there's too much. Otherwise, looking good! I am going to have a busy next couple of days, so don't count on the review being finished incredibly soon, but I'll try to make this my first priority on Wikipedia. I'll place the GAR on hold for now. Cheers, and let me know if you have any questions ‍Relativity ⚡️ 23:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

All good, waiting for update on what you're going to do as far as the lead. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 22:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what else to trim, I feel like its pretty important info, considering his distinguished career. Since it's a general rule of thumb, can't an exception be made? Not putting them on the same level, but Cleopatra has a even longer lead, and it's FA. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: That was mostly just a suggestion. I didn't really need it to be shortened for this to pass, just maybe keep that in mind for the future. I fixed one minor grammatical thing, and I think that it looks good! Great work! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 21:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Review Progress

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.