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Archive 1Archive 2

Wording

@EthiopianHabesha: You added back, "who comes from the Sidama country of Gammo" and "and a journal published by International African Institute even suggests it is an Oromo word (adopted by neighbours) for there is a word galla "wandering" in their language". I don't have a preference on whether to include or exclude this, but I find the wording difficult to parse and understand. Why is these contexts important to "Oromo people"? Your "even suggests" language feels like editorializing, something best avoided. If you clarify what is important about all this, we can collaboratively figure out a way to word it better. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, the section is titled 'nomenclature' therfore we have to include all definitions because choosing ones favorite and ignoring the other is considered WP:Advocacy. As for "who comes from the Sidama country of Gammo" for Bahrey let me ask you, you also added "the Christian monk" and why did you add that? Why I added that personal information is also for the same reasoning, I mean since there should be a personal background about the writer then we should not just mention his religion but also where he comes from too. I don't know why adding the personal background of Bahrey and another source stating "it is an Oromo word used by themselves" becomes a problem to you when you have no problem adding inappropriate stereotypes (not seen in any other African tribes articles who leave with White & Indian minorities eventhough it is a fact they have been stereotyped in the past that way) even by writing it in a map? Let me ask you, what is realy the importance of adding a map with the old name since no one is using it today? What do you want people to get out of this? Inform? Stop it's use? Resentment? I am asking these since we need to discuss as to the importance of contents added according wikipedia rule WP:ONUS. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:40, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@EthiopianHabesha: The nomenclature section should indeed include various definitions. My concern is your sentence structure, not what you are trying to add. Thanks for explaining. The maps illustrate the use of term "galla" by cartographers in early 20th century, and how different their representations were. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:58, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

The 1887 map

@EthiopianHabesha:, @Duqsene: The 1887 map not only shows GALLA in caps in the lower right area, it shows galla river and other details that are relevant to that section. I favor the map that was restored by @Duqsene for that reason. If there are other maps out there that are more Oromo-relevant and better meet MOS:IMAGES guidelines, by all means, let us pick the best two (for NPOV). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:09, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The colonial era Italian map does not point out the location of the oromo. Oromo people are found in most of the Scioa/Harar region not just the the state highlighted as Galla-Sidamo. Its an administrative map that belongs on the Italian East Africa article. Duqsene (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Explain History section changes

Other than copyediting and adding reliable scholarly sources, I have removed sections on individuals that are covered in History of Ethiopia and royalty-related articles, leaving just a summary style paragraphs on these. That suffices here. Our focus in this article ought to be Oromo people and the history of this ethnic group. Further, for NPOV, the content should reflect "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, the significant views that have been published by reliable sources" on this. The Aleksandr Bulatovich sourced para is weak, and needs a bit more WP:RS summary. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, please see the article Italians and most of the article is about people with Italian ancestry and similarly this article also should describe the well known Oromo Individuals who mobilized and led not only a few 1,000s of Oromos from their tribe but also millions of Oromo people and also other millions from the rest of Ethiopia. Note that the Yejju tribe Oromos who ruled the Amhara people is also part of the Oromo people history and brief description of these rulling classes is something the Oromo people find it interesting to know so why censor that and just let the people know that "none of your peoples ruled Amharas"? If you know any scientist Oromos who influenced the lives of Africans or even the people of the world then please include their brief biography in the article as well. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@EthiopianHabesha: I don't understand some parts of your comment such as the one on censor. The Italians article is similar to the article on Ethiopians. Slavery has been discussed in Romans article by the editors who created it, and numerous wikipedia articles, but most importantly as @Doug Weller explained to you already a few months ago, "please don't discuss other articles" on this talk page. Slavery was not limited to 1,000s of Oromos. Nearly a third to two-thirds of Oromo people were slaves in regions of Ethiopia (see cited sources in this article). Further, when a family is broken because a child has been stolen or member has been kidnapped/sentenced to be sold as a slave, it affects not just that kidnapped person, it affects the relatives and people for their lifetime because they lost a loved one to violence and injustice. A systemic persecution of any people is a part of the history and oral traditions of that ethnic group.

Slavery was fundamental to the social, political and economic order of the northern savanna, Ethiopia and the East African coast for several centuries before 1600.
– Paul E Lovejoy, Professor, York University, Canada Research Chair in African Diaspora History[1]

References

  1. ^ Paul E. Lovejoy (2011). Transformations in Slavery: A History of Slavery in Africa. Cambridge University Press. p. 24. ISBN 978-1-139-50277-1.
Bio of individuals do not belong in this article. The society and culture section needs an expansion. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch, I did not complain about slavery section. What I meant was if you know any people with Oromo ancestry who have contributed to Africa or the world then we should briefly discuss about each of them similar to Italians article (the lead of the article says Italian ethnicgroup) which also discussed about Italian diaspora. I am just mentioning other related articles as an example so that we learn from other Wikipedia editors, that is all I said. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Yejju Oromos section

@EthiopianHabesha: you added back,

From the last quarter of the eighteenth century up to mid nineteenth century the Yejju Oromos dominated the politics of north Ethiopia.[1]

References

  1. ^ Henry Salt A Voyage to Abyssinia. Published in 1816 pp. 378-382 Google Books

The source is dated 1816, and your summary claims "up to mid nineteenth century" which implies about 1850. The source does not use the word "Yejju". That is all OR, not in this source. The source is also very old, more recent scholarly secondary or tertiary source would be better. There seem to be additional misreading or misunderstanding of the sources you added after the Henry Salt source. Please explain, add RS, or check and revise appropriately. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, that content was sourced from this one: "Molla Tikuye, The Rise and Fall of the Yajju Dynasty 1784-1980, p. 201." as well as Henry Salt's book and also from the other sources used in that section. Please see this. If you need more sources related to this history please let me know. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Your new source is about Ali Gwangul and related warlords, it doesn't support that sentence either. Ali Gwangul died in 1788. To claim, his 1784-1788 part in Ethiopian history supports your claim, "up to mid nineteenth century dominance in politics by Yejju Oromos" is OR. Just like the OR on Henry Salt 1816 source. Whatever we summarize here must be directly verifiable in RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:26, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Horn of Africa in 1420 Map

Map of Ethiopia circa 1420

Hello EthiopianHabesha, the map is not accurate and also not based on scholarly work, but please do show your evidence. -AlaskaLava, 20 January 2017

The map was self-created by a user (Ingoman) and references no sources whatsoever. Please, User:EthiopianHabesha, do not readd it. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
@AlaskaLava, Buckshot06, did check the dates and boundary with mainly Richard Pankhurst Book and other books like the Futuh Al-Habash written by Arab chroniclers of Gragn Mohamed. It would have been helpful if specific issues in the map are pointed out. Anyways, since the importance of the map is to support Oromos existence in the Horn of Africa and in modern day Bale province then let me give some sources supporting that claim. Please see [1][2][3][4][5][6]. If there are other issues in the map please let me know. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: The map AlaskaLava and Buckshot06 removed asserts 1420 "Oromo Confederation" boundaries, as well as many other details that none of your sources verify. Pankhurst book that you mention does not support this map, it raises questions. On page 137, for example, second last para, Pankhurst states that Gallas (Oromo) were south or "east" of Bale, that too "probably" and c. 1460. The map shows them south and "southwest" of Bale with misleading certainty. What is it in these sources that leads you to believe that the map verifies? Please note that a historic map by someone, say created between 14th and 20th century, one we can verify in an externally published source can be included, but as Buckshot06 explains above, a self-created map by a wiki user is OR unless we can verify it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, "The map shows them south and "southwest" of Bale"? Richard said south or "east" of Bali see and the map also shows them mostly south of Bale with some on the southeast as well as some on the southwest. It will help in reaching consensus if you could please let me know where you think they were by 1420, so that we can draw another map online if you disagree with this one. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 23:18, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
These sources do not provide enough information to draw a "map" for 1420, 1460 or later. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Using a self-made map in the absence of reliable sources for it would violate WP:RS and WP:SYNTH. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Buckshot06, searched wikipedia policy for maps and couldn't find, however checked many articles and almost all maps inserted say "Own Work" while not listing references [7][8]. I beleive why they are kept is because it's within consensus. Let me try to understand the concern of Ms Sarah in case if we can discuss and keep this one or draw another map together online, or may be once I have her concerns take it to Request for comment for other editors to comment about it. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, checked the dates put on the map and they all seem to be accurate but if you propose another map, please let me know which source we take i.e. if you disagree with Richard Pankhurst. I think Richard's location is clear and said they were found south of Ganale Doria River [9]. If you could please let me know which source we should take then it's not going to be diffcult to draw a map, after all, all maps drawn before 18th century are not perfect and readers do understand that. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, those other maps should probably be taken down too. *It is not clearly based on any WP:Reliable Sources; and amateur map-makers taking information from multiple sources and trying to make a map out of it for WP would violate WP:SYNTH. Drop it, please. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Buckshot06, what is realy the issue with the map if Richard said south of Genale Doria river and the map shows exactly according to what the scholar Richard Pankhurst said? I want to know the reason in case I can address them before I take it to Request for comment so that other editors give their opinion. Earlier, you said Wikipedia is not WP:NOTCENSORED so why should we censor Ricahrd's and other highly educated neutral and relevant scholar's hard work also saying south of Ganale or south of Bali sultanate? — Buckshot06 — Preceding unsigned comment added by EthiopianHabesha (talk • contribs)

EthiopianHabesha: Please do not sign as Buckshot06. That is basic TALK page etiquette. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
How did that happen? Just noticed now — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
EthiopianHabesha, please go to WP:SYNTH and read it. PLEASE DROP THIS REQUEST, IT VIOLATES WP:RS AND WP:SYNTH. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Final Proposal

There is no metion of how the region was before 20th centuary and it's not fair to censor history and let people assume the region was peaceful contrary to what reliable sources say. For this reason I am proposing to include both the following paragraphs:

Before 20th century, wars have been devastating in the region as well as in Oromo areas for many centuries. According to Donald, the reasons for warfare in the region is to acquire cattle, slaves, to gain territories or control over trade routes and to carry out ritual requirements or secure trophies to prove masculinity. Wars were fought between people who may be under the same linguistic group, religion, culture or between unrelated tribes, and according to Donald the centralization greatly reduced these continuous wars, thereafter, minimizing the loss of lives, raids, destruction and slavery that usually occur during battles of that era.[10][11][12][13]
Conquered people who are non Oromos and other Oromo tribes who resisted the Oromo occupation were subject to serfdom and cruel treatments. Several successive army leaders of various Oromo tribes known as "Lubas" carried out atrocities against civilians and combatants including torture, mass killings, depopulation and large scale slavery. People under the rule of the Oromos were adopted through Mogassa and were assimilated while their states were destroyed. Those who resisted, men or women, under the rule of the Oromos were subject to mutilation and slavery.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24]

@Ms Sarah Welch, if there is consensus to give readers balanced and complete information per WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED, then you may include this toned down history as well. Thanks — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I am having trouble parsing your sentences and understanding your English. Please reread Robert McClenon's comment on this talk page and in response to your past DRN filing related to this article. If you are trying to suggest that we should summarize the conflict between Muslim Oromo and Christian Oromos and others, and that there was retaliatory violence by Oromo people on other ethnic groups in 19th and 20th centuries, there is a better way to do so within our content guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:20, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch, whenever I bring something that you do not like you focus on the editor instead of dealing with the content presented. The sources I listed are in proper English and if you believe Wikipedia articles need to be balanced, complete, NPOV, No history censor and if you beleive all other scholars opinion (mainly European neutrals who write without agenda) should be included then you could summerise the sources, tone it down, and include them. Thanks — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Why include the various reasons for war in the region, on the Oromo article? Donald Levine bit might be better off on the Ethiopia article. Duqsene (talk) 15:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Donald is generalizing for the region (including Oromo) but if you look at the rest of the sources they also associate what Donald said with the Oromo. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:15, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, I think we need to clarify in regards to the importance of warfare before 20th century. See [25] Donald's conclusion for why the people in the region used to fight. Since all the reasons for fighting listed by Donald are also shared with other neighbouring ethnic-groups, I just simply summarised it generally instead of giving the impression that it only applies to Oromo. However, if you want to be specific and say Oromos fight for this and that reasons then you may see the rest of the sources provided above specifically saying they used to fight for the reasons listed by Donald. If you need more sources you may let me know. Thanks — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:02, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Please see the explanation above. In the source, see the section that starts on page 135. On page 136 it uses the phrase "esteemed adversaries". But to properly summarize that we need to mention jihad, Christians, Borana, Guji, Arsi, etc not just only one fragment of a sentence out of context. You are unnecessarily repeating, and you are quoting Levine out of context. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
You also added the following
Some of these Oromo groups who made alliance, like Yejju tribe, even end up as the rulers of Amhara-Tigrean people between 1769-1855.[1]

References

  1. ^ Paulos Milkias, Getachew Metaferia The Battle of Adwa: Reflections on Ethiopia's Historic Victory Against European Colonialism. Algora Publishing (2005) pp. 274-275 Google Books
Paulos Milkias and Getachew Metaferia state no such thing on pages 274-275. At all. Nor do Giyorgis and Tafla. Please provide a quote from Milkias and Metaferia pages. They are claiming intermarriage between Amhara-Oromo elites, etc and we have summarized these pages elsewhere in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch, page 135-136 is discussing about the division and inter-tribal fighting within the Oromo and it's not about jihad or Christians. Please see again [26]. I hope you have noticed that the article is becoming large. If you think it's necessary to add one more paragraph just to summarise what is found in page 136 then please do so. As for Yejju Oromo tribe, Asma Giorgis & Bairu Tafla did say that Gugsa of Yejju ruled Gojam, Begemider, Wallo and Tigre, and instead I summarised the Amhara provinces and said "rulers of Amhara-Tigrean people", please see [27]. For more on Yejus please see [28][29][30][31] — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I already checked the references. They do not support your WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. You are also mistaken about jihad/Christian/etc mention on pages 135-136. I asked you to quote the sentence that you believe supports what you added. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:10, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, what do you think we should about page 135-136, censor that? Since it is related to division and inter-tribal fighting within the Oromo, related to the paragraph you just added (beginning with "The inter-tribal relationships within the Oromo people....."), then I added it there. May be we deal with this one first before discussing about Yejjus. The article is already large and it's pointless to have another paragraph just for discussing page 135-136 when we could just summarise and add them to this paragraph you added for discussing inter-tribal fighting, division, and fight with other ethnic-groups. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:34, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Read the article carefully. The old version already states "There was intertribal fighting within Oromo.[67]" Why repeat that in the article? I ask you for a quote, you don't provide one, instead argue WP:Censor which has nothing to do with the WP:OR concerns. Please consider Robert McClenon's comment, EthiopianHabesha, about your ability and competence to contribute, and that you shouldn't be editing English wikipedia. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch, didn't you understand my question saying "what do you think we should about page 135-136, censor that?". Ofcourse, I have seen this "There was intertribal fighting within Oromo.[67]" but what I am asking you is what should we do about a work done by a respected scholar called Donald N. Levine. Please see, should we add one more paragraph for this, if not what do you think we should do about that? I mean if you summarised page 135-136 as simply "there was inter-tribal fighting within Oromo" then why not also summarise the Amhara-Oromo wars as simply as "there was fight between Amhara-Oromo" without explaining further? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Gadda/Gadaa

I happened across the "Oromo people" page ... and noticed that what seems to be the same term seems to have two spellings: "Gadda" five times and "Gadaa" seven times.

Should there be only one spelling? If so, perhaps it should be corrected and consolidated into one spelling? (Or indicate that both spellings are equivalent and acceptable.)

If the different spellings indicate some difference in meaning, I did not see it. If so, perhaps that difference should be made clear.

Almadenmike (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

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redundant citations

There are many full citations that are complete duplicates, even ones to the same page(s). I started unifying these duplicates, starting with Sorenson2001p41 or Sorenson2001p39. After an hour or so I had found that other sources were similarly duplicate-cited. I'm stopping now to get to sleep, but I will return to the task tomorrow and finish it. --Thnidu (talk) 05:08, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Red and black slaves

@94.46.179.65: With this edit, you allege in your edit summary that the cited sources do not discuss "red" and "black" slaves. They do. Please see lines 20-32 of page 73, along with the context on pages 72-74 of the cited The Cambridge World History of Slavery, as one example. If you have concerns, please discuss them here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That "the slaves were classified into two groups by the Amhara people, one "red" who were Cushitic-speaking and lighter pigmented, and another "black" also called Bareya or Shanqalla who were Bantu-speaking and darker pigmented" [32] is not indicated in the linked urls [33] [34] [35]. The Cambridge url does touch on "red" and "black" slaves on page 73, but it doesn't assert that all of the "red" slaves were Oromo, Sidama and other Cushitic speakers from southern and southwestern Ethiopia. It instead states that they comprised the bulk of the "red" slaves [36]. The Cambridge url also doesn't claim that the "black" slaves were Bantu. The original Lipsky text indicates that these slaves were actually captured along the Sudanese-Ethiopian border [37]. 94.46.179.65 (talk) 16:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Also, I changed the redundant and longer page title heading "Enslavement of Oromos and Oromos as slave-owners" to the non-redundant and shorter "Slave-ownership and enslavement" according to MOS:HEAD. It states that "a heading should not redundantly refer back to the subject of the article (Early life, not Smith's early life or His early life), or to a higher-level heading, unless doing so is shorter or clearer." 94.46.179.65 (talk) 16:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
You offer a straw man argument when you state "...on page 73, but it doesn't assert all of the red slaves were Oromo...". Where does this article state this? The article states,
"The slaves were classified into two groups by the Amhara people, one "red" who were Cushitic-speaking and lighter pigmented, and another "black" also called Bareya or Shanqalla who were Bantu-speaking and darker pigmented.[59][61][62] The "red" slaves were more expensive and exported, while the "black" slaves were kept domestically such as by Christian Abyssinians.[59][63] The Cushitic-speaking Oromos formed the expensive and the bulk of 'Ethiopian' slaves exported to Arabian peninsula and Persian Gulf regions,[64][18] to Ottoman Empire markets,[65] to Egypt and elsewhere.[59] Young female Oromo slaves served as concubines and household workers,[66] while males were in demand for private armies and servile labor.[62]"
I will add a clarification for the "bulk of" part, since all of the red slaves were indeed not Oromo, assuming that is what your concern is. The problem with your retitling is what to put first, slave-ownership or enslavement. Either style leaves a first impression to a new reader. It also may invite edit warring and lead to an unstable article. Just simple "slavery" title avoids all these potential complications. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:40, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
The text above asserts that "the slaves were classified into two groups by the Amhara people, one "red" who were Cushitic-speaking." This suggests that all of the red slaves were Cushitic-speaking. However, the link actually indicates that Cushitic speakers from southern and southwestern Ethiopia just comprised the bulk of the "red" slaves [38]. None of the urls also indicate that the "black" slaves were Bantu-speaking [39][40][41]. Therefore, I recommend "The slaves were classified into two groups according to Amhara color conventions: "red" slaves, who were light brown in complexion and mostly from Cushitic-speaking populations of southern and southwestern Ethiopia, and "black" slaves called Bareya or Shanqalla ("Negro"), who were from the Sudanese-Ethiopian border." 94.46.179.75 (talk) 16:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
@94.46.179.75: Where is the support for "Sudanese-Ethiopian border"? I see "western fringes of Christian Ethiopia" on page 73 of The Cambridge World History of Slavery, but the historic maps have some uncertainty, the borders have changed and these two phrases need not be equivalent. Unless you can find a WP:RS to support that wording, we may need to reword this. BTW, welcome to wikipedia and please consider opening an account. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The Sudanese-Ethiopian border is indicated in the Lipsky url [42]. 94.46.179.75 (talk) 15:46, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@94.46.179.75: Ok. I added a few more words to clarify. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Ok. 94.46.179.80 (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Religion

Most Oromos follow either Islam (>60%) or Christianity (>30%). Fewer than 3% adhere to a traditional religion [43]. 94.46.179.65 (talk) 16:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

You searched, "Probably a little more than 60 percent of them are Muslim, more than 30 percent are Christian, and less than 3 percent still follow the traditional religion". The search result was "A sua pesquisa não encontrou nenhum documento". This translates to "Your search did not match any documents." Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Correct, the indicated percentages are >60% Muslim, >30% Christian, and <3% traditional religion. 94.46.179.75 (talk) 16:05, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The link now works. Thanks. We cannot declare estimates the source states as "probable" without that qualification. We have two estimates, we cannot take sides per the NPOV guideline. In lead, we should retain a statement about the historic religion of the Oromos as well as estimates for their current affiliations. The lead now does this. Please do not delete the former. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, the range estimates are alright. 94.46.179.75 (talk) 15:46, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
The linked source we are currently using in the Infobox states "About half of the Oromos are Sunni Muslim, a third are Ethiopian Orthodox, with smaller Protestant or traditional communities" - https://books.google.com/books?id=pGClDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA319#v=onepage&q&f=false

2602:306:CFEA:170:A19F:9593:E6A0:BD26 (talk) 02:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:53, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Native-Speaker Review Necessary

At least some of the sections I've read (eg Religion) read as though written by a non-native English speaker. I don't have time to make emendations or rewrites at the moment, but I wanted to point out the issues I've enountered. 2600:1700:6560:1CA0:D5AF:FCCA:2B63:F674 (talk) 02:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

(Sorry for my English) You are right. That was edited by me. I could not find error as I am intermediate if not beginner. thanks for letting us know. Maammee (talk) 17:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Regions with significant Oromo

Even though there is no total population of Oromo in USA, the largest Oromo community outside Africa found there. I wanted to put the known number of Oromo community in Minnesota. Is it possible to add population of Oromo of minnesota state in infobox under Regions with significant Population? (Sorry for my English) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maammee (talk • contribs) 09:54, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Malik Ambar source

@MfactDr: Hello thanks for the invitation, you added a source https://indianexpress.com/article/research/malik-ambar-aurangabad-mughals-jahangir-akbar-shivaji-6397143/, hoewever the source is contradictory and seems generally unreliable, it's speculative saying at one hand believed to be Oromo and on the other is from Habshi.

The archived source which was previously used states that he is from the extinct Maya group or Habashi [1] . Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 14:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Deqi-Arawit. "History Lesson: Malik Ambar". Archived from the original on 29 April 2012. Retrieved 9 September 2016.

Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2021

Please update the info box, the Oromo population in Ethiopia is estimated to be 55 Million. [44] Abdo1278 (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: the 55 million figure in that article appears to be an estimate for the entire Oromo population globally, not just in Ethiopia. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Note that the request was made by a block-evading sockpuppet account. --Yamla (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ethiopian-Adal Wars

"Somaliland" is the traditional rival of the Oromo.

Mogadishu is simply a port.

137.59.221.36 (talk)\~\\\\\\12:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)\\~ 137.59.221.36 (talk) 12:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Culture

The "Gaada", "Calendar", "Oromumma", "Social Stratification" where temporarily put in a "Culture" topic. This was done because they were under the "Oromo Dishes" topic. If anyone has a better topic to put those things on, feel free to edit. --Rory Kamau de Alencar Lourinho (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:1054:3015:ECC0:AC51:C0AF:BA1F:D898 (talk)

Mistake on Oromo population

  1. It says the total Oromo population is 60 million and the citation links to webstie that was written in 1993 and states the population of oromo is 30 million out of the 60 million population of Ethiopia. So one the website is highly irrelavant in this year and it says 30 million not 60 million.
  2. It says the population of Oromo is 55 million in Ethiopia and cites an article whose author claims that the population of oromo is estimated to be 55 million in EAST AFRICA, not ETHIOPIA specifically. The author also doesnt indicate where he has gotten this number from and none of the sources he cited goes further from 2005 but the wiki says the 55 million estimate is from 2021
  3. The same wiki article itself under demographics contradicts the population itself later on by claiming the population of oromo is 37 million and cites a source [17]

WaterManEdit (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I had a look at this. I think the Ethnomed source is unclear. It says "The Oromo people constitute the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, or about 30 million people out of a total population of 60 million". I'm not sure whether means that there are 30 million Oromo people in Ethiopia, and 60 million Oromo people in total, or 30 million Oromo people in Ethiopia and 60 million total inhabitants in Ethiopia. I would lean towards the latter but the Wikipedia article on Ethiopia says there are 114 million inhabitants. I looked for other sources but there is a lot of variation, and few sources which clearly refer to a figure for the total worldwide population.
  • Being and Becoming Oromo (1996) says that data are not reliable but that "there are probably 20 million people [in Africa] whose first language is Oromo and who recognise themselves as Oromo".[1]
  • Encyclopedia of African Peoples (2013) says "estimates ... vary between 2,500,000 and 25,000,000", but I think that just refers to Oromo people in Ethiopia.[2]
  • Crisis and Terror in the Horn of Africa (2017) says "the exact number of Oromo people [in Ethiopia] is unknown and disputed".[3] The author(s) goes on to quote population estimates of 7 to 30 million (in Ethiopia), and adds "clearly, political motives may prompt some to exaggerate or minimise the size of the Oromo population".
  • Helping Familiar Strangers (2022) refers to "an estimated global population of 25 million".[4]
  • Indigenous Peoples (2020) gives a similar figure of 25.4 million, but may not cover diaspora people (refers to Ethiopia, Sudan, Kenya).[5]
  • Human Rights in Ethiopia: Through the Eyes of the Oromo Diaspora (2009) says "It is difficult to gauge the exact number of Oromo migrants worldwide because most statistics are organized by country of origin, not ethnicity".[6]
It looks as if numbers are contentious. There is a Journal of Oromo Studies which looks like a potentially authoritative source, but is not online.
The point about the date of the source doesn't matter, I think - we can give the figure and then the date if necessary, if more recent sources are unavailable.
Tacyarg (talk) 14:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
i do not understand the confusion when it comes to this sentence "The Oromo people constitute the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, or about 30 million people out of a total population of 60 million", First it say the largest in ethiopia, then it it says 30 million out of 60 which means 30/60. The 60 is refering to ethiopia.
So we cant put it in total population bcs it's talking about ethiopia specifically and we cant even use it for oromo population in ethiopia bcs we have a more current source.
I think it is best to remove it completely if we can not find a good source. WaterManEdit (talk) 15:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
My confusion is that, if Ethnomed is a reliable source, and I can't see any indication that it isn't, I'm not sure why it would get the population of Ethiopia so wrong, stating 60 million rather than 114 million. That's what makes me wonder whether they mean 60 million Oromo people worldwide. But I agree, if unclear I think we should remove it. Some of the other population figures look unverifiable - the Kenyan figure doesn't match the source (no mention of Oromo people in source; figure of 656,636 may have been achieved by addition but I can't replicate it); the Somalia figure of 87,000 also doesn't match the source, which has 98,000, specifies "the Southern Oromo" and may not be a reliable source; and the Australian reference has no mention of Oromo people. Tacyarg (talk) 15:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
the article was written in 1993. The ethiopian population was not 114 million when the source was written. It was actually 53 million according to world bank.
The other sources are also concerning.
We also have another problem. Lostglowlight982 is undoing my change and he is known for eidt war. so perhaps you can make the edit WaterManEdit (talk) 16:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per consensus, no primary topic between the language and the people. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

– WP:Concise LeenchaOromia (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). – robertsky (talk) 19:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC) —Requested move of associated dab. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 03:35, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

This request needs much more discussion and is unlikely to be "uncontroversial". You have requested a significant change to the well-developed disambiguation page at Oromo. On whether the term "people" should be used in the title of the article for that group, Wikipedia does it both ways: see Kalmyks vs. French people among hundreds of examples. The difference is whether the name is used for a lot of other things as an adjective or signifier, which is the case with "Oromo". ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 15:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
@LeenchaOromia: I concur with Doomsdayer520. If you wish to pursue this, please open a formal move request that lists moving the dab page as well as the people page. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
@UtherSRG @Doomsdayer520 Based on these comments, I'm not sure if I'm correct in pursuing a move request yet. Should I address some points here and then if you guys feel like the points are valid, then open a formal move request? Or just go directly to making my points on the formal move request LeenchaOromia (talk) 15:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The editors have now launched the more formal discussion process, and the comments below indicate that a simple move request is not getting much support. Do not take it personally, as we all start somewhere and Wikipedia has a lot of policies to learn. If there is any confusion or controversy over how the term "Oromo" is used, that could possibly be explained as enhancements to the existing articles, instead of altering their titles. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 16:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Lol I'm not taking it personally don't worry lol. Sorry if I gave that impression. Or thanks if you're just simply trying to be proactive. But that won't be an issue with me lol. Everyone brought up valid and completely understandable points that I just simply didn't take into account for reasons that I'll address. Nothing for me to take personally here.
I realize now the formal process was already open below (I'm assuming), but I basically just wasn't sure where I should respond with my thoughts to. Below, or a separate "Formal Process" location. LeenchaOromia (talk) 18:43, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
I think this is a pretty important disambiguation page, and I don't think Oromo people would count as a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Anyway, that is up for a proper RM to decide. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 02:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Needs a RM, which oppose in advance. The language is equally notable. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

(copied from RM/TR) – robertsky (talk) 19:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Support Ok I see the issue now. So let me just share my perspective once and you guys can determine if it changes your views in any way.
The main point of contention here is the language. So this is how I view it "The Oromo are an ethnic group. They speak the Oromo language". Where Oromo is self-descriptory as the people, and you add "language" to it to describe that you are speaking of their language. It's like saying "Sheryl" and "Sheryl's hand". Amongst Oromo's, or even generally in Ethiopia, using "Oromo" synonymously with the language of Oromo's, is odd. It is like using "Sheryl's hand" synonymously with "Sheryl". Or to give a more direct analogy, it's like calling Arabic, "Arab". "I speak Arab". Saying "I speak Oromo" sounds the same way from an Oromo perspective at least. This oddity is why I erroneously assumed it would be an uncontroversial move.
It is formally called "Afaan Oromo" in the Oromo language. Which directly translates to "The Oromo Language". And informally called "Oromiffa". Also called "Oromic" or "Oromigna" in the Amharic language of Ethiopia.
So the issue now would be how Oromo's reference their language or view the usage of "Oromo" to reference their language vs. the typical way you see how ethnicity is synonymous with language in the western world. German, French, English.
A possible contention I could make to that argument would be the fact that it is also referenced as "The Oromo Language" by multiple sources whereas the people are seemingly most often referenced simply as "The Oromo" in sources.
Looking forward to your thoughts LeenchaOromia (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
What you're saying about the naming of things in Oromo is probably also how things work in most other languages of the world. But what's relevant here is how things work in English instead: most commonly, the same term is used to refer to both the ethnicity and the language. For example, "The French are mostly found in France" and "French is a Romance language"; it's partly because of this fact that French, like Oromo, is a disambiguation page. – Uanfala (talk) 11:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Understandable. How about the "Arab vs Arabic" point I made though LeenchaOromia (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The latter point would only be relevant if "Oromo" alone did not refer to the language, which is however not the case. The following are perfectly formed English sentences: "Oromo has the highest number of native speakers in Ethiopia." "The Oromo people are an ethnic group. They speak Oromo." I am aware of the fact that many Oromo prefer to see the language called Afaan Oromo instead of just "Oromo", but in general English usage, the latter still predominates. –Austronesier (talk) 18:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  1. ^ Baxter, P.T.W.; Hultin, J.; Triulzi, A. (1996). Being and Becoming Oromo: Historical and Anthropological Enquiries. Nordiska Afrikainstitutet. p. 61. ISBN 978-91-7106-379-3. Retrieved 27 Dec 2022.
  2. ^ The Diagram Group (2013). Encyclopedia of African Peoples. Taylor & Francis. p. 93. ISBN 978-1-135-96334-7. Retrieved 27 Dec 2022.
  3. ^ Toggia, P.; Lauderdale, P. (2017). Crisis and Terror in the Horn of Africa: Autopsy of Democracy, Human Rights and Freedom. Law, Social Change and Development Series. Taylor & Francis. p. 77. ISBN 978-1-351-94744-2. Retrieved 27 Dec 2022.
  4. ^ Olliff, L. (2022). Helping Familiar Strangers: Refugee Diaspora Organizations and Humanitarianism. Worlds in Crisis: Refugees, Asylum, and Forced Migration. Indiana University Press. p. 65. ISBN 978-0-253-06358-8. Retrieved 27 Dec 2022.
  5. ^ Williams, V.R. (2020). Indigenous Peoples: An Encyclopedia of Culture, History, and Threats to Survival [4 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. p. 848. ISBN 978-1-4408-6118-5. Retrieved 27 Dec 2022.
  6. ^ "Human Rights in Ethiopia: Through the Eyes of the Oromo Diaspora" (PDF). The Advocates for Human Rights. 2009. Retrieved 27 December 2022.
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