Talk:Operation Zauberflöte

CE

Tidied prose blammed a few typos, auto edded, checked for dupe wikilinks.Keith-264 (talk) 18:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

B class review

• This seems very vague. What/who specifically were they looking for? How did they know it when they found it? You could include more detail on why and how the operation worked. Need a disamb on Operation Zauberflöte the naval action....
• Who were the free riders? how did the discovery of the free riders lead to the razzia? I'd actually rate this as a stub, simply because it is incomplete. auntieruth (talk) 14:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: The first item is addressed in the article:

• "...the search of the city, including 130,000 dwellings, for "bandits, Bolshevik terror and saboteur troops, operatives and helpers". The result would be the eradication of resistance within the city and the registration of fugitives for punishment or deportation to Germany."

References

What appears to be unclear as to the purpose of the operation?

The discovery of the free riders did not lead to the "razzia" (I assume you mean roundup). The operation lead to the discovery of the free riders, i.e. people boarding trains without tickets.

On the second item, the article is as complete as the sources allow. So I don't really understand your concern here. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Do we know what was the instigating event for this? They discovered "free riders", but why did they look for anyone? It sounds like a razzia in which they were looking for bolsheviks, etc.

The SS-Sonderkommando "Dirlewanger" Rolf Michaelis Schiffer Publishing, Limited, 2013 is what I'm thinking about. auntieruth (talk) 15:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

French L. MacLean, The Cruel Hunters, Schiffer Pub., 1998.

Joachim Lund Working for the new order: European business under German domination, 1939-1945 University Press of Southern Denmark, 2006

Philip Blood includes a lot of information on how and why this was organized, as well. auntieruth (talk) 15:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: Re: "why did they look for anyone?" -- to eradicate real or perceived resistance in Minsk and improve security. That's laid out in the goals of the operation. Blood is already used in the article.

I would not use Schiffer Publishing for anything relating to the German security operations in occupied Europe. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:18, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Literature

okay, then how about:

1. Die Einheit Dirlewanger Hellmuth Auerbach Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte 10. Jahrg., 3. H. (Jul., 1962), pp. 250-263
2. The promise of the East : Nazi hopes and genocide, 1939-43, Charles Ingrao, Medford, MA : Polity Press, [2018] ©2018
3. Les Chasseurs noirs: La brigade Dirlewanger by Christian Ingrao, Perrin, 2007 (there is an English version I think)
4. Hitlers Elite : die Wegbereiter des nationalsozialistischen Massenmords Christian Ingrao; Enrico Heinemann; Ursel Schäfer, Berlin : Propyläen, 2012.
5. The Germans and the East, Charles W Ingrao; Franz A J Szabo, West Lafayette, Ind. : Purdue University Press, ©2008.
6. Gone to Pitchipoi: A Boy's Desperate Fight for Survival in Wartime Rubin KATZ Academic Studies Press 2012
7. Chapter 9 The Minsk Experience: German Occupiers and Everyday Life in the Capital of Belarus Stephan Lehnstaedt,New York : Berghahn, 2016.
8. The Minsk Ghetto 1941-1943: Jewish Resistance and Soviet Internationalism Barbara Epstein Berkeley (Calif.) : University of California Press, cop. 2008.

Just a few ideas....auntieruth (talk) 14:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: thanks for the list. Do you know if these sources cover Operation Zauberflöte? If yes, to which extent? K.e.coffman (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: they cover the situation in which the Operation occurred. Pitchipoi is a first hand account of living in Minsk/Minsk region during the time. These are good sources, though, that explain the conditions in which the Operation occurred, how the German troops were occupied (generally, they controlled the corridor, and the Latvians did much of the dirty work). There is also, of course, Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men. Does not deal with this directly, but, again, explains the structure of operations in the area, how the process worked, why it was implemented, etc. auntieruth (talk) 14:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that a general bibliography of books that do not discuss the operation is helpful here. Especially give the fact that Blood's Hitler's Bandit Hunters discusses both. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

I do think a contextualized section of this event would be useful to offer an understanding of the event. This operation was part of a larger pattern of operations that sought to separate various populations--Jews, Communists, etc., from the general population, to eliminate possible resistance, and to round up the Jews in particular, as part of the Final Solution. auntieruth (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)