Talk:Operation Trio/Archive 1

Archive 1

Move to Operation Trio

Following agreement here (Talk:Battle_of_Kozara), I am moving this article to 'Operation Trio' per the German operation name. Please read the discussion for reasoning. The scope of the article will include the Black Legion offensive that preceded Operation Trio as well as the operation itself. Peacemaker67 (talk) 02:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Issue of which side the Chetniks were on

I have moved this discussion here because User:Calapone has rightly raised the issue with User:PRODUCER. Chetniks were (at different stages and in different areas) on both sides of Operation Trio. We need to somehow reflect this in the article. In late March-early April, Francetić independently attacked Dangić's Chetniks and routed them. Operation Trio proper didn't start until 20 April, and involved Germans, Italians, Ustaše and Home Guard formations and units attacking the Chetnik-infiltrated Partisans in eastern Bosnia. It was a pretty confused situation in eastern Bosnia at that stage. Then, in the second half of May, strong Italian formations supported by Bosnian and Herzegovinian Chetniks attacked the Partisans in eastern Herzegovina, essentially all but destroying them. These are facts clearly explained by both Tomasevich and Hoare. Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Then it must be clearly explained in the article which Chetniks fought on which side during all stages of the operation.--Calapone (talk) 12:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree, I'm thinking something like the treatment in the infobox of Operation Uzice. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:05, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

It's like the citations don't even matter.

"On 15 April, a combined German-Italian-Ustaša-Chetnik counteroffensive (the "Third Enemy Offenseive") put serious pressure on the Partsans..." (Ramet (2006), p. 153)

"on April 15 the Germans, Croatian quisling troops, and Italians, with some help from the Chetniks, launched another large-scale offensive (the Third Enemy Offensive) in southeastern Bosnia, eastern Herzegovina, and Montenegro." Tomasevich (1975), p. 161

"only operations in eastern Bosnia by German and Croatian troops and in Montenegro and eastern Herzegovina by Italian and Montenegrin Chetnik forces were undertaken from March to June 1942 (the Third Enemy Offensive)." Tomasevich (2001), p. 414 -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 12:11, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps part of the problem is that we are currently including in the scope of this article the offensive launched by Francetić. He launched it without coordinating with the Germans, and strictly speaking (and according to Hoare) it is a prequel to Operation Trio,(Hoare p. 202-203 refers) and constitutes both a Ustaše-Chetnik fight and Ustaše-Partisan fight. And btw, www.axishistory.com isn't a WP:RS. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I have the Yugoslav military encyclopedia (1975 edition) with me. The book 10 says that the NDH government wanted to prevent the Italians and their Chetnik allies from entering Eastern Bosnia (page 95), which is why the Ustashe started their attack before the schedule. The Chetniks who fought for the Axis during the operation were from Herzegovina and Montenegro, and they never entered Eastern Bosnia (page 96). The book 2 says that there were 4000 Chetniks in Eastern Bosnia, and that some of them fought against the Germans and Ustashe (page 544). --Calapone (talk) 12:35, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Peacemaker, that's the problem. Francetic independently launched a separate offensive on his own initiative prior to this one taking place, thus this cannot be factored in the infobox and is in defiance of the quotes I listed above. Also, I can't stress enough how inappropriate it is to change sentences into something that is not actually supported by the sources cited as Calapone has done. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 12:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you doubting the Yugoslav military sources, Producer?--Calapone (talk) 12:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with PRODUCER, on reflection the question is what the scope of this article is. We could describe the Francetić operation as part of the Background as a preliminary op or prequel, but Tomasevich, Ramet and Hoare are all saying that Operation Trio proper involved Chetniks on the side of the Axis. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm proposing this introduction:Operation Trio, also known as the Third Enemy Offensive (Serbo-Croatian: Treća neprijateljska ofenziva) in Yugoslav Partisan historiography, was a large-scale German-Italian-Ustaša offensive carried out against the Partisans and Chetniks in southeastern Bosnia from March to June 1942.. The Chetniks of eastern Herzegovina and Montenegro helped the Italians in destroying the Partisans in those areas.--Calapone (talk) 12:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

It is far more complex than that, and in fact ignores references PRODUCER has... produced. I'm going to need some time to pull together all the references so we can see where the commonalities and variances are. We are close to 3RR at present, so I suggest we just stick with what the references that are already in the article actually say until we can thrash this thing out. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

According to this, the operation was cancelled before the end of April, and the Italian/Chetnik fights against the partisans in Sandžak and Montenegro were actually a separate operation, Operation Foča.--Calapone (talk) 12:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

It isn't a WP:RS. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:57, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Colić, Mladenko - Pregled Operacija na Jugoslovenskom Ratištu 1941-1945 (Belgrade: Vojnoistorijski Institut, 1988), pp 53-55; NARA WashDC: RG 242 (T-501 roll 250/361-69). Operation Foča between 5 – 12 May 1942 was a follow on from Operation Trio. --Calapone (talk) 13:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, I found one hit for Operation Foča on Google Books (and none on Scholar) which makes it look like it and Trio were both parts of the Third Enemy Offensive. Hmmm. What else does it say? Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's the list of German documents from January to December 1942. Number 65, general Bader orders the units under his command to start Operation Foča, April 30, 1942.--Calapone (talk) 13:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

"ZBORNIK DOKUMENATA VOJNOISTORIJSKOG INSTITUTA: TOM XII - DOKUMENTI JEDINICA, KOMANDI I USTANOVA NEMAČKOG RAJHA KNJIGA 2 - 1942. GODINA 2, page 267" - Francetić's Black Legion attacked the Chetnik territory around Vlasenica. Chetniks were caught between two fires. - The other fire was coming from the Partisan 1st and the 2nd proleterian brigade, which gave rise to the Chetnik propaganda about the Ustashe-Partisan alliance. Ironic, isn't it? --Calapone (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The same book, page 306, the German report dated April 20, 1942. Francetić's breakthrough to the Drina river turned into a devastating blow against the main parts of Dangić's group. The situation on the Serbian-Croatian border is still unclear, because the Partisans are fighting only against Dangić's supporters, not against the Ustashe.--Calapone (talk) 13:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Sigh, primary. Again, two separate offensives. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 13:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

You are right, PRODUCER. It is WP:PRIMARY. However, we still have the problem of equating Operation Trio with the Third Enemy Offensive in the lead. Operation Trio appears to have been part of the Third Enemy Offensive, not the whole thing, which covered more ground. And the Ustaše offensive is clearly not part of it (according to the WP:RS we have). So we need to decide what to do with the Ustaše offensive. If the article is only about Operation Trio, perhaps we need to limit it to that, and leave out the Ustaše offensive and Operation Foča. However, there doesn't appear to be sufficient WP:RS for Operation Foča to have its own article, so how do we include it? Peacemaker67 (talk) 15:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

By renaming this article "Third Enemy Offensive" and making three subsections with three separate infoboxes. One for Francetić's operation, one for Operation Trio, and one for Operation Foča.--Calapone (talk) 15:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. We just went through the process of moving away from the artificial Partisan-centric propaganda construct of the 'seven enemy offensives', and I believe that was the right decision for the reasons explained in the talkpage of Battle of Kozara. I would be much happier with covering the Ustasha offensive of 31 March in the Black Legion (needs to be added) and Francetic (already there in summary) articles and keeping this article to Trio and its aftermath, particularly as we have no WP:RS for Operation Foca and sources that say the Ustasha offensive was not part of Trio. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Peacemaker. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 23:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm still very busy with real-life studies (hopefully putting an end to them for good :)), so I won't be able to participate here (and probably won't reply for quite a while), but here's my two cents. Infoboxes can be modified to denote practically any and all changes in allegiance that can possibly occur. Note the Operation Uzice infobox. If we're all clear on exactly who fought with who at any given time, the infobox can easily be made to depict this. (Sry if I'mmissing something, be back in a week or so.) -- Director (talk) 11:34, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

Did the Chetniks fight on different sides during this conflict or not? -- Director (talk) 11:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The short answer is I don't know yet, the situation was very confused, and and it is hard to define clearly what a Chetnik was at this stage (leaving aside Dangić's and Račić's units). Hoare (who is the most comprehensive source for this) jumps around all over the place, and I'm having to go right through the relevant chapters and look at everything that happened in the area of operations between the start and end dates. Dangić fought the Black Legion immediately before the operation began (the Partisans also attacked Dangić's Chetniks while they were being attacked by the Black Legion). Actual Chetnik units were pretty scarce when the operation actually kicked off around 20 April due to their defeats at the hands of the Partisan main force and mass defections of Chetniks to the "Volunteer Detachments" in March. I am still pulling together all the details of the operation itself, so I'm leaving them as separate groups in the infobox until I actually have trawled through everything and can categorically source it one way or the other. Clear as mud? Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugh.. never understood this mess myself. This is probably the most complex "Offensive" of the war. Kudos on your efforts. -- Director (talk) 12:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

They fought on their own side, which meant (at that time), try to avoid fighting against the Germans, be at peace with the Italians, and attack the Ustashe and Partisans whenever you can. I advise you to read ZBORNIK DOKUMENATA I PODATAKA O NARODNOOSLOBODILAČKOM RATU NARODA JUGOSLAVIJE, KNJIGA 2. You can download it here.--Calapone (talk) 16:13, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

but that is a WP:PRIMARY source, is it not? Peacemaker67 (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Not acceptable unless quoted verbatim. -- Director (talk) 06:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Chetnik Commanders

Ramet (2006) p. 166 states that Chetnik commanders Pavle Djurisic, Petar Bacovic, and Rade Korda took part in the Third Enemy Offensive against the Partisans. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 09:56, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. I am sure she is referring to the follow-up operation by the Italians in Herzegovina and Montenegro. In my view this again illustrates the difficulites of the "X enemy offensives" construct which Direktor and I have been discussing off and on for months [1]. My current intent is that the various 'operations' will be associated with the "X enemy offensive" to which they relate, but that we no longer try to equate one operation with each offensive (unless of course they are identical in scope). Thus, this article becames one of two articles that are associated with the "Third enemy offensive". The other one is the yet to be created Herzegovina offensive (1942) article (tentative title), which will cover the Italian-Chetnik follow-up operation mentioned above. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

She says they "were taking part in the German "Third Offensive"". --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 13:51, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes I know, I was just reading that. But this article is about Trio, not the Italian-Chetnik operation which formed the latter part of the Third Enemy Offensive. That's why I haven't included them here. In Trio the Chetniks were a third force, but in the Italian-Chetnik operation they fought alongside the Italians. Different lots of Chetniks I might add, too. Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Map size

The map is just too large.. Its ok on higher resolutions, but on low-res and phones the map is just humongous. -- Director (talk) 08:14, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, just leave it for a day and I'll upload an eastern Bosnia version and create a template for it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)