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I want to open a discussion here about a thing. I have modified the page with two references
to ndOpenCV (OpenCV for Nanodesktop PSP). Your user femmina has erased my references. I would a debate and a votation about these references, because I believe that it is an important work and that it merits to be cited in Wikipedia. I've restored the changes in way that it is possible to see how the page appeared. Thanks for your attention.
[For the webmasters: if I've written in the wrong section, please excuse me and correct my message] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.18.173.152 (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rest of the discussion he already had with me is here [1] at the end of my talk page. There are various problems with the above user "contribution". Mainly lack of any citation or reference for the "successful application" and the inability of his customized version of the library to run on any standard device on the market (Sony PSPs can only run signed binaries). I think that maybe a link to his work could be placed in PSP homebrew rather than in this page. -- Femmina (talk) 21:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you want a reference to a successful application that uses this porting, it's simple: Blind Assistant is one of the software that uses it. Another is CamShift demo. The reference is useful here for this simple reason: the reseachers that look for a way to run OpenCV on a cheap and embedded device, search in Wikipedia the word OpenCV and so they have notice of the existence of this porting for the PSP. If we put the reference in the homebrew voice, the researchers in the universities that are looking for a way of execution under an embedded device cannot see the reference and so it is unuseful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.18.173.152 (talk) 22:05, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Researchers in the universities should not bother to hack their PSPs to do something that can be done legally with a PC104, a Mini itx or any other industrial PC for the same price or less. What 87.18.173.152 is trying to advertise here is silly. -- Femmina (talk) 04:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is pointless (and lack of any sense, and demential). Does the voice go to wikipedia only if Femmina retains that the project is good for her ? For example, an user application like Blind Assistant cannot be realized using a PC-104. Because PC-104 hasn't an incorporated display. And after all, one thing is to use a commercial device, that someone can buy anywhere, and a different thing is to use an industrial device, that can be bought only in particular companies and that has a difficult reperibility. But the real point of the question is that a voice can be deleted if it is false. You are saying, instead, that the voice must like to the moderator. Since femmina retains that the porting is useless (and it is only her opinion, and absolutely WRONG), the reference must be erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.173.74 (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I have problems understanding your english and your intentions, so maybe let's just wait a bit and see what other people opinions on this subject are. Display modules are available for PC104s but why you need an high resolution color display for a device that is supposed to help blind people? Also, I don't like your personal attacks. -- Femmina (talk) 07:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- When you want to distribute your free application (because all software that we're telling about is free), can you say to the blind: "buy an industrial device, buy a display, buy a cabinet, program its firmware..." ? It's lack of sense. The concept of a porting of the OpenCV libraries, that uses the power of the VFPU of a console to speed up the computations and that runs on a commercial device, available anywhere, IS an advantage. This isn't a useless porting, you're wrong.
A QUESTION: Femmina, VCRT is officially supported by OpenCv team, isn't it ?
- So what? - Femmina (talk) 20:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you said that ndOpenCV hasn't to be cited because the PSP version isn't officially supported by Intel ? Well, neither Mac OS X nor VCRT version are supported by Intel, but, for any strange reason, you tolerate them in the page. Have you said that the ndOpenCV applications require signed binaries (but this what changes for Wikipedia goals?): well, the version for VCRT is for embedded and proprietary platform only, so you cannot create your application on this platform (only the producer of the camera can). But, for any absurd reason, VCRT is cited and Nanodesktop isn't. The truth is that you are climbing on the mirrors because you've decided that ndOpenCV hasn't to be cited, but you haven't any believable technical or logical reason to justify this. In this way, you damage the efforts of the italian developers that are involved in this project and that have worked for 2 years on this. The annoying thing is that your decision is simply arbitrary. You are the only member that is creating all these troubles: in this discussion nobody has created troubles or has written to tell his position. At this point, I don't care the demential justifications of your **arbitrary** decision, like that OpenCV can be used without HighGUI (ROFTL) or that I can use an industrial device like PC-107 (ROFTL again). I repeat you: this is only a "climbing on the mirror". At this point, write your page with the contents that you've decided: it is clear that you've become the owner of the page....
- I've said that your software won't run on any commercially available device as it requires an illegal and risky modification to be performed on the PSP in order to run. Moreover, your project is utterly non-notable and what you're really trying to accomplish here is self promotion. Oh, and you're rude, some of the technical details you cite are false and most of the things you say don't make any sense. - Femmina (talk) 03:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is illegal only in your head. And, in any case, the manifest of Wikipedia doesn't say that a project is cited only if it likes to Femmina or if Femmina retains that it can be useful (in her, very very limited, opinion). I believe that the page is public and doesn't own to Femmina. I don't understand why VCRT porting must be cited and why Nanodesktop isn't. I note you that you are the ONLY member that is creating these troubles for a citation of FIVE WORDS, the others have accepted tacitly the thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.15.108 (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Slightly Off topic : PSPs with firmware 1.50 allow this PSP application to run according to the project documentation. PSPs with firmware 1.50 have been made commercially and legally available by Sony themselves a few years ago. I'd like Femmina to give their source of information when they say it is illegal and risky to buy a product officially sold for months by the original maker.
Back on topic, I don't see why the project wouldn't be added at least in the links section, or "successful applications" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.171.180.101 (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Only the old PSP "fat" can run the 1.50 kernel and you still need to use the "%" exploit, which messes up the memory card as a side effect. The "fat" model is out of production. -- Femmina (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What are you talking about "messing up" the memory card? Its just a folder. If you are referring to the additional icon of the extra folder in the Game menu, then that can be avoided by adding "__SCE__" to the folder name.122.164.9.139 (talk) 18:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Really? That's relevant. Tell me more. -- Femmina (talk) 19:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that you see "Damaged data" for the application that uses the % character in the PSP dashboard, doesn't mean that the memory stick is damaged. Simply, PSP firmware doesn't recognize the % folder and it recognizes only the main folder. There are also utilities, like PSPBrew, that hides the unrecognizable component on the memory stick, so that you don't see it in your PSP dashboard. (Naturally, the entire content is always accessible via USB cable).
- Are you sure? -- Femmina —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]
- Yes. Absolutely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.18.174.130 (talk) 01:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try again with a dotted list of issues this time. Maybe it's easier to read for you PSP guys. So your project from an encyclopedic point of view has at least the following problems:
- Lack of notability.
- Lack of citations on any media except on your own personal page.
- Lack of independent reviews.
- Lack of hardware on which to run it.
- Indirectly promotes and requires home made modification that enable game piracy as a side effect.
And many more including the rudeness of the main developer. Care to reply to this without going off topic again? -- Femmina (talk) 16:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll answer to all your observations
- As ndOpenCV is a part of a larger project called Nanodesktop, you must look for Nanodesktop instead that for ndOpenCV itself. Nanodesktop: 21000 links returned by Google. Project substained by Visilab Research Center - University of Messina - Italy. A thesis work has been based on this system and a publication on the international papers is in preparation. Furthermore, we must look for the applications (a library is a library). Blind Assistant for PSP: 204000 links from Google. ndOpenCV CAMShift Demo: 148 links from Google. SIFT under Nanodesktop: video available in network. Here are the articles about Nanodesktop tecnology (I repeat that ndOpenCV is a component of this):
- http://pspupdates.qj.net/tags/nanodesktop/6029 (USA)
- http://www.pspgen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5825 (France)
- http://pspstation.org/printview.php?f=1&t=2675&start=0 (Spain)
- http://bbs.pspchina.net/redirect.php?tid=239352&goto=lastpost (China)
- http://psp0kaizou.blog36.fc2.com/blog-entry-316.html (Japan)
- http://www.7lanet.com/vb/tags-assistant.html (Saudith Arabia)
- http://www.consoleforums.net/showthread.php?t=4542&page=5 (FinLand)
- Lack of citations on any media except on your own personal page
- Absolutely false. Nanodesktop has been cited all over the world, and the applications based on ndOpenCV also. There is more notability for ndOpenCV than for VCRT OpenCV
- Lack of indipendent reviews
- As I said, a porting of a library is a porting of a library. What you can see, is a sort of independent reviews of the applications that has been developed with the porting. For example,here is the indipendent reviews for Blind Assistant (that is based on ndOpenCV)
- http://psp.scenebeta.com/noticia/blind-assistant
- Lack of hardware on which to run it
- Absolutely false. The hardware exists and it is called Sony Playstation Portable. Your considerations about DMCA are only your considerations and they are only mistifications of the trouble. For example, the site reports OpenCV on Cell processor for Playstation 3. Why ? That porting, exactly like ndOpenCV, requires a modchip (so, even a modification of the hardware, even worse than in case of ndOpenCV) to run. But, for strange reasons, you don't erase the citation of OpenCV for Cell, and instead erase the citation of OpenCV for PSP
- Indirectly promotes and requires home made modification that enable game piracy as a side effect
- This is not linked to the concepts at base of Wikipedia manifest (I repeat: they are only your technical considerations, very opinable). And, I repeat: why you don't erase OpenCV for PS3 (cell processor) ?
- Not that I don't support you or anything, but I'd just like to point out that you can run linux on a PS3 without any hardware modification. It's even officially supported by Sony. -- nielkie (talk) 1:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Three homebrew specific blogs? Is that all you've got? Sincerely I don't think your project deserve to be mentioned. As for the rest of the article, you're free to modify it like everyone else. -- Femmina (talk) 11:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, you are an idiot girl: why? You don't know what Nanodesktop can do... you're climbing on a mirror (ok, now you'll write that I'm addled because my English isn't correct, but I'm 16 italian... ): you are writing in every answer that this project is illicit because we have to hack our console to play it, but you're faulting, infact, if you see the formers links, you can see that here, in our Italy hacking a console is legal... Now what will you say? That Nanodesktop is illegal again, isn't it? Or maybe will you say that this project isn't enough notable? Shut up, stupid...
see here... http://www.psp-ita.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23
What will you say? I'm so curious... [blu_eye4]
- I'm not going to say anything I didn't already. The legality of hacking a console the way you need to run your code is questionable, it enables game piracy as a side effect, it's difficult and risky to do in practice, you lose your warranty, won't work on new consoles, and besides that your projects (nanodesktop and ndopencv) aren't notable enough to be mentioned in the article. That's what I've learned from you in past days you've been insulting me all over this place. -- Femmina (talk) 12:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And, in second place, you're decided that this project cannot be cited because you are the owner of the page... Because the concepts that you are cited aren't linked in any way with the Wikipedia manifest. The manifest doesn't say that the project must like to Femmina, or that Femmina must retain it is interessant for her. I'm thinking that you have confused the rules of Wikipedia, with a form of control of the contents that must be submitted to your personal preferences. It is of no importance what Femmina retains about DMCA, PC-107, the possibility of using OpenCV without HighGUI (roftl!), the relevance of the project evaluated by your Google account. This is PERSONAL preferences and opinions that you have, but this cannot determine what must be published and must not. You're exerciting a form of controls of the contents of this page. And you are the ONLY PERSON that is creating all there troubles, because the other users haven't had any problems with this page. Your bad faith and your disonesty is showed by the fact that you're creating all this opposition again ndOpenCV, but you're tollerating OpenCV for PS3 (here the user hasn't to use ISO loaders and similar systems ? Why you haven't erased these contribs ?) and OpenCV for VCRT (commercial porting, closed, and with only 100 links in all Internet). (Pegasus). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.168.188 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A note for Femmina, Google on Blind Assistant PSP gives a little more than 5 results...
- [URL=http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard01tw2.png][IMG]http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6403/clipboard01tw2.th.png[/IMG][/URL]
- (Pegasus) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.19.160.82 (talk) 12:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On my google that query gives me 5 unique results. I don't know... Maybe you google is different than mine. Oh, yes "Blind Assistant PSP" gives 10 results and those are blogs and personal pages. Means nothing. -- Femmina (talk) 12:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps... if you don't use the " " characters... (Pegasus)
I knew that you had said that... Now, listen to me: i buy a console that is limited in its features, but i want to improve it: i can do it!! It is legal!! Are you maybe more important than laws? There are laws that say that... why do you not accept this? Now i will tell why Nanodesktop isn't notability (for you... in my opinion it isn't so...): This project is a case of degree, if you wait a moment you'll see that is the most important project that there is on PSP... Do you not look? With Nanodesktop you can do a lot of things that are impossible with Sony firmwares... Is it illagel for you? I don't understand you... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blu eye4 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither do I. Especially the reason why you're wasting so much time and efforts on a toy. -- Femmina (talk) 14:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Because it's clear that you are abusing of your position. All your sentences are pretestual, your behaviour is annoying and arrogant. How many time have you spent avoiding that a simple citation is put on Wikipedia page ? (Pegasus). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.16.174.187 (talk) 14:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Granted, it is a toy, but that does not make it any less of a hardware platform - it is cheap, easily available, and relatively easy to develop for. There are no other portable device with similar capabilities for a similar price. Just look at the Xbox homebrew community. It's also a toy. Countless people around the world, including myself, use their xbox for a media centre with the homebrew software, "XBMC". XBMC has also won the Sourceforge community choice awards in 2006 for daming and multimedia, and the 2008 awards for gaming. -- nielkie (talk) 1:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- But sourceforge can't distribute an XBMC binary for the xbox because it's not legal to do so. But that is out of context here anyway and this is not a (piracy oriented) forum. -- Femmina (talk) 04:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I repeat you: creating an own program for the own console is perfectly legal, also in USA. Why the porting of OpenCV for PS3 is cited, instead ? How can you run a OpenCV application for PS3 ? Do you need a ISO loader, don't you ? (Pegasus)
- From WP:3O
Forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions about what the actual controversy is here, but it appears that one user, under a variety of ip addresses and usernames, insists on adding a mention of or reference to a product or piece of software in which he has a vested interest. If that is the case, that is considered advertising, and is not permitted under Wikipedia policy. Again, if I'm wrong, please correct me. —BradV 05:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you are wrong. Simply, I've talked with other users and developers in Italy and in USA about this controversy, and all retain that I'm right and that Femmina is wrong. It is clear that some of them come here and say their opinion. In this day we are simply basited for the disonesty and for the bad faith that Femmina is showing. (Pegasus)
I'll add this. I have studied your DMCA law, and I have found this. This is not important in any case because nd is a library for the development of own scientifical applications and it isn't connected in any way with piracy but... let's read Title 17, Section 1201:
Reverse Engineering. -
(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term interoperability means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
So, also in USA developing an own program with the own console is a legal operation (as the same Sony management said..). The obietions put by Femmina is totally lack of sense. (Pegasus)
- He thinks he has some sort of right to advertise his project on this page. A large part of the problem is that the only references he could provide are a few blogs and forum posts. -- Femmina (talk) 13:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the real trouble is that we (I and my community) think that a moderator of Wikipedia must be superpartes, and that he must act only if the news is false or violates openly the rules of the enciclopedia. This means that the own technical considerations or political, ideological, personal opinions would have to be outside of the discussion. And, above all, that he should be in good faith. You're the only person that is opposing in this way. Have you excepted that the production of homebrew is "piracy" ? False, I've demonstrated the opposite. Have you said that Nanodesktop isn't known ? False, I've demonstrated the opposite: since you're a disonest person, you use the " " characters in way of reducing the number of results, but I've shown the reality. Strangely, you do nothing against VCRT OpenCV that is commercial and absolutely not known. Have you excepted that OpenCV isn't officially supported by Intel? Well, neither Cell version neither VCRT or MacOSX are, but you don't erase those... There are hundreds of pages of documentation, applications, a community, several blogs, and you continue to create troubles based on pretestual and absurd excuses... (Pegasus)
The above user (Pegasus)? [2] is also responsible for this edit [3]. There another editor reverted his changes on that page for the same reasons I'm opposing him here. As you can see he tried to sneak into the article a long, meaningless, unreferenced piece of text laced with advertising for the same product he's trying to promote here. -- Femmina (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my god, I don't know how you think... Ok, I will tell you for the last time: This project is a legal project which is a graduate thesis and it isn't a non-profit project. Now there is a large underground scene in the PSP homebrew world and there are 2 sdk: one is PSPSDK and the other is Nanodesktop, Ok? Now, we know that wikipedia is a free encyclopedia where a persone can know how to do a thing... If I want to develop an homebrew I HAVE TO KNOW HOW I CAN DO IT!! It isn't a reclame... Now shut up, there are other user that think as me too!!! You're alone... you're faulting, admit it... (I know that there are a lot of grammatical mistakes...) [blu_eye4]
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