Talk:Online self-harm

Too broad?

I feel like this article is overly broad. Technically speaking things like the aerosol and ice challenges aren't "self-harm" in the way that cutting yourself is self-harm; it's just someone being being stupid and not realizing that they're going to be seriously injured by participating in childish activities.

Now, the self-harm/self-trolling as described is self-harm, and I think that should be the major focus of this article. There also seems to be a fair bit of research/studies about the subject. Just posting here to get thoughts from other editors before making any big changes. WP:MED has been informed. Primefac (talk) 18:24, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Primefac: If one is to assume the medical definition of self-harm is correct, that is "Self-harm is when somebody intentionally damages or injures their body" then it would answer your propersition as to if "Technically speaking things like the aerosol and ice challenges are self-harm." One would have to change the definition of self-harm in a literal sense in order for it not to apply to inflicting harm upon oneself as a manifestation of peer-pressure ect. The article does clearly explain reasons which go beyond that of self-harming behavior associated with any single causation such as those typically found in relation to cutting onself. Wiki-Coffee ^Talk 19:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking more the second sentence of your first ref, It's usually a way of coping with or expressing overwhelming emotional distress. This is why I said it wasn't the same type of self-harm, compared to things like cutting or insulting yourself via online mechanism. I'm not denying that it's self-harm, but it's not due to emotional distress. This is why I'm concerned that either the article title is too vague, or alternately, needs to be defined better in the lead.

The lead currently reads [it] is the practice of intentionally self-harming and posting the results or process.... With (for example) the ice cube challenge, the goal is not "intentionally self-harming", it's "see how long you can do this painful thing". While the stories that make the news are the ones who went too far, not everyone comes away permanently scarred. This is why I'm not overly convinced such topics should be included with more serious psychological issues where the point is to damage oneself.

But, I'm just one person, which is why I thought a dialogue was best, and why I invited the Medical WikiProject in for their thoughts. Primefac (talk) 19:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Primefac: Furthermore I have decided to BOGOFF from this discussion and related article. As you have stated yourself "But, I'm just one person" I am feeling the same way. Nice to see you and thank you for contributing to the article. Wiki-Coffee ^Talk 19:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• should be consistent w/ NIH[1]...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
• I wonder if it'd be better to merge this into Self-harm. OTOH, maybe the subject isn't actually "self-harm"; maybe the subject is "doing stupid or dangerous stuff to get attention", in which case, the proper merge target is attention seeking. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:01, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I think this particular article could get split in both directions. The "self-trolling"/Reddit-shaming could go as a section in self-harm, the ice cubes and stupid stuff going into attention seeking. Sound reasonable? Primefac (talk) 02:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

That sounds okay to me. If we decide later that we don't like it, then we could always try something else then.

I would particularly like to know what User:Wiki-Coffee thinks of that idea, since Wiki-Coffee is the person who has spent the most time reading sources about this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: @WhatamIdoing: In lieu of your request for a comment. "Ice cubes and stupid stuff going into attention seeking" No Medical sources that I can find reference this behaviour being classified as "attention seeking behaviours." Furthermore, Using the term "attention seeking behaviour" would imply that this is the sole influence when sources indicate it is not. For example, this source indicates that it was influenced by peer-pressure and alcohol. The Medical definition of self-harm is a literal interpretation of the words “self” and “harm” in that it is to harm oneself. More than one source which I have listed below indicate self-harm to be when one causes physical harm to their own body, while they say that it is “usually” a result of emotional distress or related mental illness it does not say it is an absolute requirement. I have rested on the literal interpretation for the term “self-harm” and thus would not believe a change of terminology would accurately reflect the term used by the Medical community for those who perform acts of self-mutilation because of the factors listed as causes in this article. Another source listed below also specifically indicates that this trend in self-mutilating behaviours “divorced self-harm from phycological issues.” Wiki-Coffee ^Talk 17:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I've been looking at a couple of these sources. Here's how one incident is described: "a permanent scar on her leg as a painful reminder of what she thought was "harmless fun". Doing something that you believe (rightly or wrongly) is harmless sounds to me like the opposite of "somebody intentionally damages or injures their body" (NHS Choices definition of self-harm).

I think it might be interesting to see if this is addressed in academic journals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: I must note now that while I do enjoy informing others of things that I do not have an overbearing interest in it and that the sources I have provided and a google search will enlighten those in this discussion further as to the various applications of the term “self-harm.” I’d thoroughly love to BOGOFF from this discussion if I am honest as I feel that I am clarifying why a chicken is a chicken and an egg is an egg. I appreciate your guys time in helping improve this article so I will leave it in your more than capable hands, as frankly, I have lost sufficient interest in it. I hope you enjoy the sources and have learnt something about an unconventional form of self-harm. Wiki-Coffee ^Talk 18:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Current content does not meet WP:MEDRS and I am concerned it is a bit SYNTH-y. Searching for the phrase "online self-harm" in the academic literature, nearly everything you find is about online self-harm/pro-suicide groups, which is quite different to the current content. I haven't seen any academic literature that supports the article in its current form. @Hydra Rain:: do you have any thoughts? Bondegezou (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

References

TNT?

There are only two academic sources cited in this article and they don't use the phrase "online self-harm". It's not clear that crazes that can be physically dangerous should be lumped together with self-cyberbullying. I think the article needs radical overhaul. I suggest either reducing to a stump and focusing on self-cyberbullying (based on Englander, 2012), or just making a redirect to Self harm. The stuff about dangerous ice challenges etc. (Williams et al., 2013) can be moved to other articles. Bondegezou (talk) 11:50, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I've reduced it to a stump, but what's left (two sentences) could easily be worked into the main article on self-harm. Redirect time? Primefac (talk) 13:24, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the sub-stub is necessarily an improvement. We're losing content and not sending readers to a useful page. What do you think about a disambiguation page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:40, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what you'd dab (unless it was to self-harm and attention seeking, which seem like odd choices). I'd say a redir to self-harm would be better overall (merging the existing content somewhere into the article). Primefac (talk) 02:03, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Those two, plus cyberbullying, if it ends up with a bit of information about self-cyber-bullying. The list would probably read something like "Attention seeking – some forms of attention seeking result in unintended injuries". It might also be possible to list some of the related pages, such as Salt and ice challenge or Internet meme. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay, yeah, with cyberbullying that could be a decent dab. Primefac (talk) 01:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I gave it a try; what do you two think of it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Aye, looks good. Primefac (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I think WhatamIdoing that that is a good attempt to tidy this up. However, I remain concerned that the article is inventing terminology. I cannot find the phrase "online self-harm" being used to mean any of these things in anything that approaches a reliable source. Self-harm involving the use of the Internet, attention seeking behaviors that result in self-injury and that are spread on the Internet, and self-cyberbullying are all real things that warrant Wikipedia content, but if RS don't call them "online self-harm", nor should we. Thus, I'm going to edit this article to just redirect to Self harm. Bondegezou (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2017 (UTC)