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Talk:One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer

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Other Similar Songs

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I was listening to 91.5 KKUP yesterday and the DJ played an old blues song that sounded remarkably similar to 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer'. It had similar lyrics but just referred to beer. I came to this article hoping to discover the connection. It would be great if someone who knows what I'm talking about could update the article. I tried KKUP's web page but that's a very low budget radio station. Jeff d kirby (talk) 17:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Toombs/Milburn vs Hooker/Thorogood versions

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50.49.211.106 has made several changes regarding the connection between the 1953 Toombs composition first recorded by Milburn song and subsequent recordings by Hooker and Thorogood. Multiple reliable sources state that the subsequent versions are "covers" or "adaptions" of the 1953 song or have been "rearranged", "redone", etc.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Biographer Murray writes that Hooker's version is "derived from Amos Milburn's 'One Scotch...'", but then adds it is Hooker's own (distinguished from Milburn's through a process he calls "Hookerization", that he applies to several older songs).[8]

The "cover" sources far outnumber Murray's "Hooker's own" and probably should be treated as a case of conflicting sources. WP:WEIGHT includes:

Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.[3] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.

However, the IP's has removed several properly cited quotes (including by Hooker himself) and replacd them with:

  • " Hooker borrowed the title of the Rudy Toombs composition, but of course the resulting song is utterly singular and separate."
  • "The John Lee Hooker song that Thorogood covered ('One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer') and the Rudy Toombs song, 'One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer' are two completely separate songs. There is sometimes confusion about this due to the erroneous assignment of the writing credit on certain releases of the Hooker song."

They have not added any sources to support these statements, but include in their edit summaries:

  • "... They’re essentially two separate songs."
  • "... many Wikipedia content creators assert that 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer' by John Lee Hooker and 'One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer' by Rudy Toombs are the same song. They’re not. Some releases of the Hooker song give the writing credit to Toombs, others give it to Hooker- the second way is correct. Hooker borrowed Toombs title but the two songs bear essentially no resemblance to one another. So I changed the Hooker ent..."
  • "The Rudy Toombs song and the John Lee Hooker song are different-separate songs. They shouldn’t be lumped together on the same page, under the same heading."
  • "I tried to eliminate the George Thorogood entry on this page altogether but couldn’t. The John Lee Hooker song that Thorogood covered ('One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer') and the Rudy Toombs song, 'One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer' are two completely separate songs. There is sometimes confusion about this due to the erroneous assignment of the writing credit on certain releases of the Hooker song."

Their comments seem to blame a misinterpretation of conflicting songwriting credits that appear on some records and CDs. It's not unusual for the same older blues songs to be credited to several different individuals, depending on who recorded them (and sometimes include those who were only managers or record label owners). Writer credits, especially when they appear on reissues of 60–70 year old blues songs, are usually not considered reliable and there is no indication that WP editors used them for this article. However, the IP does not appear to have researched the issue – they would have found multiple reliable sources that support the idea that Hooker's and Thorogood's versions are covers, adaptations, etc. of the Toombs/Milburn song.

The IP's edits have left some broken citations and incomplete sentences. I went ahead and fixed these and removed some unsupported assertions pending discussion.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

50.49.211.106 is hurting their position by continuing to insist that "the fact that it and the Rudy Toombs song are two completely separate songs, as anyone with two ears can hear". [from edit summary ] As explained above, there are multiple reliable sources that state that Hooker and later versions are covers, adaptations, etc. (see links at end of second sentence above). However, the IP has not supplied any reliable sources to support their claim. Some covers or adaptations of earlier songs may sound very different from the originals and may only use some lyrics, melody, structure, etc.; this does not make them "completely separate songs".
With the above linked edit, the IP removed direct quotes with proper citations to a reliable source. They also added "Early releases of Hooker’s song erroneously gave the songwriter’s credit to Rudy Toombs (writer of “One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer”) but this has been corrected on more recent releases (such as the 1995 Hooker CD, “One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer”)." However, they have not provided any sources for their claim. If one peruses different Hooker album and single songwriter credits for the same song recordings, one will find that the they sometimes include different authors for the same song. It is unlikely that professional music writers and historians who believe that Hooker's version is adapted or derived from the Toombs/Milburn song based their conclusions on changing record credits.
The bottom line is, one cannot ignore the connection between the songs by Toombs/Milburn and Hooker/Thorogood and assert that they are "completely separate/different" without reliable sources. Propose to reword the Hooker section to address Murray's point about making it his own (although derived from Milburn's) and to include refs about it being a cover.
—Ojorojo (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
50.48.62.105 and 2600:1017:B012:BBD3:1D35:4D05:B40A:C5FE removed the statement with inline citations to reliable sources (now restored), so I've added it here so they will be readily available:

In 1966, John Lee Hooker recorded the song as "One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer". It is often identified as an adaptation or cover of the Toombs/Milburn song.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] However, biographer Charles Shaar Murray, while acknowledging Hooker's song is "derived from Amos Milburn's [song]", believes Hooker made the song his own as he had done in adapting several other earlier popular tunes.[8] Murray calls the process "Hookerization",[8] in which Hooker made it "into a vehicle for himself [but] edited the verse down to its essentials, filled in the gaps with narrative and dialogue, and set the whole thing to a rocking cross between South Side shuffle and signature boogie".[9]

  1. ^ Batey 2003, p. 150: "one of his [Hooker's] best-known songs, 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer,' [is] an adaptation of a classic Amos Milburn drinking tune."
  2. ^ Keller 2018, p. 254: "John Lee Hooker rearranged the text a bit, recorded it [in] 1966, but it's still essentially Toombs' original."
  3. ^ Martin 2015, p. 289: "Rudy Toombs and Amos Milburn's 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer' [sic] ... was covered in the 1960s by John Lee Hooker, and then again by George Thorogood in the late 1970s."
  4. ^ Laberge 2006, p. 691: "[The Milburn release was] composed by Rudy Toombs. The song was later covered by John Lee Hooker ... and George Thorogood."
  5. ^ Fahey & Miller 2013, p. 481: "Among those [Milburn's alcohol songs] is the famous 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer,' which was redone by many artists, including John Lee Hooker".
  6. ^ Birnbaum 2013, p. 248: "[Milburn's] 'One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer' (later revived by John Lee Hooker as 'One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer')"
  7. ^ Simmons 2018, p. 193: "A number of other artists would later record it, including Champion Jack Dupree, John Lee Hooker, and George Thorogood, making it the best known song he'd [Milburn] ever record.
  8. ^ a b Murray 2002, p. 356.
  9. ^ Murray 2002, pp. 312–313.
—Ojorojo (talk) 17:04, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
50.48.62.105 has begun adding "misidentified" to the sentence "It is often identified as an adaptation or cover of the Toombs/Milburn song", but leaving the same inline citations.[9][10] The citation templates include the quoted passages that support the statement and the IP's addition clearly does not stick to the source. They still have not supplied any reliable sources that support their position, but instead include in their edit summaries their own personal opinion/original research regarding their "own ears" and the Library of Congress.
—Ojorojo (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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