Talk:One-hitter (smoking)/Archive 1

Archive 1

image

Could use a picture; it's kind of tough to glean what one looks like based on the current structural description. NickRinger (talk) 11:11, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done Beeblebrox (talk) 09:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

One-hitter

This article titled Dugout, following the practice of a private marketer, narrowly defines "one-hitter" as a short pipe which looks like a cigaret, thus concealing the fact that "one-hitter" is widely used to mean any single-toke utensil.

Unfortunately, with the word "dug-out" having escaped its original use as a patented commercial product and dragged the word "one-hitter" along with it, "one-hitter" loses some of its potential to be a usefully unambiguous casual term for a marijuana pipe small enough to deliver all smoke without sucking too hard making the herb burn hot, destroying THC and causing health risk.

My suggestion is, to anchor the latter meaning by grouping the word "one-hitter" with synonyms such as mini-toke, midwakh, kiseru etc. in an article under title One-hitter.Tokerdesigner (talk) 01:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Now that I agree with. One hitters are a broader subject than just the dugout brand, the article should probably be moved to One hitter (smoking). Beeblebrox (talk) 09:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Drawtube

The following information, deleted by one (1) editor under complaint of being uncited how-to information, arguably belongs in the article for the safety of users:

Slipping a long flexible tube, such as those provided with hookahs, tightly over the exit-end of a "one-hitter" prior to use makes it easier to suction-load prior to a hit, watch the lighting process at a comfortable distance from one's face, and give vapors extra time to travel, cooling down to a safer temperature before inhalation. Once some particles are ignited, the lighter-shield may be tapped against the crater-opening to help compact all material down closer together over the middle screen-windows, while user continues drawing slowly to control burning temperature.Tokerdesigner (talk) 15:28, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Afraid not. It isn't our task here to provide advice on pot smoking or other original research, but to record what has been reported in reliable sources. Frankly, I have never heard of anyone using such an elaborate process with a one-hitter, it seems like it would defeat the purpose of having a small, easily concealable pipe. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

(a) Carrying the drawtube in a separate part of your portfolio from the dugout/one-hitter and pushing it on only for use at nonconcealmental times is an option.

(b) The above health-related suggestion (drawtube) addresses a major part of what readers consulting the article are seeking, i.e. safer use, harm-reduction, etc., and if we grant the objection that it is "how-to-guide", then Wikipedia:NOTHOWTO expressly mentions wikiHow as a source those readers can be referred to. Links to illustrated wikiHow articles on sifting herb for low-temperature use, screening pipe-craters and making one-hitters etc. were deleted by one editor who complained that the articles were written by the same editor as linked them, and were Original Research. Whether the material is Original Research or not (more eligible citations being unavailable from publishers for political reasons) or written by any particular editor is irrelevant, instead the quality of service to your client, the consulting reader, is paramount. (Note especially the evidential value of diagrams in proving that such options really do exist.) If the wikiHow articles as they stand are deficient, Wikipedia editors can always sign in over there and upgrade them as needed.Tokerdesigner (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Please cut it out. I don't know how else to say it since we've already discussed at length that you are adding original research that is not supported by any reliable sources. This is not the "how to smoke weed properly" how-to website. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Re-read Wikipedia:NOTHOWTO

In order to avoid "OR" and "how-to" in the smoking-related articles, do you support inclusion of references to one or more of the following wikiHow articles (as expressly encouraged by Wikipedia:NOTHOWTO:

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Smoke-Pipes-From-Everyday-Objects

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-1/4%22-diam.-Screen-for-a-Single-Toke-Utensil

http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Wasteful-Hot-Burning-Wide-Mouth-Chillum-Into-a-Screened-Long-Stemmed-One-Hitter

http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Hot-Burning-Big-Bowl-Tobacco-Pipe-Into-a-25-Mg.-Serving-Size-One-Hitter

http://www.wikihow.com/Sift-Herbs-for-Smoking-Use

Secondly, how about title change to One-hitter: smoking?Tokerdesigner (talk) 22:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

No. You've been told this before. You wrote all those wikihows yourself. C'mon now...Mjpresson (talk) 23:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

As stated before, who wrote the above cited wikiHows is irrelevant. Whether they are original research is irrelevant. They stand or fall on the basis of servicibility, and responsiveness to the information-seekers who consulted the Wikipedia article they may be referenced in. If you can improve those articles or bring them up to WP standards, go over, sign in, and add some positive edits.Tokerdesigner (talk) 01:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, nobody has raised any objection to the page move, I'll do that now. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 Done I also cleaned up some redirects and the dab page One-hitter and re-edited the lead to reflect the move. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

"tobacco or other herb"

Such language has been repeatedly inserted into this article. Let's be realistic here folks, this isn't a site that sells these products, there is no need for us to pretend as they do that this is for anything besides smoking pot. We're not going to get arrested for telling the truth like Tommy Chong. The idea that tobacco-only users make up any significant part of the market base for one hitters is laughable. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Original research: where is your source for allegation "no need for us to pretend... that this is for anything besides smoking pot." How do you know the market of tobacco-users interested in getting "one-hitter-literate" is not expanding, as they find out about the health advantages of long-drawtube one-hitters?

My changes to that language lasted all of 20 minutes before the more "law friendly" language was added back in. Call it WP:OR if you must, but can anyone claim that they actually know someone crazy enough that they actually believe that these are to help you quit smoking or whatever? I've never in my life seen anyone use one of these for anything other than weed. If you want tobacco without the paper, there are all manner of perfectly normal pipes that you can smoke openly. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Granting your point, "normal" pipes are available, but you have overtooked a technical problem. The "pipe smokers" who load a gram or more of pipe tobacco into those big 3/4"-diameter pipes DON'T INHALE. (At least they claim they don't.) Instead they puff the harsh, flavorful smoke around through their mouth and nasal cavities and absorb nicotine through the mucus membrane into the brain, avoiding what almost all cigarette smokers do, namely, INHALE the whole bizness right into the bloodstream (resulting in 6 million deaths a year).

2008 fund raising slogan: "Help Wikimedia Change the World!" I think it would be a big deal if Wikipedia helped a billion poor puffsuckers, inhalant smokers who have tried to quit, try a different option, that of drastically downsizing their smoking dosage by means of a one-hitter with, say, a quarter-inch (6-mm.)-diameter crater, along with a measured slow (Pranayama Yoga inhalation procedure.

It seems some would prefer to just keep putting this language back in the article rather than engage in a rational discussion here. That's unfortunate. The only legitimate source this article has ever had defines a one hitter as drug paraphernalia. The sellers and distributors of one hitters define it as a smoking cessation aid because in many jurisdictions this is the only way they can legally sell them. I get that. I've been in such shops and visited such websites. I'm perfectly willing to pretend along with them that I'm buying a "tobacco water pipe" or a "liquid incense burner" or that I'm keenly interested in making my own whipped cream, but that doesn't mean the Wikipedia article has to play along as well. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I checked out that "legitimate" Drugs reference you restored. It rattles off boilerplate propaganda against various drugs and cannabis. It does once mention "one-hitters" but offers no description of them, nor does it take issue with the premise that a narrow (quarter-inch) diameter crater offers low burning temperature, smaller serving size and other harm reduction advantages to users of cannabis, tobacco and other herbs.

To define a one-hitter as "drug paraphernalia" turns the truth on its head. "Drug" means you take a BIG enough overdose of something (such as tobacco) to get a drastic impact. (Check out the pernicious article Bowl (smoking) to see 5000 bytes of original research and how-to hype about hot burning overdose in the cannabis context.) To the contrary, a gentle low-temperature single toke (semi-vaporizer technique) minimizes health hazards and permits users to access natural herbal ingredient safely.

As to headshop hucksters who may market some overpriced one-hitters as "smoking cessation" to hide cannabis issues, Wikipedia can avoid playing into their hands by linking to the above-cited wikiHow articles showing how to make a one-hitter cheaply out of hardware found in your garage.

Tokerdesigner (talk) 23:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This is an interesting turn of events. Are you now saying that in fact you are the ip who was re-inserting this language yesterday? Also, it's a bit odd of you to re-thread the discussion as though there was a back-and-forth between each of these posts when all of my previous posts were from yesterday and you responded to them today. I'm looking through your remarks and I don't see any refutation of the argument that one hitters are used almost exclusively for weed smoking, instead I see more of you trying to advance your odd personal crusade of trying to get people to smoke through one hitters with some tubing attachment thingy that defeats the entire purpose of having an easily concealable pot pipe that makes it look like your just lighting up a normal cigarette. There are many other websites that would be happy to allow you to advance your cause of converting people to smoking in this way, but Wikipedia is not one of them. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about any IP confusion yesterday, I just forgot to sign in on the second anonymous big city library computer.

Threading answers among your paragraphs is the same as old man User:Altenmann did with me in a discussion on Talk:Cannabis smoking and he has done 13,861 edits so I assumed it was normal.

The hinteragenda behind promoting one-hitters for all smoking is to save the aforementioned 6 million lives annually (even tobackgo pwffswckers deserve to live if we can save them, and why would you turn up your nose at a Nosewell Prize-- $1.5-mil. to Jimmy Wales to use helping us Pediageeks).

The flexible tube thing (just like on hookahs) is a health protection measure, to cool vapors before they reach your trachea. As for the main idea being to hide your cannabis use, I think history is helping us out with the sudden huge tide toward legalization, especially in the US which until recently did the dirty work for Big 2WackGo keeping cannabis illegal worldwide through its clout and military. "Concealable" headshop jewelry will be obsolete in a year or two, no reason to hide anything from anybody.

What's needed for this article is pictures of more kinds of one-hitters besides the Dugout thing, emphasizing inexpensive kinds anyone can make over fancy $junk$ that's for sale somewhere.Tokerdesigner (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I know this has been explained to you before, but I'll try again. Wikipedia records information that can be verified by reliable sources. It is not a soapbox for your personal crusade to save lives through one hitters. There are numerous other websites that welcome that sort of content, this just isn't one of them. I really don't know whether there is any merit to your theories about adding tubing to a one hitter, but it really doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about it, it's if you can verify the information. Personally, I haven't even used a one hitter in years, I started using glass exclusively so I'm not smoking aluminum and getting that in my system. In my mind that is as big or bigger of a health risk than the temperature of the smoke, but I haven't tried to add it to the article because I don't have any sources to base the content on. That's just how it is around here, our own observations just don't count. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

A man smoking a kiseru (1790). Traditionally used with a finely shredded Japanese tobacco product.

Midwakh (shown with and without filter). Traditionally used with dokha, an Iranian tobacco product.

New hope for article

User:Altenmann, formerly SemBubenny et al., has been blocked from editing by vote of an Angry Mob (April 11) on charges of SockPuppetry. He allegedly nominated numerous articles for deletion and used bogus accounts to cast pro-deletion "votes". He has agreed to take a one-year holiday from editing ("my wikiholism" as he put it) and then reapply. My thoughts go out to this tragic figure who, even if demented, was a devoted editor who just fell into the magic belief in deletion as cure for all ills.

However, his removal from the scene, however temporary, raises the issue of whether his March 7 edit of One-hitter (smoking)-- from 2260 bytes to 807-- fairly represents the importance of the subject of one-hitters, whilst "Bowls" (which User:Altenmann also visited, but didn't erase a mumblin' thing) is allowed to have 5000 bytes, all glamorizing large-bowl hot burning abuse paraphernalia sold by headshop hucksters. (User:Altenmann also reduced the Kief article from 4000 to 1000 bytes, removing references to how to sift out the kief etc.)

One-hitters have a long history which can be illustrated by adding the pictures shown here.

Additionally there should be an illustration of at least one (1) model with a long flexible drawtube (which is somehow o.k. to be shown in numerous pictures of hotbowl hookahs, why not here?Tokerdesigner (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Toker, your past attempts will not be reinserted here. You have established yourself as a notorious policy breaker and the integrity of these articles won't be allowed to deteriorate by your obsession with one-hitters. You also work completely outside of the Cannabis Project. I recommend not making a run of edits that will be reverted. WikiHow references are still not allwed and will be removed immediately. Mjpresson (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Note to Beeblebrox: agree with you about not using aluminum; a warning against that is in fact provided in the article

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Smoke-Pipes-From-Everyday-Objects

where Wikipedia readers can find it, if we do the right thing and include the wikiHow reference(s) (see above) in this article.

Yes, I favor guiding our cannabis-interested readers preferentially toward do-it-yourself info, rather than toward the high priced headshop health damage cult.Tokerdesigner (talk) 18:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Note to Mjpresson: you may want to revise the above posted ad hominem language, before the readers from Cannabis Project see it. I have signed in at the Cannabis Project and don't see how my work is any further "outside" it than yours. You should recuse yourself from editing cannabis-related articles because of your project using Wikipedia to promote a movie cult based on a character who wears a jacket evoking memories of a "classic cigarette package".Tokerdesigner (talk) 18:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

That's not happening, Toker. Keep it together this time. Get some fresh air and stop freaking out on the pages of Wikipedia. You are quite singular in this area and you're not a representative or an authority over more rational cannabis users. Mjpresson (talk) 20:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, it comes down to having a reliable source as opposed to your own opinion. Do you have a source that says that any tobacco pipe with a smaller than average bowl is considered a one-hitter? Don't bother to answer that since we all know you do not. These are the core concepts of Wikipedia, if you can't get down with that then you are in the wrong place. If you think we are both wrong, then by all means initiate some form of dispute resolution because we are clearly at an impasse here with you on one side determined to get your theories into this article and us on the other determined not to allow them in without sufficient sources. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Whether any pipe is, according to some source, "considered" a one-hitter, is irrelevant; "If it looks like a one-hitter-- it is a one-hitter!" And, to be functionally relevant, if users of sifted cannabis, shredded tobacco or any other herb can use it as a one-hitter it is a one-hitter.Tokerdesigner (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's what the article looks like today on google

One hitter (smoking) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A one hitter is a miniature pipe designed for a single inhalation, ... Dangerous drugs: an easy-to-use reference for parents and professionals. p. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_hitter_(smoking) - Cached - Similar

_____________________________________________________________

Searchers on google are being given the impression that this article contains the words "Dangerous drugs:..." etc. which are actually part of a cited reference. By the way, I looked up that reference, it's a 200-page anti-drug book about "Drugs" which mentions "one-hitter" once but contains not one word of description or detail about what makes a one-hitter different from just any "pipe", nor any other information that justifies sending readers of One-hitter (smoking) to that book.Tokerdesigner (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's quite insignificant, what "impression" you think Google gives searchers. Do you imply that article content should be altered or references removed to look better on Google? You can remove the reference if you feel it's not valid, then tag the article as unreferenced. That would hopefully encourage deletion noms, which I feel needs to be done. It's just a bad article. Mjpresson (talk) 02:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

"It's a bad article" means what?

(a) Insufficient information: add the alleged "how-to" which just happens to be required to define what a one-hitter is, plus photos showing its history. As User:Beeblebrox said (above), "One hitters are a broader subject than just the dugout brand."

(b) User:Mjpresson appears to reject the idea that one-hitters deserve to be covered on Wikipedia: some clarification of this would be helpful.Tokerdesigner (talk) 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Toker, stop changing the content and wording of statements that are cited. That is disruptive. Mjpresson (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD nom

I truly feel this article is a dictionary definition without notability or encyclopedic content. Who would look up one-hitter in an encyclopedia? Mjpresson (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Archive 1