Talk:Omega-level mutant/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Omega-level mutant. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Selene and Wolverine

Selene could be an Omega- Level mutant?And Wolverine? with respect to storm, I think that it is a Omega mutant, but that not yet has developed all her potential.

I disagree there is no possible way Wolverine is Omega-Class much of his ability is learned or technically augmented. Slene is an external but that does not connotate Omega level power.

Page messed up?

I just wanted to check something. My browser has the current revision showing the "omega level" table in the "external links" section. Yet when I check the page code everything looks in place for it to render correctly in the right place.

Is it just my browser? If it's not, could someone who knows more about this please fix it? And for that matter, could whoever keeps putting Storm in as an Omega please stop, we've been through that particular debate a few times and BP #26 doesn't confirm her as one. Tim 01:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone added a bracket and it's all pretty again. Ta! Tim 18:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Many see Phoenix as a cosmic entity that Omegas host, not become

The Dark Phoenix Saga involved an Omega mutant, Jean Grey hosting the Phoenix Force, which was refered to by the Shi'ar as "the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will, exist in all realities of the multiverse. During its time as a sentient entity, it was known to possess the psyche of mortals (particularly those who happen to be telepaths) and thus amplify their psychic abilities to a cosmic (and in some cases, nearly incalculable) scale. Its primary form is that of a gigantic firebird." In X-Men: Pheonix: End Song, the Shi'ar attempt to kill both Jean Grey and Quentin Quire as they are omega-level telepaths who might host the Phoenix Force. In Uncanny X-Men #467, the Shi'ar kill most of Jean Grey's relatives in order to prevent another host for the Phoenix, but Rachel Grey survives.

In Phoenix endsong towards the end when jean grey is ressurected once again.The phoenix was inhabiting emma frost's body and jean grey drives the phoenix out with the phoenix's power's so i believe that once they transcend to omega and once the phoenix uses an omega's body as a host they automatically become bound to the phoenix force.

Eternity

Also, the comics read specifically that humanity will evolve into the cosmic being called Eternity (X-Men: Forever #6). The Abstracts actually feared Phoenix and it's host, Jean Grey, when they encountered her on the astral plane. All of the so-called "requirements" on the main article page are orginal research to a very high degree. Very few of the statements of this article fall within what the comics actually depict and are chucked full of fanatic specualtion and original research. Marvel Comics has never come out with ANY Omega-level mutant definition or has defined any other classification scheme in their publications. I am simply shocked that this page has persisted so long on wikipedia, considering that there are no cited sources, no primary reference material, fan speculation and the use of original research throughout the article. Wikipedia is not a blog and should not be used as one. There are other sites, such as the Marvel Directory, which are wholly appropriate for this type of article listing. Either this article needs a healthy dose of neutral point of view and good writing, or it should be deleted. 63.249.119.38 05:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Franklin Richards to become a Celestial

"Franklin was confronted by Ashema the Celestial, who revealed the truth about the fate of the heroes: in a last, desperate attempt to reach his parents, Franklin created an entire pocket dimension, where the heroes were "reborn," and "rediscovered" their powers. Ashema told Franklin that he must choose a world to destroy, since both could not exist at the same time any longer. She essentially said that Franklin had the power of a Celestial himself. "

This seems to disprove that all Omega mutants become the Pheonix, an entity older than mankind with other roles in the Universe. If Franklin becomes a Celestial, then how do all Omega's become the phoenix? I think that theory may need retconning.

I dont think all Omega's become Phoenixes. All Omegas become universal forces like Celestials, Death, Eternity, etc. Jean becomes the Phoenix.

I think what people are trying to say is that to have access to the Phoenix force requires a mutant to be Omega-Level.

Dispute over criteria for Omega-Level Mutant

Perhaps the various parties can bring into the article actual quotations from Marvel publication's source material as to who is precisely "Omega Level" and this should be the criteria of which the article is to be based upon. Netkinetic 01:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Summers

Not all the Summers are Omega-Level. Cyclops and Havok are definitely not, Vulcan is not an Omega level mutant as he was useing Darwins powers. I think that the Grey-Summers are all potential Omega-Levels. Besides Jean and Rachel who are confirmed omegas, both X-Man and Cable are at least high alpha-level mutant. They're not omegas yet.

Nate Grey was supposed to be at the very least the second most powerful mutant ever, with the only maybe-exception being Franklin Richards (who's a confirmed Omega and potentially omnipotent). Cable is (genetically and in terms of potential power) identical to Nate Grey. Though they've not been explicitly referred to as such, the two of them are obviously Omegas.

And on an unrelated note, Amahl Farouk (the Shadow King) is also an obvious Omega, given that the definition is "a mutant with the potential to exist beyond the physical realm and consciously explore the metaphysical". Farouk already has done that. 71.236.33.191 09:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Farouk was cast out of his body, he did not evolve into a being of psychic energy. He's pretty much like Malice, but with telepathic powers.--Gonzalo84 20:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Still, if the definition of an Omega listed here is correct, a mutant who for whatever reason has no physical form must be one. Malice, IIRC, does have a physical form. It's just that it's a necklace, rather than a human body. 71.236.33.191 01:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Omega has nothing to do with bodies or whatnot. Also no one is considered Omega until confirmed in canon, and Nate Grey, Cable and the like have NOT been confirmed.

We have a canon definition of an Omega-level mutant. If a mutant overtly fits that definition, he's an Omega even if no other character has specifically called him one. BTW, I'm pretty sure I remember Onslaught calling Cable an Omega. Redxiv 21:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

No, we do not, because the definition is super-vague. "Yet what he called Omega (the last) he meant as regards to an 'ultimate threat,' while I simply prefer to think of such mutant abilities as unlimited potential."

Thats the "definition" verbatim from X-men Forever. Clearly a specific definition, eh?

Cable and X-Man were engineered by Sinister to be the ultimate mutant. I think that covers "unlimited potential".

Also, wouldn't Madelyne Pryor have been an Omega, since she was genetically identical to Jean Grey and thus would have the same "unlimited potential" as Jean? While she was never identified as being one, mutant powers are by their very nature genetic. If you clone an Omega, you therefore get another Omega. Redxiv 12:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

But Sinister is not God. We dont know if he succeeded in creating the "Ultimate Mutant", or if the "Ultimate Mutant" would have unlimited potential. its certainly highly unlikely that he created the Ultimate Mutant given that Franklin Richards and Jean Grey have more impressive feats in the comics. And Franklins just a kid, nowhere near his full potential. Thats just not enough evidence to declare them Omega mutants. Really really powerful, yea.

As for Maddy Pryor, thats saying a clone of a character has the same powers as the character. Thats not always the case. Joseph, for example, had more raw power than Magneto but less skill. Or Stryfe, who was less powerful than Cable without the T-O virus. Or X-23, who is a clone of Wolverine but has bone claws in her feet too. So right now, we dont know if cloning would duplicate the powers and also their "Omega-ness" exactly.

Joseph having more raw power than Magneto but less skill is a difference in development, not a difference in their powers. Also, X-23's difference in claws is due to her sex, which is her one genetic difference from Logan. Noneofyourbusiness 20:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we please stop putting our personal views about who should or should not be Omega in this article. Why does a power level classification ALWAYS attract this kind of nonsense. Just go by what the books have said. "It is highly unlikely that these power classifications are accurate" is pure POV and also wrong, because Omega is above all a classification of unlimited potential, not current power levels. Storm would slaughter Elixir in a fight right now but Elixir is still an Omega and Storm is not until future notice.

That's because Elixir's full potential has not been reached yet. Omega-Level does not automatically mean you're all powerful. It means you have the ABILITY to reach omnipotence. Jean Grey wasn't uber-powerful in the beginning. Yes Storm and probably a whole bunch of characters can defeat Elixir as of the moment, but in terms of raw power Elixir possesses more.

hm, thats exactly what I said.

Elixir

Please - you've got one single comment, never repeated, for Elixer and are willing to go into the trenches for him. A decent standard would be to wait for any confirmation, a second character, or the same character with a different writer, to make sure it isn't ignored or retconned like so many things. But no, you like Elixer. His "omegadom" hasn't surfaced like anyone elses, but who cares, a writer got a comment in and without a second confirmation anywhere, it's plenty good enough for you. He's down like Jean Grey. It's over-eager. It's impatient.

You can have your little-better-than-speculation on there if it gives you so much joy. But then the site is "disputed".

Sorry, Elixir's been mentioned twice. New Mutants #12 and New X-men Academy X #1. And I dont even like the character and thought it was retarded to make him Omega. But he is, so whatever.

He was also confirmed in the 198 Files and on Marvel's website

Mr Immortal

As far as I know, an omega-level mutant is a mutant that has evolved to the final step of mutation right before the phoenix stage, so why isn't Mr. Immortal an Omega-level mutant? After all, Deathurge said that "he is a mutant, but not homo superior, the traditional Marvel mutant who has simply taken the next step in evolution, but rather a man who has evolved past death itself, and is therefore Homo Supreme", and "he will be around till the end of the universe itself, to be revealed at the end it's final secret". If that is not the definition of an omega-level mutant, I don't know what is! I mean, this guy is like Galactus, living to the end of the universe, AND his mutaion is so advanced, he evolved BEYOND death itself! Also, he has been described as "the ultimate omega in human evolution".

He hasn't been confirmed by Marvel. All the other ones here have already been confirmed by Marvel. And there is no real definition of what makes and Omega-Level mutant. It's all based on assumption.

And MAGNETO IS NOT AN OMEGA. How many times do people have to keep labeling him as omega?

Actually, as a homo supreme, he technically ranks ABOVE and omega. Omega's are all still homo superiors. So Mr. Immortal is actually a step above the rest. He cannot die, and it has been confirmed that he will be THE ONLY SURVIVOR at the end of the universe. Galactus? Dead. Beyonder? Dead. GLA MISSASMBLED states "There are beings that stride the cosmos, with their claims of immortality, of godhood, but even they can be killed. But not you craig hollis"

Basically, Mr. Immortal is not an omega level mutant. He's evolved far beyond that classification.

There is no level beyond Omega, as stated several times when it was brought up about what has been said about Vulcan, so Mr. Immortal is an Omega. And the article by IGN got their list of Omega's straight from Marvel, so yes, they confirmed him.

-- Does it actually say anywhere that IGN got their list straight from Marvel? --

Question

Umm shouldn't Vulcan be categorised differently? He has been confirmed as an Omega PLUS Mutant. It's mentioned at least 3 times throughout the series.

1.) DG#1 Emma: "This ones off the Charts, at least Omega level...but it's moving too fast." 2.) DG#1 Wolverine: "Let's see Omega Plus Level Mutant, completely weirda$$ crash site and no way it's Charlie" 3.) DG#4 Rachel: "He didn't use to be this powerful. Somehting happened to bump him up way past Omega Level. But he's not ready yet.

Wolverine uses a nice name to describe above Omega. He calls it Omega PLUS.

I think he was indirectly refering to Elixir when he said that. Wallflower was close to him, so by taking her out it'll be easier to take out Elixir. BTW What are these various sources mentioned next to Cable and X-Man in this article?? Surely there has to be proof. I don't think anyone in any comic has blatantly stated that X-Man/Cable and Stryfe are Omega Level. Until we have a valid cannon source where they are clearly stated to be Omega then they shouldn't be included. 198 confirmed Franklin and Mister M as Omegas, Cable wasn't.

Again that Moira comment is still not enough Proof. Jean is one with the Phoenix and Exodus schooled her, so did Xavier that doesn't mean they are Omega Mutants. I agree that Rachel is an Omega Mutant.

Requirement to be considered Omega

It seems that a requirement for an Omega is to be able to control matter on a sub-molecular scale. That's the main reason why Iceman is listed as an Omega. He can control water in all of its states (i.e., on the molecular level) and he was sometimes portrayed as being able to travel via the water molecules.

As far as Magneto is concerned, he controls magnetism - so does that mean he can control things on a molecular scale? Perhaps not. He controls metal via his magnetism, but I don't think he can shape metal on a molecular level. If he could, for instance, change steel into gold (which he may be able to, I don't know for sure), he would be, in my opinion, considered an Omega level mutant. Professor X is a very powerful telepath, so is Emma. But they cannot control matter on a molecular scale, unlike Jene, who can, thanks to her telekenetic powers.

Minister Sinister also qualifies since he can basically be destroyed down to his molecular make up and still survive and, due to his intellect, has de facto control of many elements down to their molecular states.

Apocalypse, although in the same league as Professor X based on power, probably, cannot control things on molecular level without the help of others. He does have a malleable body, but I do not know if he can control it down to molecular level. If he can, than yes, he would probably be an Omega level.

Gambit would probably also be an Omega level mutant at his limit as the Sun, because, as Sun, Gambit could control matter just by thinking about it, i.e., he can make all types of matter explode just by thinking it. Normally, however, after being lobotomized by Sinister, he doesn't have that power. (18:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC))

(Different user): I'll have to disagree. Magneto can control matter on a molecular scale. If your physics is really that bad, go check up what magnetism (one of THE 4 fundamental forces) can do. Any way, manipulating molecules does not mean the ability to change iron into gold. I think that magneto is an omega-level mutant, just that he's not confirmed by Marvel yet. Btw, 1 of the common requirements of being an omega is to exist beyond the physical realm. Magneto can exist as a being of pure electromagnetic energy.

(Response): Whoever posted the response to the original post is in violation of Wikipedia:Civility rules. While your disagreements are valid, statements such as "if your physics is really that bad" are offensive and inappropriate. Furthermore, it is quite clear that the original poster was not making any definitive claims about Magneto, evident in the fact that he/she used a qualifying "I think" statements numerous times and stated once "I don't know for sure." Also, while shooting down one statement, it is beneficial to provide an explanation. The response states: "manipulating molecules does not mean the ability to change iron into gold," while not explaining exactly what this means. Molecule is an aggregate of at least two atoms and atoms of a particular element is just a combination of a certain number of protons, electrons, and neutrons. An addition of certain number of protons, electrons, or neutrons, can, in theory, create a new element. Scientists are experimenting with this currently (i.e., making uranium into plutonium, etc.). Consequently, if Magneto had true control of transition metals atoms via his magnetism, he could in theory add or subtracts the components of these atoms to form new elements. Both gold and iron are metals, so, in theory, it could be ventured that if Magneto had true control, as the response stipulates, he could change the properties of one element (composed of atoms, which form molecules) to form another, i.e., iron into gold. Also, the most basic definition of magnetism, i.e., "Magnetism is a force that acts at a distance and is caused by a magnetic field. This force strongly attracts ferromagnetic materials such as iron, nickel and cobalt. In magnets, the magnetic force strongly attracts an opposite pole of another magnet and repels a like pole" does not imply that magnetism lends itself to Magneto being able to control metals on a molecular scale. Thus the question of whether Magneto can manipulate metals on a molecular scale. As far as Magneto being an Omega-level mutant, your arguments are quite valid, i.e., "Magneto can exist as a being of pure electromagnetic energy". The choice to express these arguments in a condescending manner was perhaps ill-advised.

(Thoughts from one who knows physics) While the previous two posts have made several valid points regarding the scope and degree of electromagnetism and Magneto's power (with differing degrees of civility) it is important to point out an inherent incompleteness in those same points. First, the ‘different user' is wholly correct in their assertion of electromagnetic force as being one of the 4 fundamental forces of nature and thus it's potential is infinite to the point of being able to directly wrap time-space. When considering the electromagnetic force it is also important to realize that the scope of this force is not limited to simple magnetism, but also to electromagnetic waves (light, radio waves, X-Rays, etc.) as well as all the forces involved in interactions between atoms, which can be traced to the electromagnetic force acting on the electrically charged protons and electrons inside the atoms. To address the previous response post, you are correct in your description of sub-atomic particles and the theoretical transmutation of elements by atomic manipulation. However, you are incorrect in stating that only certain materials are affected by magnetic fields. As was shown in the April 1997 issue of Physics World, a publication of the Institute of Physics in the UK, a group of scientists, led by Andrey Geim of the University of Nijmegen in the Netherlands successfully proved diamagnetic levitation in non-ferrous materials when they levitated a frog in a powerful magnetic field. This experiment was later repeated and validated by scientists at Brown, MIT, and the University of Florida. Why the physics lecture? Quite simply it is this: Yes, electromagnetism can do all these things, but Magneto has yet to demonstrate the ability to output the raw energy requirements or control necessary to achieve such feats. Despite the unlimited potential theoretically granted by his type of power (a fact that, IMHO should make it easier for him than most), he is blatantly not an Omega-class since he lacks either the raw power or control needed to exploit its capabilities.

(Responce: From different user) Your statements about the power level of Magneto and his ability to generate the power required to really show the extent of his ability is correct. But, it is unknown if this power is generated from his own strength or if he gets the power from magnetic fields around him. Many instances have appeared in which he is entrapped in a plastic room, therefore making him powerless; as well he has been able to manipulate objects from vast distances such as him covering the globe with a self-generated electromagnetic pulse that caused widespread devastation. As for controlling the elements in the molecular level; Magneto has displayed this a couple of times. He is capable of manipulating the blood flow to one's brain to induce aneurysms or unconsciousness. This requires control of individual atomic molecules in the blood. As well, he can control ferrous particles in the atmosphere (even the very air). The extent if his power is unknown. He has demonstrated abilities to control other electromagnetic forms of energies; bending light, and controlling x-ray radiation. Therefore he is an Omega Level Mutant.

There is no set requirements to be Omega. It's all whether Marvel says you're in or out. and Magneto has REPEATEDLY been confirmed as an ALPHA. Not OMEGA.

(Response: From --Infobro 00:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)) If in fact there is a dispute it centers around the ability to control matter at the molecular level and to "exist beyond the phsical realm" and/or other factors and not inclusion by Marvel of a character as Omega, there is much room for debate concerning the various mutant characters in the Marvel Universe as to that classification, otherwise. One such character, that should be included in such a definition is Molecule Man. Although his abilities were manifest due to the mutagenic affect of a particle beam, I believe he would still be classified as a mutant.

However, the definition appears to be fundamentally flawed as it speaks to "control at the molecular level" whereas the abilities wielded by Molecule Man are realized at the subatomic level. He can indeed manipulate matter to transform straw into gold, i.e., like Rumpelstiltskin; for "that" matter, or cause it's manifestation from nearby Elementary Particles. That ability would be a more precise attribute, in any event. Magneto appeared to wield such power, almost, during the Secret Wars, where at his base, he managed to accrete ambient metals into a comb for the Wasp. This would tend to exclude Magneto from the Omega classification because his ability only extends to inorganic compounds though that may not be considered exclusionary.

As with Phoenix, Molecule Man can manipulate all matter and energy to the subatomic level and change matter to energy and vice versa. Whether his powers extend to the level of Phoenix, may be a matter of debate. The Molecule Man has demonstrated a level of control and power that allows the creation of wormholes, faster than light and extra-dimensional travel, manifestation of organic life and transference to it of consciousness by an unknown means. Also, as referenced by a powers description for Mister M. as Owen Reece who is classified as Omega-level by X-Men: The 198, that's pretty convincing power for classification as Omega-level.

(Different User) To continue the talk about magneto, i am not sure, but if his powers of magnetic manipulation was that perfect, and he could control protons and electrons, couldn't he just physically disassemble anything at the atomic level? This is obviously not true because Magneto can be trapped in a room of plastic. Since he doesn't have that level of control, he isn't an omega.

(Yet another "Different User") Just a question i'd hope someone would answer me. Apocalypse has shown throughout comics as being able to manipulate his atomic mass into "metal". If Apocalypse can do something such as that, it would mean that he can control his own matter on a "sub atomic level" (even more complex than a sub molecular level). Apocalypse has been labelled as an Alpha level, but the ameture logic i have put together hopefully says otherwise.

SEE "MAGNETO" DISCUSSION BELOW

- if apocalypse can transform his own flesh into steel, technically he is an omega level mutant. Simply because changing flesh (carbon, glucose, protein etc....) into metal/steel is changing matter on a subatomic level. So as far as i'm concerned apocalypse is an omega level mutant by technicality, similar to iceman

Actually, controlling or transmuting matter is not the definition of Omega mutant, what makes them one is the ability to transcend the limitations of physical existence. Iceman seems to be listed because his physical body is not vital to his survival, but we can't be sure yet because his own lack of ambition has prevented him from learning or pushing the limits of his powers. As for the rest, well, the term Omega Mutant is a recent invention, and right now it's the flavor-of-the week that all the writers want to play with (sort of like secondary mutations were a couple of years ago), so let's just wait till the fad burns out, and then try to clear up who's what. -- Noclevername 06:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Darwin Boy

[New Question(s): posted 05/26/06]

Shouldn't Darwin boy or whatever his name is from "X-men: Deadly Genesis" be considered an Omega Level Mutant? He was able to survive as pure energy based solely on his mutant ability to adapt to any situation for the sake of insuring his survival. Also, what about Proteus? He was able to control reality to a certain extent too, (a la Franklin Richards). Exodus, maybe? I don't know if he's pertinent to this topic, but wasn't his level of power on at least a "Homo Supreme" level? He stopped the Avengers, and the X-men, all at the same time, by himself. Well, based on the criteria mentioned in the article, maybe he isn't; I was wondering about him though. Also, what about Cassandra Nova? She's at least as powerful as Quintin Quire was. Also, what about Legion, Xavier's son? I'm sorry if I've asked too many questions, I'm just trying to mention some names that maybe belong in the articl

(another person) Darwin could possible be an omega-level mutant as mets two of three the regarded abilitys regarded to be omega (unlimited potential, and existing as energy, the other is molecular manpulation). Darwin can adapt to anything giving him unlimited potential. Proteus doesn't have the raw power to alter reality on a massive scale, Exodus got thrashed by Nate Grey an alpha-level mutant, and Cassandra Nova and Legion are weaker in there individual powers than an omega-class but are extremely powerful when there are combined so they may low class omegas or high class alphas.

Note: Oh God, please learn to distinguish between there, their and they're.

Proteus

Doesn't he have similar powers to Franklin Richards? Would he qualify as an Omega? Onikage725 13:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Characters are only Omega when a comic officially states they're Omega. Mags, Nate have not. Not sure about the other guy, he's Homo Supreme and IGN called him Omega so he could be.

It seems to me that since there isn't a group within the comics that just goes around officially ranking Omegas that the criteria should be a little lighter. I mean, if it's a classification of power and potential, then shouldn't that take precedence over "what some character in one of the comics has or hasn't stated?"

Like in my above comparison, he has the same abilities as a mutant on this list. yet he wouldn't be up for consideration because another character hasn't said as much? He was dead for some time, and his recent exploits have been in alternate dimensions, so one could argue that he's been flying under the radar. Why would his relative obscurity hamper the classification of his power? Onikage725 17:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

-Simply because it hasn't been stated officially, Wanda Maximoff pulled off a far greater feat then Proteus or Legion and she hasn't been labeled an Omega Level Mutant. (Proteus only warps tiny areas when compared to Wanda). Sunfire has the potential to do everything Iceman is capable of, only with fire, he even transcended to fire energy in AOA, Berzerker could possibly do the same as could Magma yet they haven't been stated being Omega Mutants. Magneto controls two of the fundamental forces in the Universes yet not once has he been confirmed an Omega. Exodus as well has demonstrated far greater potential then most mutants yet he hasn't been called an Omega mutant. The same could be said about New Sun Gambit. A mutant is only Omega when it is officially announced by Marvel, otherwise it's just speculation. This is suppose to be a factual article not a speculative article, we don't write the comics therefore we cannot judge who is and who isn't Omega. You'll just have to wait for Marvel to clarify the actual meaning of Omega and officially state who is and who isn't in the Omega Club. BTW Emma Frost, Nimrod, Xavier and O.N.E usually go around ranking who is and who isn't Omega. You'll just have to wait for one of them. Oh and this isn't true yet, but I'm banking on Jamie Braddock being the next confirmed Omega Mutant. As he could possibly be the vessel for the First Fallen in Uncanny #474.(The Phoenix counterpart) As for Darwin being an Omega, you may be on to something. But it wasn't very clear. Whatever happened to them it pushed Gabriel to Omega Plus level. At the end of DG#6 one could say Xavier indirectly implied both Darwin an Gabriel are still Omega PLUS mutants. I'm not sure about that though. Exact Quote by Xavier from DG#6:

"Well reactive evolution was Darwins mutant power, after all who's to say what he could survive? And he was exposed to the exact same mutant energy that pushed Gabriel past Omega... I suppose that could be responsible for his rebirth."

So I'm not really sure, it's implied that Darwin is Omega PLUS. Oh and about the Ms Nova thing, she isn't technically a mutant so I don't believe she can be Omega. Plus it hasn't been stated that she is Omega or isn't-

Hm, well all I'm really getting at is this- would a "potential" list be appropriate? I realize there would be a risk for people to be like "OMG Wolverine is teh coolest!" but if noone was allowed to be on it without careful discussion. Something like "the following mutants have displayed potential similar to others on the list" or "the following mutants seem to meet the criteria for Omega-level classification but as of yet haven't been officially mentioned." Something to that effect. What do you think?

Also on a sidenote, I noticed watching the new film that they rank classes by numbers (with Class 5 apparently being Omega, and Alphas presumably in the 3 and 4 range). Do they ever use numbers in the comics? Onikage725 19:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

-Not that I know of, I suppose a new list of speculated Omegas could be possible, just as long as the official list isn't edited. But if we start getting Wolverine may be an Omega mutant comments then we should just delete the whole specualtive list. You should add a seperate list if you want to.

-whats up with this omega plus i thought that omega was the final stage of evolution and then phoenix but now omega plus what's next mutants that are gonna be stronger than the phoenix, omega plus plus plus.there has to be an end to evoulution right?

·==Speculation list== Ok, I've added a list for speculated omegas. Please don't put classified mutants like wolverine (confirmed alpha)in the list just because they're cool. Only unclassified mutants like Magneto are allowed.

Just to help out a bit, here is a list of classified mutants. Do not attempt to put them on the potential omega list.

Confirmed alphas: cyclops, beast, angel, apocalypse, all the horsemen (past , present and future) of apocalypse

beta:???

gamma:???

delta-epsilon: Jean Grey's nephew

These could be potential Omegas Scarlet Witch, Jamie Braddock, Proteus, Exodus, Stryfe

[Sunfire, Berzerker, Polaris, Dazzler, Magma, Storm] Not too sure about them, Sunfire maybe however the rest seem more like Alphas to me.

AS far as Storm goes Magneto and Professor Xavier have both explicitly stated to her at different times that she is an omega level mutant, and capable of very great things. I think the fact that she can harness electromagnetic fields, solar winds, and the power of the very earth itself and as evidenced in an issue where the mutants has been aged some years trascend into a being of pure energy is enough for her to be classified as an omega level mutant.

Storm has NEVER EVER been said to be Omega Level. NEVER. That is pure speculation.

In the Classic Uncanny X-Men, Storm featured in a storyline called Rogue Storm where she manipulated weather on a global scale an transcended into a pure-energy being. In an Alternate future, she is also seen as an Elemental being. That surely fits the description of an Omega.

If it's in-continuity, we'll need an issue number to reference. If it's a possible future or an alternate universe, we probably can't count it.--Rosicrucian 22:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's UNcanny X-men: #147 in which she becomes an elemental being and also affects global weather.

More Alphas: Emma Frost, Jubilee, Psylocke, Xavier, Quicksilver, Rogue

I think Wolverine and Beast are Betas. And Mr Sinister like Nova and Cain aren't exactly a mutants... not too sure about him. Selene though the oldest mutant should be an Alpha.

i under stand you've put a lot of thought in the speculative list, but we don't post fan speculation of theories. so i'm pretty sure you're list is going to be erased... seeing as how you named it "speculation list." Exvicious 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think in order to be sure about which mutants are which level, we should strive to identify and define the qualities of each levels that are known. Just makes sense, before we can furnish the house we have to build it.

this is a bad idea... you can't just say "the majority believes x." I'm pretty sure that's actually explicitly stated in the wiki guidelines, I'm just too lazy to find it. Oreo man 20:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, this doesn't seem to be working...someone just added Psylocke, TK that shatters mountains isn't enough.

The table just states "speculation" as the justification on most of these "potential" omegas. All this does is artificially inflate the article with no real cite.--Rosicrucian 23:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If this list is going to continue, then it would probably be useful to place it in a table like the Official list, and instead of a reference to an article, include a brief summary of why they should be considered it. For example, Sunfire could be speculated because of the immense power he houses, as well as the fact he seems to be (as far as I'm aware) currently equal in strength to Iceman, who is a known Omega. What do other people think? Jacobshaven3 21:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

just on a possibly uneducated sidenote, can a classified mutant change ranks? can an alpha evolve to an omega? because if all horsemen are alphas and gambit was a horseman yet from speculation he is potentially an omega (at least in the future). the problem is, from what i can tell, marvel hasn't specifically told fans what classifies an omega.

"Factual accuracy"?

How can there be factual accuracy about an entirely made-up subject?

There is certainly factual evidence about fictional subjects, much like writing a book report. They are aiming to support the omega-level theory with in-text evidence. Simple enough, but why try to crush comic fans?

The factual accuracy tag is there because this is an article which is prone to proliferation of fancruft and speculation without any real basis in Marvel canon.--Rosicrucian 20:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

On another note who the Heck is Dragn? And in X-Men Legends they never stated that Magma was Omega just that they hadn't seen energy levels likes these since the Phoenix. Not sure about the New Mutants comic.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.249.45 (talk • contribs) 10:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC).

That one was vandalism. He was going around and editing a fan character into a bunch of Marvel articles. I've removed it.--Rosicrucian 21:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I think the only obvious way to make this stuff at all accurate is to cite references. Since everyone is up in arms about not implementing speculation - rightly so - we need direct references to where various characters are cited as whatever-level mutants. Like the discussion above, where someone claimed Storm has been said to be Omega-level, while someone responded that that was not true. If the former supplied a couple of issues we could all look at to confirm this, well, the case would be settled. Zooey stoke 03:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Omega?

I'm bored so I'm going to make a list of all mutants (that I can think of) that have the potential to be Omega-level mutants. Feel free to contribute.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Opus Dei (talk • contribs) 04:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

This is just a revival of the deleted speculation list. It does not belong in this article.--Rosicrucian 13:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Nate Grey

Nate Grey is an Omega-level mutant. His powers are limitless, he can bend the dimensional barriers of reality with his thoughts, control matter on a molecular level, manipulate all forms of energy (light, magnetism, electricty, etc.) even resurrect the dead (see Madelyne Pryor). In the Cable comic series, Moira McTaggart shows Cable a graph comparing Nate's powers to the Dark Phoenix's, and the graph's were identical. Moira even says that his powers now were already rivaling Dark Phoenix's at the height of her powers. When Nate was trying to locate Holocaust from space, he even manifested a Phoenix Force-like firebird effect. He was even able to transcend the physical world and become a being of pure thought in the last issue of X-Man. So if he has all of the power requirements to be an Omega, has powers that match a known Omega (Jean Grey), why can't we call him an Omega? NeoCoronis 14:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is what I'm talking about, and why I proposed a speculation list so long as the mutant isn't pre-classified and there is strong evidence (like in the case of Nate). There are characters, plenty of characters, who have powers that rival or exceed ones on this list, and who's potential seems to be constantly growing or at least growing in large jumps to immense effect. But simply because Professor X or the like hasn't gazed upon their exploits and said "whoa, Omega," then they are to be disregarded? Two terms people. 1- Common Sense. 2- Interpretation. "Omega-level mutant...indicate(s) mutants with the ability (or potential) to exist beyond the physical realm and consciously explore the mystical. Immortality is also a possibility, but not a requirement. Being able to control matter on the sub-molecular scale also seems to be a requirement." There are mutants who meet 2 or 3 of those requirements, and sometimes go beyond even that. What I don't see under requirement is that someone else has to watch them in action and say "I guess he's Omega-class." I understand keeping off the confirmed list until...well...confirmed. but that doesn't mean there aren't notable mutants who meet the criteria who for whatever reason or another haven't had a label slapped on them. Noone's ever said characters like Proteus or Nate Grey are Alpha's either, but I certainly don't see anyone trying to classify them as Betas. I'm just saying by this logic, they don't have a class if another character doesn't tell us what it is...yet we've been given plenty of criteria and examples of each class. maybe the writers don't always lead us by the hand. Interpretation is a strong part of the literary process, especially when you're talking about something as huge as the X-universe with all it's many, many, many arcs and books and writers. Onikage725 21:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Trouble is, every time someone restarts the speculation list, it gets clogged with a bunch of fan-favorites with little to no evidence of why they're omegas. We can't have the speculation list because it allows too much wiggle room and quickly gets out of hand.--Rosicrucian 21:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I should also add, there is a reason Nate Grey will probably never be declared an Omega. That reason is the fact that he died before the Marvel editors had codified what an Omega is, and is a character that's unlikely to be brought back.--Rosicrucian 22:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I see your point on nate, but we also have Cable who always had the same potential. Potentials a big part of the classification too, right? Like a character like Exodus is badass, but also seems to have topped off (essentially being an uber-powered Alpha). I know Cables been through changes in his powers lately, so I dunno where he stands...just tossing something out there. But yea, like I said when I suggested, I do recognize that problem. But I think there could be a rule implemented by those of us who frequent this article that b4 being added a case should be made in discussion. If the character is confirmed Alpha (or lesser), or doen't make the grade, they can't go on. Like..."Proteus because he has vast reality warping powers and is a being of pure energy" would be cause for consideration, but "Colossus cuz he is so cool and rilly strong" obviously would not be. Onikage725 01:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not, for a Speculation list, include as a requirement that with each character a source must be given as an example of why they should have speculated Omega Status (for instance a source to that conversation between Moira and Cable for Nate). This way, people can't just add their favourite, without a realistic reason. What do you guys thinks? Jacobshaven3 00:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there has to be a line drawn in what's considered speculation and, in Nate's case', what is already widely known/considered. All that's missing is an 'official' line, but it's been implied (enough in my books) Boomtish 5:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nate's not Omega for the same reason Proteus isn't: Death. --Kozmik_Pariah 9 June 06

There are alternate universes and versions of characters. Nate's dead, Nathan's not. And since the classification seems to depend more on potential than on current power level, that seems like something to consider. Also, Proteus has been active in other dimensions. Proteus seems to stop when he feels like it (aside from Ultimate). Onikage725 16:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section for former Omegas, as they seem to be some of the few we can verify.--Rosicrucian 14:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Where was in the comics was the definition of Omega given? Nightscream 18:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the rule about only including those characters who have been directly stated to be omega-level in canon, however, it is also possible to make a logical deduction based on canonical evidence. For example, Phoenix is confirmed as an omega-level and X-Man has been stated to be of AT LEAST equal power, therefore it logically follows that he is also an omega-level. Is this allowed, since we DO, technically have canonical evidence? I mean, the only way that he could be less than omega is if one of the statements in canon was wrong!--81.158.94.7 17:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)P.D.H

Hello, on the wiki of MarvelDatabase, they say that Nate Grey was an Omega-level mutant http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/X-Man#Powers

that'sa wiki, and it's not official nor verifiable. If someone can show me a comic where he's positively identified as an omega I'll happily agree though. Tim 18:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Having read all of his monthly series + annuals, Nate Grey was never stated to be an Omega-level mutant. And yes, X-Man is comparable to the Dark Phoenix in power. However, note that the Dark Phoenix was but a simulcrum of the real Jean, and an avatar of the Phoenix Force. Until he's been outright confirmed on-panel to be an Omega-level mutant, he's not. --CBG

Accepting Elixer

I was rather hostile to Elixer above, since it seemed to be based on one comment. Now I've heard the creator's intended him to manipulate all living matter and that new writers seem to be following that up. That still seems marginally omega (he'd be useless on a lifeless planet, whereas most other omega's could still eat, dissolve or destroy it), but I'll concede his omegadom.

71.228.5.74 16:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Come on! Wikipedia is not a place for u to rant if u accept this or that! Who F*cking cares if u don't accept Elixir as an Omega? He is, so deal with it.

--80.229.151.116 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The Collective

Collective (comics)? Omega?D1Puck1T 02:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a mutant in and of itself, and having multiple Alpha or Beta level powers doesn't make an Omega, no matter how many you have.

If the Collective's host manifested an Omega-level power, perhaps.--Rosicrucian 04:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The collective's powers were described by Emma frost as " at least omega level" in the new avengers comic.

If someone used the terms "at least Omega Level," that indicates a writer that doesn't quite get what an Omega Level mutant does.

Puh-leese. Omega-level mutants may have "infinite potential", but so many beings have already been shown to transcend infinity (Living Tribunal, Eternity...).So as far as beyond Omega-level is concerned, it is just one of those entities.

Still, the fact remains that the Collective is not a mutant in and of itself. It is no more an Omega Level mutant than the Phoenix Force is.--Rosicrucian 21:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Could be Omega-Level

Shouldn't there be a section saying mutants who possibly could be Omega-level?

There was one but people kept adding people they wanted to be Omega, not one's that could be.Jacobshaven3 09:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Vulcan

He probably doesn't belong on the list, as he only manifested Omega power levels due to Darwin, who was later seperated from him.--Rosicrucian 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No he maifested his Omega Plus Potential from Darwin, it is still unclear whether he was an Omega mutant before that. Uncanny will deal with this.

i removed Vulcan as an omega level mutant. Because all the powers he manifested in Deadly Gen, where not his own. Magneto is not in the list of Omega level mutants, Because he has allways used external sources of power to boost his own. The same arguement applies to Vulcan. He was absorbing the energy of Darwin to survive. Thus he is not an omega level mutant and must be removed from the list. Also Emma frosts comments where speculative and where not based on any type of scientific evidence. --Dr noire 17:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A few points to clarify...there are third incidents in the DG series where Vulcan is mention Omega PLUS

The first by Emma using cerebro nothing speculative about that. The second by Rachel comparing the energy levels through her telepathy to other Omegas The third by Wolverine which means nothing

The fact is the writer of the comic wanted us fans to acknowledge the fact that Vulcan is an Omega Plus mutant, after Darwin is seperated from him the Professor implies that Vulcan may not be Omega PLUS anymore there is nothing about Omega. Your theory is only speculative as Darwin has never been clearly labelled Omega only Gabriel has. And in the new Uncanny Xavier continues to express his awe at Gabriels power.

BTW The reason why Magneto was never listed as an Omega Level mutant is because Marvel hasn't stated him to be one, therefore he isn't one.

Just Wondering

The list isn't only 616 right? What about characters like Hyperstorm. Son of Franklin Richards and Rachel Summers with a near limitless range of power and potential. His status in his article is listed as "omnipotent" and apparently had enough power that he theoretically could have sated Galactus forever. Also, I know I've harped Proteus here before, but that was shut down saying he's dead. But he was recently active in the Exiles universe. Also, has anything ever been said about if the Scarlet Witch is or isn't? She seems to be able to do anything, apparently. Onikage725 20:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think for the sake of sanity we're just pointing to people for whom the term "omega" has been used in canon. It's just gotten too messy otherwise. Even my "former omegas" list got shot down.--Rosicrucian 21:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand the need to keep speculation and fanon down, believe me. I just wonder how much more potential a mutant must exhibit beyond "omnipotence" to fit the classifiaction. I assume noone's classiffied him (Hyperstorm) as yet because he's roaming the galaxy incognito. Onikage725 23:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Given that he's the child of two omegas, I'd be very willing to put him on there. It's just that as I said we need to be very specific about referencing issues in which they were given the designation, or we throw open the floodgates, as has been shown in prior revisions. It's rather dicey, even for deserving individuals like Proteus and Hyperstorm.--Rosicrucian 00:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Marvel is a fictional universe. There are several characters that have been called omnipotent, yet it's absurd that they are not on this list only because no character has called them "Omega Level" in a comic book. Let's take Hyperstorm. The man is the son of two omegas and is near limitless, yet because he's naver been called "Omega Level" then he's not on this list. Same thing with Nate Grey: The boy has been called "the most powerful mutant on earth" and he still is not on this list. Maybe a list of Unconfirmed characters should be added? I find it funny that characters that have been able to manipulate energy on a submolecular level, create people and other sentient beings out of thin air, and even manipulate all energy on earth are ignored just because "nobody has called them Omega Level" CrisLander 30 June 2006

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it still can't be likened to a duck until a reputable scientist proclaims it so. That about seems to be the criteria here. Onikage725

In a perfect world I would have no problem with a speculation list. As I've said though, every time we open it up it just gets ridiculous. We cannot seem to establish a consensus unless someone actually flat-out declares it in a comic, so perhaps that's what we have to go with. Otherwise whilst looking for ducks we seem to come up with a distressing number of platypi.--Rosicrucian 01:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The sad but all too true counterpoint to my argument. *shakes head* Onikage725

Wikipedia is not a place to put original reasearch. It does not matter who you think should be an omega. As long as Marvel has not proved it one way or another, any "proof" that you have is purely speculative in nature, and should not be put on Wikipedia. The list of possible omegas has been removed because of that reason. Please do not add any more speculative information or risk being banned.

You know, the sheer volume of debate on this topic suggests that there could be reason for a section (I say section, I probably mean line or two) talking about the proliferation of speculation in fandom. It's certainly a ramification of creating a class for "ultra powerful" characters that everyone seems to suddenly want to get their favorite in. Vocal Minority 00:25

STORM

Omega-level mutant is designation for a certain powerful class of individuals to indicate mutants with the ability (or potential) to exist beyond the physical realm and consciously explore the mystical. Being able to control matter on the sub-molecular scale also seems to be a requirement.

Storm can obviously control matter on a sub-molecular level in a way some what similiar to that of Iceman

   Her powers are deffinately that of an omega because
           - she can control weather on any planet she is on
           - can control ocean currents and solar wind on the sun
           - can change peoples body temperatures
           -Storm has empathy/affinity for the earth. She is aware of every living thing and can even "sense" if a tree is ill

   Now for the mystical aspect
  
   Storm also has the potential to wield white magic because her ancestors were priestesses.
   In an alternate time-line, Storm taught Illyana Rasputin how to use her magic.
   With white magic Storm was able to travel the astral plane, teleport, heal herself and others,
   cast spells, create force fields and more.

   Storm was also part of Apocalypses Twelve along omegas like Jean Grey and Iceman and those also argued to be omegas,
   like Cable and X-man

Unless it is stated in Canon, you can't add it in wikipedia, otherwise it's original research, which is prohibited. Jacobshaven3 21:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that Storm's control over the weather has clear (and unspectacular) limits. At least twice in X-Men comics she's been simply unable to affect a powerful localised storm. Ordinary natural weather on a not particularly grand scale was simply too much for her. As such, she's clearly not that powerful, especially when compared to characters like Magneto (who actually can affect the entire planet).

Storms control over the weather is anything but 'unspectacular'. Her powers have no limits. If she looses her self control that in-its-self makes her a limitless source of power. She is an extreemly powerful mutant, who can control the weather not just on a global scale but on a cosmic scale. She is much more powerful than magneto. (Jaime 31st July 06)

Storm has been confirmed in Black Panther 21 by Iron Man as being a omegal level mutant on the last page in his instructions to sentinels to be on guard as Black Panther and Ororo visit the President of U.S. RossF18 (RossF18 01:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC))

I removed Storm. Iron Man said "Possible Omega Level Mutant". Thus its not confirmed, just speculation, like Chamber.

I hope you had fun removing Storm before any discussion. Again, who said that Storm was a a possible Omega level mutant. It was Iron Man. The guy who has detailed files on everyone and who knows his mutants. He is bordeline genius if not a genius. So, when someone like him says that Ororo was a possible Omega, than she is in fact Omega. He might have said, "Possible," but Iron Man is not known for idly saying anything. For him, if he said "possible" than it is not speculation but in fact just short of having Ororo kick the cr** out of him, which would be the only thing that would make him yell out that she was an Omega. Iron Man does not just idly prepare his troops for someone who is an Omega when someone is not an Omega. So, I do not view statements by someone like Iron Man as sepuclation but confirmation. So I've added Storm back. (RossF18 03:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC))

You can't translate Possible into definite. The writers chose Possible because they are not willing to accept Storm into Omega category. So Storm being Omega, is just wishfull thinking on your part. And Words like Possible and maybe and could be are speculations. Storm removed.

I don't think anyone is translating anything. This is not a game of who can look up the word possible in the dictionary. You need to look at the context in which the statement was made. The writers chose possible, yes, but they also choose a specific person to say the words, i.e., Iron Man, who is known to hedge his bets in his statements as has been said above. Speculation by scientists is every single statement. Scientists are notorious for not saying anything definitive, because then they could be proven wrong as new info comes in. As a scientist, Iron Man would have to qualify, it's in his nature. His saying possible (i.e., likely) Omega just means he doesn't want to be proven wrong in case someone finds evidence to the contrary. However, that doesn't mean he himself did not find ample evidence to name Storm as Omega. Speculation is the basis of scientific inquiry, but saying possible doesn't necessarily diminish the definitiveness of a statement-again it depends on who says it. Don’t play the dictionary looker upper game. Look at the context behind the words which is proper. (67.79.170.194 17:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC))

The same can be said about Chamber. Wisdom, looking at the energy readings called Chamber Omega Level potential. Yet, most here agree that potential does not mean he is Omega. So how is Possible any different?

It is not speculation that Storm is a possible omega-level mutant. It WOULD be specualtion if we, here in the cyber/real world, were to talk about her in such a way that alludes to her being an omega without written confirmation, but it was written in cannon of her possibly being an omega. In other words, it should be stated that she is a "confirmed possible omega," but to assert with absolute certainty that she is an omega would be speculation. (63.249.112.84 07:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC))

I completely agree with your above statement. Storm is a "confirmed possible omega", but not a "Confirmed Omega" and since the list is named "Current Omega-level mutants" and the mutants are listed as "Name of 'confirmed' Omega-Level Mutant", Storm does not belong there.

Iron Man didn't say anything. It was someone in a Sentinel suit. All past Omegas have been confirmed without ambiguity, either in the ONE files - the equivalent of a themed cliffnotes handbook -- or by people who are authorities on mutation -- due to a combination of doctoral training in genetics, their years of studying and teaching mutants, and/or telepathic abilities (which allow for a specialized perspective on the mutant mind allowing for things like turning on/off powers, unlocking abilities etc) -- such as Professor Xavier, Beast or Emma Frost. They've been confirmed in X-Men or X-men related books, by veteran writers, not on a brand new writer's (i.e. Reginald Hudlin's) whim. Storm doesn't belong there. (Nor does Chamber for that matter.) Since essentially every mutant is not an Omega, but still a possible Omega mutant, unless and until Marvel confirms them as an Omega respectively, the phrase "possible Omega mutant" means next to nothing. 60.234.131.122 18:06, 1 January 2007 Unsigned (UTC)

Actually Iron Man DID say she was a "possible Omega-level mutant" as he was uploading instructions to the Sentinels. There wasn't a dialoque, but a monologue by Iron Man informing two sentinels of Storm and Black Panter's arrival to meet with the President of the United States (See the actual scan: http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=possibleomegamutantes9.jpg). Many of your comments contain statements of original research and are not appropriate for wikipedia (i.e. fictional characters with authority other than what is cannonically written of them). I suggest you review wikipedia's rules on original research and fictional comic book characters. 63.249.119.15 21:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

What I don't think you seem to be getting is that he didn't say "Omega level mutant", he said "possible Omega level mutant." I mean, that just means he knows she's powerful. However, that doesn't mean she is as powerful as an Omega.Anyone saying she is, unless they are writing a comic and saying it explicitly, then it's just speculation. Jacobshaven3 11:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Speculation of the meaning of the phrase "possible omega-level mutant" is not neccessary. It's a stand alone phrase that means exactly what it says. It IS cannon that Iron Man described Storm as a "possible omega-level mutant." We cannot add or subtract from the meaning of the character's words without getting into the land of speculation or original research. Therefore, to say that his intent was to merely describe Storm as being powerful is incorrect. The writer chose to use the phrase "possible omega-level mutant" and the writer chose the character of Iron Man to demonstate the phrase's use on Storm with the intent to describe her as such. If he didn't mean exactly what he said, then why did he say what he said? 63.249.119.38 17:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The writer chose to describe her as a *possible* omega level. This implies a large degree of power, but not that she definatively *is* an omega. She has no greater claim to the list here than any other of the many, many mutants that seemingly *could* be that level. Tim 18:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely LOVE Storm and I definitely want her to be Omega-level, however, I am very tired of all of the hints and yet still no definite answer. When she channeled an entire galactic core into her body that was one major hint. Then, she broke out of a statue sporting lightning for hair and breathing fire and ice. That's when it was revealed that she was one with the entire planet and all, which was yet another hint, because she was effortlessly controlling the weather. THEN, the whole possible futrue with her being a wholly elemental being, and I am not even going to start on the whole StormPhoenix what if? Because quite frankly, I'm tired of "what ifs?" And as much as I would love to take all of these accounts, mix them with Black Panther #21, and declare that she is Omega-level, I would much prefer that the author says it beyond a "reasonable doubt". Regardless of the outcome whether she's a "Goddess Omega" or "Goddess Alpha" I still will love Storm.

Chamber addition

As Chamber has only been sited as having the potential to be an Omega at this point, I don't feel he should be include in the list. As previously shown threw editting in this article in the past, the potential to be an Omega does not mean the person is truely an Omega and consequently should not be included in the list. In addition, if Chamber in a new physical incarnation of Apocalypse, while extrememly powereful, Apocalyse has been sited as not being at an Omega-level. Simply put, my vote is to remove Chamber from this list.

New Poster

Agreed Vulcan was serverly scrutinized and he was actually labelled an Omega Mutant 5 times, anywya as Apocalypse has been stated to only be an Alpha mutant I believe Chamber should not make it into the club."Potential" is not enough.

New Poster

It is specifically stated in New Excalibur #9 by Ozymandius that Chamber is now an omega level mutant. Whether you beleive it or not, the writers and editors have agreed. Please stop removing him from the list.

New Poster

Exact quotes from New Excalibur #9:

MI-13 guy: The energy signature is off the charts. Whoever told that kid he doesn't have powers, lied. Big time.

Peter Wisdom: Well, that's just lovely. Now I have a potential Omega-Class mutant running around out there...

I can't find any dialogue from Ozymandias on the subject and, as you can see the dialogue which we do have clearly states that Chamber is 'potential Omega-Class' i.e. they don't know for sure.

However, it should also be noted that the scanning device used by the MI-13 guy reads 'MAX' and shows a power meter at full capacity. Other symbols on the device resemble the Greek letters and could possibly be α (alpha), β (beta) and ω (omega) in which case, it is reading Chamber as Omega. Although this is open to interpretation.

This is all we have to go on. Other posters will decide whether it is sufficient evidence.

The thing about Chamber is that there's been a lot of evidence that points towards the idea - at least - that he's phenominally powerful. GenX #1 showed his mutagenic aura as the most potentent Emplate had ever encountered, he rebuilt himself when his body was destroyed in an annual, he recharged a machine in that fantasy world thing... the list goes on.

The thing is that it's all just suggestion at this point. Even the most recent developments in Excaliber just suggest a huge power increase. Nothing's ever actually established he *is* omega level and that's what this list should be. IMHO he probably is - at least as currently written - but until we get it *said*, he shouldn't he on the list.

I think with Chamber and with everyone else, you have to consider who said that they were potentially an Omega-class mutant. If the character making the statement is not an expert (i.e., Toad or someone like that), than obviously it's a subjective statement. If, however, the character is a scientific genius and is known for being somewhat calm and understaded about things, then a character like this saying that someone was a potential Omega-mutant is basically saying that someone is an Omega-mutant (i.e., Reed Richards, Beast, SHIELD, Iron Man). (23:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC))

Celestials

the criteria of what is to be considered omega level seems to be in contradiction. for example the definction of Omega level mutants talks about the experiements that the Celestrials performed on human race. thus shouldnt the term Omega level mutant also cover evolutionary offshoots of the Human race. For example thease Include The Eternals, Inhumans and Deviants. as they are all results of artifical stimuli as are the homo sapiens of the marvel universe. havent charcters like the eternals demonstrated abilitys that would class them as been omega level mutants. also as the term mutant in the marvel universe to describe people that have powers that baseline human beings dont have. thus the term is not a scinetifc term but a sociological term and should not be treated in the same way as scientifc evidence. marvel comics have stated that all humanity is a form of mutation and thus the term of race is an old fastioned term that contradicts real scientific evidence. thus this negates the " marvel has to declare a person an omega level mutant rule". for example charcters that are inhuman or eternal are not going to consider themselves MUTANTS or homo superor due to the sociologicsl framework of the marvel universe. however this does not prevent them from been evolved to the point where they can host the Phoenix Force.--Dr noire 23:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't go there, it's too complicated especially with all the retconning going around. The Phoenix Force/Jean thing is just so messed up and wrecks so much XHstory. The easiest thing to do is wait for an official statement in a comic.

BTW The Phoenix Force and it's counterpart The First Fallen are destined to manifest themselves in mutants.(Earth mutants) So I don't think anyone else could host the Phoenix Force. That and the Phenix Force is actually a part of Jean not an entity.

Way too much speculation here. For the purposes of this article we have to consider Eternals, Deviants and Inhumans to be seperate races, albeit ones that can interbreed with humans. Your suggestion would make the article far too unmanageable.--Rosicrucian 18:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Many characters in the Marvels universe have powers that baseline human beings don't have. 'Mutant' refers to a specific species of such characters, which Eternals, Deviants, humans (including mutates), Inhumans, and most witches do not belong to. If a character isn't a mutant, they therefore can't be an omega-level mutant. Noneofyourbusiness 16:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Who is this person adding Chamber and Storm to the list? None of them are official Omega Level Mutants.

--82.13.194.153 18:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)== Is Vulcan Human? ==

Should Vulcan even be considered human. shouldnt the fact that he has been artificaly aged useing alien technology bar him from been omega level mutant. as wouldnt that technically mate him a mutate in the marvel universe. and thus bared from been an omega level mutant?--Dr noire 18:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that potential is not enough to put a mutant into the Omega category, however, Bobby Drake, Iceman, COULD be a very powerfull mutant, but has not achieved his potential. But he is on the list nevertheless. Also, Vulcan, Gabriel Summerrs, has been confirmed as an Omega and should ideally be put on the list. Despite the fact that he was bonded with Darwin, he is still confirmed in the actual comic more than once. Therefore, I think he should be put on the list. He is on IGN's list anyway. http://comics.ign.com/articles/706/706450p1.html is the site for it. One thing is certain, with the exclusion of Mr. Immortal, the powers have to be cognicant and activatable. In other words, able to be turned on or off. Gamit is not on the list because of potential. I agree that the criteria is very vague.

They all have 1 thing in common: they can practically play God. They can alter energy/matter on a large scale and become biengs of pure energy. Mr. Immortal just can't die. He is an anomaly to me.

Dr. Noire, Vulcan is only a mutate if that machinery has altered his DNA to give him extra powers. Just speeding him up to adulthood doesn't change his nature. Noneofyourbusiness 20:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Stepford Cuckoos

As a collective mind, they have serious potential (noted by Xavier, Beast, Emma Frost and others) and should be on a list to watch out for in the future. In Phoenix Endsong #5 it was implied that they may be hosting some of the Phoenix force.

Hosting the Phoenix Force and accessing the Phoenix Force (like Jean does, hence why she is an Omega) are two different things. Endsong is also not part of main timeline continuity.

Endsong is part of the main continuity.

I'm thinking someone should design a picture of all the known Omegas...that way the Jean Grey picture won't seem so out of place.

They're licensed trademarks of Marvel. It'd be difficult to argue fair use. --Newt ΨΦ 20:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

-- Oh okay then...thanks...

Magneto

Magneto is an Omega-level mutant. In New X-Men issue #56, the Sentinel states on page 3, "Mutant designate: Magneto. Classification: Omega-level threat."

Actually that meant he was a huge threat because of his control over magnetism not because he's an omega-level mutant.

But the comic does not state that he is a "huge" threat; the word choice of "omega-level" as the classification designated by the Sentinel is far too particular to shrug off as being irrelevant.

Your assumption that "omega-level threat" is the same as "omega-level mutant" is independent analysis however, which makes it original research. --Newt _ΨΦ 17:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"The term [Omega-level mutant] was originaly coined for the mutants who possess the greatest threat" from the Wikipedia article. That right there establishes the direct link between mutants of the greatest threat and Omega-level mutants, and the Sentinel blatantly refers to Magneto as being on the level of the greatest threats, hence the term, "Omega-level threat."

As far as I'm aware, Sentinel's are magnetic. Therefore Magneto with his control of magnetism, is one of the highest levels of threat for a Sentinel, thus Omega level threat. It doesn't mean he's an omega level mutant. Anyhow, just because it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, and talks like a duck, in Wikipedia, unless it's stated that it's a duck somewhere, you can't include it. Jacobshaven3 07:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Gambit!

IIRC Gambit was confirmed an Omega level mutant in his solo series back in the late 90s!! Am I thinking wrong? I'm almost positive.

He has Omega level capability, that's true - which he demonstrated as the Sun (i.e., being able to destroy anything with just a thought) in an ulternate universe. However, most mutants can be said to have Omega level capability if their powers are taken to their logical conclusions. The focus remains on the 616 universe however. (RossF18 03:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

What u talking about? read comics before talking about that. gambit is also omega level at 616 universe. Look at "Gambit v.3 #24" KvaZaR 18:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Why 616 though? Mary-Jane Watson is listed as LGBT, but she only is a lesbian in an Exiles reality. Iceman hasn't reached his full potential, yet, he is included. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 22:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Iceman is classified because his potential was shown when his body was taken over. The only reason he doens't have Omega level powers is because he holds himself back, not because he needs to achieve that potential. A brilliant talented midforward that can strike a goal from half way across the pitch, (soccer analogy here), but chooses not to because he doesn't want the attention, is different from a person that could become that if they put more energy and training into it. Not sure why it's only the 616 universe though, maybe we should include him with a sidenote that he's only portrayed Omega capabilities in an Alternate Universe? Jacobshaven3 00:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless it's specifically stated in a comic, it's OR and speculation. CovenantD 02:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Omega Probabilities

I don't really do much with wikipedia in terms of editing so sorry if I screw this up or am crude (and this is why I don't plan to edit the page myself) but I think there are a few other mutants that should be put on the Omega List.

I forget the history behind when the term was first coined and how it is used. Still, I think that there are a lot of mutants in the Marvel Universe that for whatever reason have not been mentioned or hinted as Omega class, but clearly are.

So basically, I suggest that the Omega Level page also have a sublist under the list of known Omegas based on potential Omegas or hinted Omegas, or mutants that seem like they are almost certainly Omega but haven't actually been labeled it.

Here are some suggestions to start:

1. Apocalypse: If you look at Apocalypse's powers, they are very similar to Mr. M and Elixir in terms of molecular alteration, which seems to be a fairly common trend among higher level or Omega class mutants. Also, he has done so much in the marvel universe, is seen as the first mutant, and is so revered by all that he is probably considered Omega. Further, while the third Summers brother is Omega class and has been revealed as Vulcan, I believe I've heard (even on wikipedia) that Apocalypse was originally planned to be the third Summers brother but then the writer left or something, which further justifies (in real world anyway, though not in the comics) that Apocalypse may be an Omega class mutant.

2. Scarlet Witch: After the events of the House of M and the redefining of her powers, I feel that Scarlet witch should be considered an Omega. Another prominant thing among Omegas and high level mutants is reality warping, which she clearly has, and is damn powerful at that. She has not tapped her true potential until House of M simply because most of it was unconscious, and due to the events of House of M it seems unlikely we'll see it discussed further for quite some time. However, I believe, again even on wikipedia, that it was mentioned that nobody really knows the limits of her powers.

3. Chamber: Another prominant theme in omega class or high level mutants is energy manipulation. Chamber has proven to be a very powerful energy manipulator, and has even been questioned as being a pure psionic being behind a shell. Also, it has been hinted at that Chamber may be a descendent of Apocalypse and his recent 'body' makes this seem even more likely. Thus, if Apocalypse is added to the list (as he should), then Chamber should as well.

4. Ice Man: Ice man, like Elixir and Apocalypse, has a high level of molecular manipulation which seems to be constantly evolving. On top of this, water has often times been seen as having an unlimited potential or being able to absorb other elements into itself, and so there is a sort of mythical theme to this as well. Most people don't necessarily realize this, but Ice Man's powers come from energy manipulation and not from moisture manipulation, giving him another aspect of omega or high level mutants. Finally, his Organic Ice form at least to me signifies a sort of transcended-human state, which many of the high level or omega mutants also share. It has also been hinted at that Ice Man may even by an Omega Class Mutant.

5. Hyperstorm: Hyperstorm is the son of two omega class mutants (Rachel Summers and Franklin Richards), and has an endless potential of powers that he gains from Hyperspace itself. He hasn't appeared largely in the Marvel Universe, but even still the only creature capable of defeating him in terms of sheer power was Galactus. Hyperstorm was Jonathan Richards, however there was another version of Rachel and Franklin's child, who never went by Hyperstorm, named David Richards. David was also very powerful, and may deserve mentioning under Hyperstorm if he were to be added to the list.

6. X-Man: X-Man has often times been noted as the most powerful mutant ever, a prophesized mutant, and was capable of defeating Apocalypse. His powers and history alone should make him an Omega, however if you take into account that Apocalypse is probably an Omega as well, that makes X-man an even more likely candidate.

7. Xorn: It is definitely too early to call yet, but I think there is the potential for Kuan-Yin Xorn to be an Omega class mutant. I'm still really confused as to the nature of Xorn and stuff, but being that he later becomes the Collective in the house of M, as well as all of the things he did even when pretending to be Magneto, leads me to believe there may be a future in him.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.245.175 (talk • contribs)

Again, no. Same as the last three times it's been suggested. Unless it's specifically stated in a comic, it's original research and speculation. CovenantD 23:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

ADD New table: Potential omega level

All readers want it, because article is not on;y about current Omegas. We need Gambit, Chamber and etc. in "potential omega" table. KvaZaR 15:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

If you can make a potential table without any original research, which doesn't break any other Wikipedia guidelines, go ahead. Jacobshaven3 01:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then should Storm be added to that tabel considering that it's in cannon of her being a "possible omega-level mutant?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.119.15 (talk • contribs)

Which article states she is possbily omega, and by who? Jacobshaven3 13:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

In Black Panther vol. 4 Issue #21, on the last page, Iron Man says that Storm is a "possible omega-level mutant." 63.249.119.15 02:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, Squirrel Girl is a strong contender.72.224.14.144 06:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Alpha-level?

There used to be a link and page setup for alpha-level mutants. Did someone delete it and have it redirect to omega? Why?

See (http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/Mutant#Classification) for more info on mutant classifications.

Another Wiki, especially one that reports on a meeting to discuss this with no list of participants or qualifications, is hardly a reliable source of information. The Alpha-level article was nothing more than an unreferenced list and didn't meet any of the criteria for an encylopedic entry. CovenantD 18:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

well i was wondering why both Jean Grey and Mister M are in the List of Current Omega level mutants. firstly Jean Grey was killed in 2004 she should not be included in the list. Mister M died in 198 either issue number 3 or 4 i suggest spliting the list of omegas into current and former. as the list title at the moment is current as these charcters are not been published in 616 cannon any more it should be changed.

Nope. When writing about fiction, use present tense. CovenantD 18:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the table is titled "Confirmed Omega-level mutants", not "Current Omega-level mutants" I don't see how this is a problem. Jean wil probably be back in a year or so, and Mister M was one. If alive he still would be. Even if they were depowered, since you should always describe fiction in the present tense, any character that has been described as Omega level should still be included, unless the person doing the describing is shown to have lied.Jacobshaven3 21:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions about Omega-level mutant. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2