Talk:Oles Buzina

His views

• I am not sure why quoting his views, like here would be inappropriate. This is assuming that he indeed expressed such views (as I assume he did). But this incorrect translation from Russian. It does not tell "rape". My very best wishes (talk) 23:44, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

There's a video of the interview at the original Russian Web site, so I think it's safe to say that Komsomolsakya Pravda didn't make that statement up. That KP story links to the KP story from Dec. 2013 in which the interview originally appeared. The reason I used the quotation I did is that (1) the recent KP story gives it prominence; (2) the quote makes it clear why Ukrainian nationalists dislike Buzina. (BTW, it plobably wouldn't hurt for the article to mention that Buzina did not support the DPR and LNR.

In his edit summary sensoring my edit, VM wrote, "inappropriate. Very inappropriate. Please don't use this person's death as a means of pushing your POV", which exhibits the usual level of absurdity of VM's remarks. How is quoting the views of a murder victim which are probably what got him killed "pushing your POV"? It is merely reporting the POV of the subject of the article, which is highly appropriate for an encyclopedia, unless one lives in a totalitarian society.

As for the translation, it is mine. The word is "rape" in the sense of "oilseed rape". The syntax of the original Russian is a little mangled. – Herzen (talk) 00:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

This is probably Rapeseed. My very best wishes (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

You are quoting the murder victim to push a particular POV. Ukraine is not a country, Ukrainians aren't a people, blah blah blah blah, it's okay then if Russia fucks it all up. No need for that. Just describe his views in prose. Block quotes should be avoided anyway.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:21, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

It is more interesting that Putin discussed his murder only 22 minutes after the event on his annual call-in show with the Russian public [1], but everyone knows that all Q&A on these shows by Putin are prepared well in advance... My very best wishes (talk) 14:33, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

He was informed during live interview, and ?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 06:58, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Responsibility

There is no such currently organization as OUN in Ukraine [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 05:44, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I am afraid there is and was reported by Euromaidan Press and other news media.[3] "In the ATO zone we are known as Battalion OUN. Officially, we are the battalion for the territorial defence of the city of Nizhyn, but are now here. The Mayor and officials took the risk of agreeing to our formation". Also OUN endorsed the murder, didn't claim responsibility. UPA did, which was a small nationalist organization(basing its name on the previous responsible for genocide and ethnic cleansing)formed during Euromaidan by some members of Svoboda. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 06:58, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

So, where exactly (according to multiple RS) people noted in your last ref. said that they killed Buzina? There is no such claim in the reference you provided. My very best wishes (talk) 13:04, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

UPA claimed responsibility for the murder, OUN endorsed it.But I am glad you no longer falsely claim organization like OUN doesn't exist.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:35, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

New UPA

I am trying to find a agreeable version regarding confirmed existence of the new UPA organization. The fact that such organization exists is definitely notable and observed by RS, we can debate how to phrase it, but we can't leave it out. It is not NPOV for sentence claiming it is fake to remain, while at the same time removing RS stating that such organization indeed exists. Please note that while Die Zeit author notes that it needs to be confirmed if the organization conducted the murder of if it is the same one, he names it as a viable and plausible situation.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

What evidence exists as to who they are, Molobo? What do you make of the forensic linguistic information regarding this 'new UPA' not being native Ukrainian speakers? So which particular aspect of its being 'viable and plausible' are you so NPOV about introducing? Perhaps we can cherry pick our way to identifying them as Polish agent provocateurs trying to make mud stick, hmm? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:15, 5 May 2015 (UTC

I am basing the information on Reliable Sources::BBC and Die Zeit. If you have Reliable Sources saying they were Polish, feel free to add them.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:39, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Iryna. To briefly summarize this, no one actually declared the responsibility, and no one knows who was the murderer. These are just rumors and claims by people do not deserve any trust - I do not mean the journalists but their "sources". Let's wait for something more reliable. My very best wishes (talk) 22:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

The essence of the matter is that you (MyMoloboaccount) are misrepresenting a source. Yes, Anton spoke to some people who called themselves "UPA" back in ... whenever. Then, some people who also called themselves "UPA" supposedly claimed responsibility for this murder. There is no indication what so ever that these were the same people, rather than just some random individuals running around yelling "UPA! UPA!" at two different points in time (this is putting aside some very plausible conspiracy theories). Which of course there would be. Anton says as much. Please stop misrepresenting what he says.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:56, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Bottom line, conspiracy theories aside, and forensic linguists picking up on Russianisms in the missives received, we have bubkus even in terms of whether the group claiming responsibility being those responsible = any mention of this is non-information. When (or, indeed, if) those responsible are found and are identified, and their rationale exposed, we'll have content. Anything less is WP:RECENTISM dressed up to suit POV purposes on your behalf, MyMoloboaccount. Another big cross against your ability to be an NPOV editor. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:29, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Ihor Mosiychuk

I am looking for source regarding statements made by Ukrainian MP Ihor Mosiychuk and former deputy of the neo-Nazi battalion Azov on 18th June regarding the murder of Busina. I have translation of his statements but I need reliable sources informing about them. Can anyone help?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Here it in his facebook https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=840166972726738&set=a.537088073034631.1073741826.100002003280271&type=1&theater ,

and articles in media: http://gordonua.com/news/politics/Mosiychuk-YA-schitayu-chto-teh-kto-likvidiroval-ukrainonenavisnika-Buzinu-stoit-nagradit-zvaniem-Geroya-Ukrainy-85636.html http://espreso.tv/news/2015/06/19/radykal_mosiychuk_vvazhaye_geroyamy_ukrayiny_vbyvc_buzyny http://gazeta.ua/articles/life/_radikal-mosijchuk-vvazhaye-vbivc-buzini-geroyami-ukrayini/632722 Cathry (talk) 12:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Note that none of these qualify as WP:RS. They are sources and verifiable, but in order to use them, they would have to be attributed. As I understand it, gordonau, has been discussed at the RSN at some point in the last couple of years and would come closest to having been evaluated as being (sort of) reliable. I'd say that they would require further assessment at the RSN or, more importantly, at the appropriate article as related to the context. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Translation of "Вурдалак Тарас Шевченко"

Just a note that "вурдалак" doesn't actually translate as (Russian) "упырь"/(Ukrainian) "упир/вупир". While google translate may present the word as being interchangeable with "vampire", the nomenclature is very much a specific. As Buzina knew both languages (and having read his 'essay'), he chose to use 'vurdalak' for its broader and more generic implications as Shevchenko being an unwholesome, perverse monstrosity who tainted the Ukrainian concept of its own ethnicity. As such, ghoul is probably the best translation.

In order to stay as true as possible to the context, I'd actually prefer to use 'fiend' or 'monstrosity' as the term encompasses evil incarnations such as shapeshifters, werewolves, etc. To simply translate it as 'vampire' only carries connotations of the contemporary, Western concept.

Any thoughts from other editors? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:10, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Vampire is the most common contemporary meaning of vurdalak in Ukraine, and that is the meaning I was growing up with.--Lute88 (talk) 11:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, Lute88. I know that I tend to get overly pedantic over such matters. I wasn't brought up in Ukraine and both my work and life experience (i.e., my great-grandfather was this gentleman) has revolved around linguistic pedantry. If 'vampire' is the commonly understood translation, I'm fine with it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:31, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

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Talented, but not reliable

I have read two of Busina's works (related to some subjects I edited in Wikipedia), and as a "true" Wikipedian, I compared his claims with sources he referred to. With a great sorrow I must notice I would have to "revert" many of his contributions as contradicting to the sources cited. I don't know (and don't care) what kind of journalist he was, but as an essayist he sucks, and his essays definitely cannot be used as reliable sources. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

• 100% behind you on this issue, Staszek Lem. Frankly, I've been getting fed up with characterisations of both (relatively) recently deceased and deceased persons creeping into BLPS, as well as that of evaluations of their works by contemporary 'historians' (there's so much UNDUE around that it's enough to make NPOV-ers' heads swivel. Major overhauls need to be put on the agenda, particularly Eastern European, Middle Eastern & other major hotspot articles. How many times has there been community-wide consensus on RS publications? It's an ongoing battleground with more 'righting great wrongs' than NPOV sense as sacrosanct. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Ukraine as independent state or as part of Russia?

• "His views on Ukraine expressed on multiple occasions during years of journalism and political commentary included statements that Ukraine should be an independent state, not part of Russia"

Has been changed in:[4]

• "His views on Ukraine expressed on multiple occasions during years of journalism and political commentary included statements that Ukraine should be part of Russia"

I read in the source:[5] "I do not deny the independence of Ukraine", or "I dream that the citizens of Ukraine love each other, regardless of political differences. I would like it to be a federal country". Maybe I am missing some part to read in the source? Mhorg (talk) 12:16, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I think you are completely wrong.

In the source of your claim he clearly states:

"Что касается меня, то я считаю, что Украина и дальше должна оставаться суверенным государством"

Meaning: "As for me, I think that Ukraine should remain an independent state" 37.99.43.164 (talk) 09:17, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Regarding being "A federal country" he means federalism inside of Ukraine. He says:

"Я мечтаю, чтобы граждане Украины любили друг друга, невзирая на политические разногласия. Мне хотелось бы, чтобы это была федеративная страна"

Meaning: "I dream about citizens of Ukraine loving each other despite their political disagreements. I want it to be a federal countr." 37.99.43.164 (talk) 09:20, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Ah, excuse me, seems like we have the same point. This article should be changed, this particular claim on the page we are talking about is misleading. 37.99.43.164 (talk) 09:23, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian Insurgent Army demonised

This edit takes away the meaning imho. The point is that the original UPA is a target of current Russian propaganda about Nazis (that's fact, not speculation), and moving it makes it appear that the new entity (which may or may not exist) is demonised by Russia. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

That article by Shekhovtsov is from 2015, long before the investigations, which in any case targeted people from the Ukrainian far right. So it makes little sense to cast shadows on Russia, which apparently had nothing to do with this murder. Either we take that part out of the whole thing or put it in "speculations". Mhorg (talk) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)