Talk:Old Ironsides (trophy)

Existence of a predating triangular rivalry

It recently came in contention for this article as to whether or not a triangular rivalry existed between Pitt, Penn State, and West Virginia prior to the introduction of the trophy proper. Please add any thoughts, citations, and propositions to this topic.

It is notable that the round-robin was regularly played beginning in 1904 and each of the three schools had heated rivalries with the other two. Articles and papers about this period for any of the three schools in general are fairly difficult to obtain and rarely go beyond summaries of the games since rivalries were less formal and more like a mutual passion between two fanbases and/or student bodies.

Other round robins & triangular rivalries which existed and/or still exist experience the same issue (eg. Oregon-OSU-Washington-WSU, beehive boot, WMU-CMU-EMU, etc.) while these rivalries are inarguably (except maybe the NW Championship) real and, in the case of the latter two examples preexisted their trophies, it probably should not be expected that there even exist numerous citations on the subject of pre-trophy rivalries. CFB in general was standardized well after this round robin began, and that is extremely important to note.

Furthermore, while the sources are uncitable and hearsay, any athletic department historian or archivist at the three schools can corroborate this claim (In particular at The University of Pittsburgh where I was previously employed).

Most factually, in any game of the triangular rivalry, attendance spiked, broadcasting became more likely, and student publications wrote far more content about the upcoming or previous game. These all were true in 1904 and have been true through the modern day (Penn State & West Virginia drew the largest and second largest crowds to exposition park respectively in the 1904 WUP season)

Given the low traffic and low importance grade of this page, I believe it is most reasonable for it to be regarded as a rivalry in content until this debate is concluded although it is also most reasonable to forgo the name change to (rivalry) until after the necessary arguments are made. This temporary compromise should allow for continued cooperative development of the history and champions sections while maintaining consistency despite the disagreement. At the point at which this topic is concluded, the correction from rivalry to trophy would be easier than trophy to rivalry in terms of editing time since one is additive and one is removal of content.

I do ask that concerned or disagreeing contributors, including myself, make their thoughts known here prior to a removal of content. I understand the necessity for speedy moderation of content and fact-checking of theoretical arguments or less reliably cited ideas, just keep in mind the depth of research necessary to prove or disprove issues pertaining to this topic and the lack of existing historical analysis on the topic.

Almost all comprehensive histories, lists, or claims made on this page are, up to this point, the only ones of their kind ever created. That being said, time is needed for decision-making and debate. Below are tagged users who have made major, recent contributions to this page who should be kept in the loop.

@PK-WIKI

@Dionysius Miller Dionysius Miller (talk) 15:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the article so far. Like you, I would really like to see this trophy be discovered and for the teams to again embrace the 3-team round robin.

"Old Ironsides" is the name of the trophy. I have not seen any citation calling the 3-way rivalry "Old Ironsides" in an abstract sense absent the trophy. Hence my revert of the page move. It's fine to refer to the rivalry in the prose, but the trophy is the notable bit.

I've yet to see ANY reference to a triangular rivalry outside of the awarding of this trophy. Of course each individual game of the round robin was important and saw attendance spike... those games are parts of the existing 1-on-1 rivalries, which are far more notable than the 3-way.

In my opinion you should focus on tracking the awarding of the trophy itself first. The article needs a results table with annual citations for the trophy being awarded.

We can perhaps expand the results table beyond the bounds of the trophy award, if reliable sources show the tally being calculated for those years. For reference, see the citations I added at Northwest Championship that do just that.

Please be careful about WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:SPECULATION. You're including lots of details that might seem obvious but are not supported by the cited references. We have citations that say the Junior Chamber of Commerce awarded the first trophy... no mention of them in citations for the last award... but that doesn't mean you can draw broad conclusions about their later involvement without citations to prove it. We have to just write that they awarded the first one.

I'm going to mark the trophy photo as needing authorship data and copyright provenance, it would be great if you are able to provide that. Looking forward to future improvements to the article.

PK-WIKI (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Good to know for the Jaycee involvement example, I was evidently speculating so you're 100% justified to not include that section. I'll work on seeing about a third party tallying for post- or pre-trophy claimants.

I'll get down the years with a directly awarded trophy prior to that, and I'll promptly see about finding the authorship of the photo. Although, that may prove difficult. I may have to dive into an archive of negatives but that will require a substantial investment of time.

On the way of referring to the rivalry you are, again, completely right. I can agree that the trophy is the notable name while it is simultaneously convenient to refer to the rivalry by that name such as seems to have been the case in the past. Dionysius Miller (talk) 19:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

This article on the rivalry is interestingly phrased,"[…] Old Ironsides Trophy, symbolic of supremacy in the Pitt-State-WVU yearly rivalry."

Admittedly it isn't enough to prove anything on its own, but I perceive it as very promising to see the trophy referred to as being symbolic of a larger rivalry as opposed to the round robin being a battle for the trophy. Again admittedly, it's easy to see what you want to see where there's nothing so this is more a possible indicator and it is certainly not proof of anything.

Also, @PK-WIKI I'm not going to keep bothering you about this unless I find something actually compelling.

EDIT: Another article from less than a month after the trophy's first presentation refers to Pitt, Penn State, and WVU as the "Big Three" and "Tri-State Big Three". In this article there is only one passing mention of Old Ironsides and that mention is made within the context of it being a reward to the "Big Three Championship". I'll be doing a deeper dive into that phrase but it is, again, extremely interesting to note and does point towards interesting concepts. Dionysius Miller (talk) 14:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Articles for review on whether they show proof of a pre-1952 triangular rivalry

It is important to keep in mind for these that Old Ironsides was only introduced around October 23, 1952:

this February 17, 1921 article directly covers an upcoming W&J-Pitt game and, in detail, describes that season's state of the "Big Three" and the associated "sectional title" won by the winner of a triangular rivalry. It notes that, that season, it was unlikely to impossible that it wouldn't end in a tie but that Pitt and WVU still would play a tough game. This source is about as clear of an early source I've found thus far which directly covers an existing rivalry. (Currently Cited)

June 27, 1937 article which details the participants in the college golf national championship at Oakmont. In listing the origins of the participants it references "the east's [...] Big Three". Notably, the article specifically details Pitt's golf potential and does not mention elsewhere in the clubs' origins Pitt, Penn State, or West Virginia. (Currently Cited)

May 19, 1950 article on the tri-state college championships in track. Details competition between the Big Three. (Currently Cited)

October 27, 1951 article citing "top honors among the district's Big Three" at stake in the PSC-WVU game should the winner go on to defeat Pitt. (Currently cited)

November 19, 1951 article on the Big Three Championship (currently cited)

February 26, 1952 article which refers to the district's big three as more like a title than a championship. It is certainly not evidence against a rivalry, it mentions the "Big Three" in reference to their situation compared against one another. That points towards their recognition as a unit.

October 17, 1952 article. This one refers to the three as the "Tri-State Big Three Conference" which is interesting. The table is identical to others of that season in the Post-Gazette save for including the word "conference". (Currently Cited)

November 20, 1952 article which includes a chart for "Big Three" in-rivalry win-loss and another, separate, Big Three scoring championship between players. (Currently Cited)

December 26, 1952 article. This one makes no mention, let alone acknowledgement, of the trophy (which at this point was a couple months old and had never left Pittsburgh). It instead details the results of the Big Three championship, won by Penn State. (Currently Cited)

November 24, 1953 article focusing on the Big Three title with no mention of an associated trophy. (Currently Cited)

November 15, 1954 article which refers to two separate and distinct titles "Old Ironsides" and "Tri-State championship". (Currently Cited)

October 28, 1959 article which very clearly makes a distinction between the trophy and the rivalry. More than implies a distinction between the two. (Currently Cited)

November 8, 1961 article which, through structure, separates the rivalry from the fight for Old Ironsides by stating the trophy was symbolic of the rivalry. (Currently Cited)

Any person interested should reply with thoughts and comments on the individual articles and/or add more to this list. These starting three likely aren't substantial enough alone but they do point towards a starting pattern where a stand-alone triangular rivalry may have been usurped by the Old Ironsides Trophy and so ended with the trophy's loss.

At the very least, it does mean that pre-trophy championships should be considered for addition. Though, each season for that inclusion probably will require proof of being documented under one of these titles. Dionysius Miller (talk) 15:00, 13 December 2023 (UTC)