Talk:Old Home Town

Genre Glen Campbell albums

Hi BuddyofHolly, to avoid running into an edit war, can we discuss the genre of those Glen Campbell albums? I think countrypop would be the most accurate description, but since that is a subgenre of country I decided to use "country". Yes, pop means that there a multiple influences, but to describe Old Home Town purely as an r&b album seems rather farfetched? Lumdeloo (talk) 18:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Most of Glen's seventies and early eighties are very R&B influenced, and none of them sound relatively Country. When he began recording in Nashville, with Letter to Home, it was definitely Country with R&B roots. Most fans agree, including those of Glen's own forum, that most of his output is not Country. He's only made a handful of country albums; most in the mid-eighties to early nineties. I would never put Rhinestone Cowboy, Bloodline, Southern Nights, Basic, etc in the Country category; the majority of his albums were recorded in California, and I don't understand how anyone could mistake him for Country or for trying to be Country other than his song's subject matter and his own Arkansas background. I'd say mark the albums as R&B and Pop, because they were once "popular" music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuddyOfHolly (talk • contribs) 21:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I agree Glen isn't pure country. Those albums are basically pop music (with r&b, gospel, folk, rock influences) but sang by a country boy, hence Glen's special brand of countrypop, or as he called it himself, "crock". I can hear r&b mainly in Rhinestone Cowboy and Bloodline (partially brought in by Lambert & Potter). What do you say about this comprise:

- Rhinestone Cowboy, Bloodline (pop, r&b)
- Southern Nights, Basic (pop, soft rock)
- It's the World Gone Crazy (pop)
- Old Home Town (country, pop)

I would also be willing to do a little poll on the GC forum. Let me know what you think. Thanks! Lumdeloo (talk) 19:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say GC is barely Country. I have never heard, read, or seen him say that he is. Southern Nights is not Soft Rock; if it were, I wouldn't be listening to it. Old Home Town isn't Country at all. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 21:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, new proposal: - Rhinestone Cowboy, Bloodline (pop, r&b)
- Southern Nights, Basic, It's the World Gone Crazy (pop)
- Old Home Town (pop, country)

About Hometown, I would like to add country for that one and skip r&b. Here's what I think. In the allmusic review quite a lot of genres are mentioned: country, gospel, soul, jazz, pop, but r&b is not one of them. I have 2 other reviews of the album and they too consider the album as either country flavored pop or pop flavored country. Songs from the album and the album itself charted on the country charts and were played on country radio (i know that doesn't say everything but apparantly some people considered it as country). And to me, at least "I Was Too Busy Loving You", "A Woman's Touch" and "Ruth" are more country than anything else. Again, we can also do a poll on Old Hometown on the GC forum. If r&b is often mentioned as a genre, then you have me convinced. What do you say? Lumdeloo (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Reviews mean nothing, and AllMusic is one of the worst sites out there; none of his albums have proper reviews. "Old Home Town" "A Few Good Men" and "I Love How You Love Me" are prime examples of R&B. On the GC forum, the general consensus is that Glen is Soft Rock, and I find that a little offensive to Glen. I'd take Blue Eyed Soul over Soft Rock, or Country. As I said before, Letter To Home was Country, but Old Home Town is definitely not. It shares no similarities with his contemporaries of the time: Alabama, George Strait, etc. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 18:39, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

So basically what your saying is that reviews, charts, airplay, newspaper articles, genereal consensus all mean nothing and that I should accept "Old Hometown" as being described as an R&B album just because you say so? But that's not how wikipedia works. All the available sources point towards this album being viewed as country or country pop, maybe easy listening, with some influences from gospel, blues and jazz. Your personal opinion (or mine) is of no use in deciding the content of a wikipedia page. So please come forward with some sources to back up your claim. Lumdeloo (talk) 08:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

So, I suppose you believe that mainstream Country music is Country just because the artist says they're Country? What does Taylor Swift have in common with Hank Williams? Very little. What does Old Home Town have in common with anything Country? It doesn't sound like the Country of the time period, such as Alabama or George Strait, was recorded in California on a non-Country label, and any source online labels it as Country or Country Pop, but what is THEIR source? The point of Wiki may not be based on someone's opinion, but you're utilizing something, such as a review, as a guideline to determine what an album's genre is. That's ridiculous, because there is not one song that sounds Country on that album: It's the same with most of Glen's seventies output too! You have labeled every Glen Campbell album as Country, when most of his true fans agree that he is not, and he has never claimed to be. On AllMusic the review is written by Lindsay Planer, the same person who wrote reviews for John Coltrane, The Who, and Thelonious Monk; I have yet to find a Country artist she has written a review for. Guess what? All of his albums are listed as Country Pop. Hey, Little One is also of these albums, and it's clearly a Folk album. Your sources are bad, rely on opinion, and unless Glen Campbell says, "Hey, all the albums are Country," then there's no way to define them as such. My evidence is upon listening to the album, being a musician, having a good knowledge of music in general, and owning many, many albums of most genres. Old Home Town has more in common with a Smoky Robinson album than Alabama. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

No i don't believe what artists themselves say about their music is deciding on how to categorize their music. And in wikipedia terms, the artist himself is not considered an independent source. I know Glen Campbell doesn't consider himself a country artist per se, yet his music can be categorized as country or country pop and, for some (maybe even a lot of) albums, as mainly (mainstream) pop, but in almost all cases, he displays a variety of styles on each album. That doesn't make it r&b or folk or rock albums though. However, fact is that you have to have some third party sources to back up what you say in a wikipedia article. I didn't decide that, that's just the way wikipedia works. What my sources (magazines, newspapers, websites, official charts) at least indicate is how Glen's music was regarded at the time when it was released and (the allmusic review) how it is viewed today. It's no use trying to discredit these sources. They are considered as valid within the wikipedia context. Your "evidence" however, is "just" your opinion which very well may be the result of your own research into this subject. However, this (original research) is not not acceptable as a source on wikipedia. So even in the case that you are right (which I think you aren't by the way, at least not when you call "Old Home Town" an r&b album, I do agree some albums shouldn't be labelled country or only country), you still need reliable third party source to back up your claim. I know the problem, because I wrote almost all of the discography related pages for GC albums. There are not many sources available on GC's albums because his work is not reviewed anymore (except for the compilations and Meet Glen Campbell), so sometimes it's hard to make a point, without the appropriate sources. But, again, in this case, I think you're wrong and unless you can come up with something more than your personal opinion, I will have to revert (some of) your changes again. Hope you understand. No offense intended. Oh I forgot, the album was recorded for Atlantic America, Atlantic's (then) new country label. Yes, it was Glen's last album be recorded in California (up until Favorite Hymns and then Meet Glen Campbell) but that doesn't say anything; there were a lot of country albums recorded in California (Merle Haggard to name one) Lumdeloo (talk) 21:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

If you change any of my changes, I'll change them right back. Why reliable sources do you have? Charts? Reviews? They mean nothing to me, or music fans. Old Home Town is not Country. Name one element of Country music, how it related to the then-current Country music, what elements of traditional Country music, and how Glen's voice sounds Country on any song. I'll give you an analysis of the album the way I see it.

1. Old Home Town - The song begins with Harmonica and Electric Piano. Glen's voice is deep, soulful, and doesn't have a Southern accent to it. The simple acoustic acoustic part is seen throughout his music frequently to show his presence; many of his albums don't have much guitar part other than that.

2. I Love How You Love Me - Again, an electric piano backed by an acoustic guitar part. The bassline is doing it's own thing, much like James Jamerson did on Marvin Gaye's records. The vocal is deep, soulful, just as it was on the previous track. Larry Kolber co-wrote the songs: He has written for Wayne Newton, Neil Sedaka, and Bobby Vinton. Barry Mann has written for Elvis, Dusty Springfield, The Moody Blues, and the Lovin Spoonful. This isn't a Country song.

3. Hang on Baby - Has a very disco/funk groove. Joe Rainey has written many songs for Glen, but this is his pen name (His real name is Steve Hardin). Richard Rodgers is a name I hope everyone knows, as he was apart of 'Rodgers and Hammerstein.' Not Country.

4. Blues My Naughty Sweet - Jazzy, Bluesy. Charles McCarron, Russ Morgan, and Arthur Swanstrom are Jazz composers.

5. A Few Good Men - Has a rock feel, but with R&B overtones with the keyboard, bass, vocals.

6. On The Wings of My Victory - A Black Gospel number. Bob Corbin wrote this, though: Point one for you.

7. I Was Too Busy Loving You - A Jimmy Webb tune. He isn't a Country artist, and an orchestra is playing.

8. Ruth - Jud Strunk is a Country writer: Point Two for you.

9. A Woman's Touch - Gospel inspired, an orchestra plays. Jerry Fuller has written for Stevie Wonder, Rick Nelson, Sam Cooke, and Tom Jones.

10. Mull of Kintyre - A Paul McCartney tune - Need I say more?

Unless you can prove something else, I say it's R&B. Wikipedia doesn't require sources for their genres: Half the albums on here wouldn't even have a genre if that were so. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

When there is a strong disagreement between editors on the genre, you DO need to come up with some sources to back up your claim. So far, you have come up with nothing. So it's you who has to prove this is not only your individual opinion but that there is some form of consensus on categorizing "Old Hometown" as an r&b album. By the way, I notice that you use the composer to indicate the genre of the recording. But that doesn't say a thing. For instance, take Tom Jones' version of A Woman's Touch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtN-7zX3g-s) from the album Tom Jones Country. Or Mull of Kintyre, which was also recorded by other country artists. Also, you seem to think that if there's an orchestra playing, it can't be country either. It's probably so that YOU think that it's not REAL country music or whatever, but again, on wikipedia they're are not interested in what you (or I) personally think. Í will try to find out what to do in a deadlock situation like this. In the meantime, I would suggest you read up on the policies of wikipedia. For instance, this article: [1] Lumdeloo (talk) 12:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Response to Third Opinion Request:

Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Old Home Town and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: Genres are like (just about) everything else here at Wikipedia. So long as they are not challenged they can stand but once they are challenged then they must be — eventually — removed unless a reliable source can be provided for them. (I would note that one of the primary goals of the Music Genres Task Force is to "Continue to work through genres adding {{Citation needed}} to all unsourced claims.") The solution here is to either {{Citation needed}}-tag the genre and provide a generous amount of time for a source to be provided (which is the preferred choice) or to remove it altogether until a reliable source can be provided for the claim (not best practices, but acceptable under WP policy). If different reliable sources give varying genres, the solution is to list and source them all.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TransporterMan (TALK) 21:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC) Thank you very much for your opinion. I hadn't thought of this solution yet (using Citation needed). I always thought it was better to remove disputed and unsourced claims (your second solution) but i'm happy to go with this. Can I ask for one clarification? Part of the discussion above is also the question what sources are considered reliable in determining the genre of a specific album. Most albums don't have scientific articles written about them, discussing the genre of the album at length. What -is- available (if you're lucky) are professional reviews, newspaper articles and of course information on which charts the album and its singles charted. I guess the record label can also give a hint on the genre. Are these to be considered appropriate sources in this case? (I would say yes, based on WP:SOURCES, but i would like to know your opinion on this as well, since it was part of the discussion I have with BuddyOfHolly). Thanks in advance. Lumdeloo (talk) 10:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't really know the answer, but let me recommend this search of the Reliable Sources Noticeboard for resources on that subject. Let me clarify one other thing: I should have mentioned it previously, but the source of what I said earlier about removal vs tagging is WP:BURDEN. It doesn't mention tagging, it just says that the best practice is to allow someone who introduces or reasserts an assertion some time to source it before removing it. Tagging serves additional notice, however, that it needs to be done. The length of time really depends on the nature of the assertion as noted in the policy. The documentation to the {{Citation needed}} tag once said 30 days. That was removed, but I still regard it to be a pretty good rule of thumb. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

TransporterMan, can an article from Blogspot be used as a Source? I have a friend who have reviewed the album, and can provide a more current point of view than outdated, bad reviews which have no merit other than they are a third party source.--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 23:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably not. Except for some blogs that are operated by mainstream news sources, blogs are not generally accepted as sources because they're self-published. See WP:BLOGS and WP:NEWSBLOG for the distinction. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

BuddyOfHolly, I would like to add the {{Citation needed}} tag to R&B as genre and add Country and Pop with several inline references. I understand that you don't agree with these labels, but I hope you will agree that, in order to challenge them, or indeed, to even add R&B as an additional genre, you will have to provide some reliable sources. Lumdeloo (talk) 10:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Transporter Man, Lumdeloo's sources are about as reliable as a personal blogspot. I don't know if you're familiar with allmusic, but that site has consistent errors, and charts for music mean very little. Considering that many artists who aren't of a certain genre are put on a chart, such as Hall and Oates being put on African American charts, charts have little to do with what category an artist belongs in. If a Blogspot review is not reliable, then I can show evidence as to why any of Lumdeloo's sources aren't.--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 22:01, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It is also noteworthy that Glen was not on Atlantic's country/Nashville division, and Jerry Fuller, the producer, is well known for R&B and Rock music. Charts mean nothing, as I have stated before. Old Home Town shares NO similarities with (then) Contemporary Country, such as Alabama or George Strait, and was recorded in California. When Glen made the switch to country, he was on a different label, worked with Jimmy Bowen, and recorded in Nashville, TN. None of the sources provided are up to date, allMusic is a terrible source. Most Glen fans agree that Glen IS NOT Country. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

BuddyofHolly, removing generally accepted sources from an article and replacing them by a blog written by your friend, is not the way things should be done on wikipedia. You think you're right, I think I'm right. The only way to settle this, is coming up with reliable sources. Allmusic.com is widely considered to be a reliable source, so it's no use for you to say it isn't. I'm afraid you won't come to your senses, but I have to warn you, if you continue this way, I will have to seek different measures.

And, just for the record, Glen WAS on Atlantic's country label, called Atlantic America. Jerry Fuller produced pop, rock, r&b and country acts so that doesn't say a thing. Charts at least indicate how the music was regarded when it was released, by the industry, the general public and the radio stations. No, Old Home Town doesn't sound like George Strait, it's an example of countrypop, something Glen has been doing since the 60s. As I said many country albums (including Glen's "I remember Hank Williams") were recorded in California, so that doesn't say a thing either. Yes, "Letter to Home" was more country than "Old Hometown". That doesn't make "Old Home Town" an r&b album. Sources from the time the album was released as just as valuable as newer sources (like the allmusic review, allmusic being widely used as a source throughout wikipedia). I would say all Glen Campbell fans would agree that Glen is definitely NOT r&b. Pop, easy listening, soft rock and country, that's how he is regarded by fans and critics. In fact, your own blog does say it rather nicely:

"In the sixties, he recorded mostly folk/pop oriented material (He popularized Donovan's "Catch the Wind" before Donovan), with the seventies being dominated with his bizarre combination of Soft Rock (Eww), Pop, light Country, and his old signature sound." Lumdeloo (talk) 13:32, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

BuddyOfHolly, as expected, you have reverted the genres I added including their sources again and replaced them with your own, unsourced, genre (r&b). You also have edited and deleted comments by another editor (me) on a (this) talk page. For someone who says he respects wikipedia, you have a strange way of showing it! I will go ahead and post about this conflict on the reliable sources message board. I also asked TransporterMan for some further assistance but he appears to be on a holiday (good for him). Lumdeloo (talk) 19:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Lumdeloo, I have already made clear that Old Home Town is an R&B album, and Allmusic is not a reliable source; I don't care if Wikipedia has declared it so. You have no background in music, music theory, music history, etc and I find you ill equipped to provide information about Glen Campbell as you consider him a Country artist. War has been declared.--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 20:02, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

BuddyOfHolly, please calm down and take a moment to think. This is not how we handle content disputes, declaring war on another editor is not appropriate. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn, I think I have made it clear that I don't give a damn.--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, then, I am asking you to take a bit of time to reconsider. What we have here is a content dispute and I would like to think we could handle it amicably. Do you think we could do that? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I would reconsider if everyone would "handle it amicably." The problem is that Wiki is going strictly by "reputable sources" and not by actual information. For example, I feel Allmusic is a biased and poorly managed website. Search Glen Campbell, and you'll find several entries for the same man. There are songs credited to people who didn't write or record them, dates are incorrect all the time, and the reviewers are often not even fans of the music; therefore they pigeonhole certain artists into one genre. Now, if a Blogspot, which specializes in music reviews from an actual musician, cannot be used as a source, and what I have taken so much time to type out on this discussion page is going to be ignored by Lumdeloo, what other choice do I have?--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 00:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

You have the choice to discuss the issue here, and to request comments from other editors via one of the noticeboards. Lumdeloo posted to one of those, and that attracted my attention. I'm not very familiar with GC or this album, but fwiw, I think you have a point in regard to allmusic, and we can certainly consult other sources. It seems to me that some of the songs are pop and some are country. I personally think r&b a stretch, but I'm an old fart, and we really need some additional sources. My suggestion is we go off and find some additional sources. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Have you heard this album at all? It does not sound Country or Pop at all. It's more comparable to Boz Scaggs.--BuddyOfHolly (talk) 00:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright, Lumdeloo, I have thought this through. If you have sources which say each Glen Campbell album is a Country album, I am willing to back down; even if it's from AllMusic. However, I would appreciate it if you could come up with other sources outside of charts and allMusic as well - Just to humor a fellow GC fan. I'm tired of fight with you, but also with the higher-ups of Wiki, excluding Nuujinn, who seems like an alright fellow. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

BuddyOfHolly, first of all, i am happy that we are on talking terms again. I'm not used to people declaring war on me! Thanks Nuujinn to helping us out here. I hope we can go from here and just cooperate on the wikipedia pages of the artist we both love. I did saw that you changed the genre on a lot of other GC albums yesterday and I don't agree with some of those changes. So that can be our first testcase. If we can reach a comprise on those genres by talking (like I tried to do at the start of our discussion) then that can save a lot of time. At points where we really disagree both of us have to come up with reliable sources to back up our claims. Does that seem like an OK strategy to you?

Nuujinn, if you are reading this, could you comment on what would be reliable sources in deciding on the genre of an album, next to reviews/articles? Can charts be used (for instance, if an album charted on the easy listening charts, does that count as a source for saying the album is easy listening?). Can the label on which the album appeared be used (for instance, if the album was released on a jazz-only label, can you use that as a source to name it a jazz album)? It's sometimes difficult enough to find reviews for old albums, and then you have to be lucky to have the reviewer saying something about the genre.

BuddyOfHolly, I don't have sources which say each Glen Campbell album is a country album. I don't think such a source exists. Furthermore, I would not agree with that statement. Glen Campbell is a crossover artist, he can't be confined to one type of music. That goes for most of his albums too. The only reason that I labelled his albums as country initially, was because I backed away from the difficult task of correctly labelling them all. So actually I welcome improvements to those genres (in fact I welcome any improvements to those GC album pages, at this point they're nothing more than stub-articles to be honest). And to be totally clear here: no I don't think Glen Campbell is (just) a country artist. Lumdeloo (talk) 10:12, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I am glad to see this discussion proceeding. I think you both have good points. I'm not an expert on music, but it seems to me that GC's work spans genres--I was never a fan, but I heard a lot of him while growing up in Nashville. Our personal opinions are not good sources for articles. I reviewed some of the discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard archives, and it seems that Allmusic is not considered all that reliable a source, but can be used if no better sources exist. We do use charts as a bar for notability (if a song has charted, it is generally considered notable), so I think use of charts is a good way to go. Certainly any reviews published in newspapers and magazines can be used as sources. I don't think we can use the label a record was published by to determine a genre. But these are just my opinions. One suggestion I do have is that we can list a given song/album as belonging to multiple genres, and that might be the solution here. In casting about on Google's news archives, I see that he is variously described as a country or pop star, and some sources refer to his interest in Jazz and Blues. Sources such as this one could be very helpful. One interesting trend is that I often see him characterized as country, but his work characterized as pop, but I am not sure if that is meaningful. A key point here was made by Transporterman above--we don't require sources for genres, but we do use them to resolve disputes, so turning to sources is appropriate if you disagree. Also, if you have a library close by, it might be worth a visit, sources do not have to be online to be used here. If you cannot reach consensus, let me know--I'll watch this page, but you all will be working in a variety of places. I have no authority, I'm not an admin, but I would be happy to make some suggestions as what venues you all might use to resolve issues. The main thing is that you communicate with other editors on the relevant talk pages about the reasons for your edits, if you haven't read WP:BRD, please do, it is very helpful in outlining expected behaviour. I hope this is somewhat helpful. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Lumdeloo, if we used Glen's Autobiography as a general source, it would rule out much of the "Country" genre; I believe he stated that he doesn't believe himself to be a Country performer. There are quotes on the back of certain CD reissues where Glen dismisses the Country genre as well. As a musician myself, I'd argue most of his output was Folk; there was no sixties Pop sound, IMO. You could easily label the albums as Pop, but sixties pop versus seventies pop versus eighties pop versus nineties pop are all different. For instance, one may consider Hall and Oates "Rich Girl" to be a Pop song, but the Bigger Than Both of Us album has several genres; mostly Rock. So, I'll take some free time to compile all the Glen quotes/info I can, when I can, and try to work with you to come to a decision. I must say, though, most sources will work in your favor, despite my disagreement with them. Hopefully this can be a fun collaborative project. --BuddyOfHolly (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

That sounds good. Please keep in mind that if sources differ, we often just document the controversy. GC himself would not be a reliable source for anything other than his opinions, but we can certainly say things like "Although often classified as a country singer, Campbell rejects that characterization" so long as we have sources. And if you all want to be more specific by saying 60's pop, I see no problem in doing that. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC)