Talk:Ojkanje/Archive 1

Archive 1

It's a Serbian tradition stolen by Croats because of geography and politics, but ethnically it's a Serbian tradition. Even the photo in the actual article shows the festival in Moštanica that has cyrillic writings, and we all know that Croats hate cyrillic and think it represents something non and anti-croat... Just use your head and open your eyes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.228.241.194 (talk) 17:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Serbianization-why?

It appears that user there is an attempt to include any tidbit possible to to insert any form of "Serbianism" to Ojkanje. Ojkanje is a style of singing originating in modern day Croatia and a staple of it's culture. Due to emigration and influence, it has spread to various places in Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia. The article is not about the latter.

These additions are disconcerting on many levels. They are cherry-picked sentences from vast pieces of work added abruptly into the article with no additional commentary explaining the meaning. These sentences stick out like a sore thumb: In Stanko Opačić Ćanica]]'s "Narodne pjesme Korduna" (Folk songs of Kordun, 1972), he says that the domestic ojkača was called "to sing in Cyrillic" or "Cyrillic-singing. What relevance is this? How does it add to the promotion of the Ojkanje page in lines with WP:Notability.

Another example: Ludvík Kuba is not a Balkan anthropologist or any kind of expert on Ojkanje and what it is. From what information I can gather, he traveled the area and recorded what he noticed. While his statements could be an interesting read, it is not to be considered fact. The source is not reliable or notable.

These addition all have one thing in common: they all attempt to remove any trace of Croats from Ojkanje and claim it as a solely Serbian Orthodox phenomenon. See, only Serbs sang it. It was called Cyrillic. Others have written about the local Serb population singing Ojkanje, so they must be the only ones. All other sources added show this is absolute ludicrous. It is documented that Croats and local Serbs and Muslims living in the Dalmatian and Lika area participated in Ojkanje.

--Jesuislafete (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The logic of Nenad Grujičić

Nearly all the "Ojkanje is Serbian" edits are from articles that quote Nenad Grujičić. He is not exulting facts, that for sure. A "Further reading" section was for some reason added with Nenad Grujičić as a source.

Here are some quotes by Grujičić which show he is not interested in discussing Ojkanje in any way but as a Serbian way. He takes great pains to avoid mentioned the "H" words (Hrvatska, Hrvati, etc.) and only mentions regions such as Kordun, Dalmatia, and Lika. And no, Croats do not nor have ever sang Ojkanje, just Serbs (translations by me in bold):

• "Želim da pokažem da je ojkača raskošna i vitalna duhovna tvorevina, posebna i neponovljiva - brend Srba Krajišnika."

I want to show that Ojkača is a proud and vital spiritual creation, special and unique - a brand of Serbs from Krajina "'

• "U brendiranju, ili kako se to već zove, po ko zna koji put, pokazalo su da su od srpskih mnogo brži hrvatski stručnjaci i, naravno, država"

In the branding, or however it is called, for who knows has shown that they are Serbian much faster than the Croatian experts and of course the state

• "ojkalica, pa čak i rera, je, jednostavno rečeno, srpska pjesma. ..."

Ojkanje and even the rera, are, to be said, Serbian songs

• "Nenad Grujičić je naučnim faktima pokazao da ojkanje pripada srpskoj pravoslavnoj tradiciji."

Nenad Grujičić has shown through the known facts that ojkanje belongs to the Serbian Orthodox tradition

• "Mali broj Hrvata koji ojka mogao je ovu vrstu pevanja da nauči od komšija Srba, ali je poznato da su se pre stotinu i više godina na tom delu Balkana Srbi na razne načine prekrštavali u rimokatolike. Time nisu zaboravili genetsku šifru ojkačkog pevanja.

A small number of Croats who have Ojkanje could have learned this type of singing from their Serbian neighbors, but it is known that a hundred or more years in that part in the Balkans the Serbs were re-Christianed into Roman Catholics. But in that they did not forget their genetic code of Ojkanje singing.

• "ojkača mora da tretira kao srpski kulturni brend, odosno, deo svetske kulturne nematerijalne baštine u kojem prioritetno učestvuju Srbi."

Ojkanje has to be treated as Serbian cultural brand, respectfully, part of the World Cultural Intangible Heritage in which priority associated with Serbs."

Here he shows perhaps his most despicable Greater Serbian ideas, subscribing to the Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag line idea:

• Oni znaju da je ojkanje srpska baština. Čak su u ranijem periodu zajedničkog života u Jugoslaviji podrugljivo i posprdno gledali na ojkanje kao na srpski amblem kulture. Autentične hrvatske pesme su u čakavskom i kajkavskom miljeu, daleko od ojkanja, zatim primorske pesme koje su preuzeli sa druge strane Jadrana, od Italijana.

(http://www.riznicasrpska.net/muzika/index.php?topic=985.0)

--Jesuislafete (talk) 05:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Please don't put "riznicasrpska" as reliable source. It is Pro-Serb and even Pro-Chetnick. It's like I put some stuff Ante Starcevic said as my source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.239.19.94 (talk) 17:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Ojkanje

To clear up exactly what Ojkanje singing is: it is described as, "the accepted term for the oldest layer of archaic traditional singing in Croatian regions which, according to the established ethnological division, belong to the Dinaric cultural region. This is a type of archaic singing which characterizes a specific shaking of the voice achieved through a special technique of singing ‘from the throat’." (UNESCO) As noted, it is unique in that it belongs to a very specific region and that is utilizes a very specific shaking of the throat.

User Sadko brings up ojkanje found in Užice, Serbia. Anyone with knowledge of folk singing knows that there are other similar genres of "oj" style of singing throughout the Dinaric range, which spans several countries and many ethnic groups. However, this does not mean those singing styles are ojkanje. This was addressed by the Report on the Satus of an Element Inscribed on the List of Intangible Cultural Heritage in Need of Urgent Safeguarding submitted to UNESCO in December 2018 by the Republic of Croatia, co-authored by ethnomusicologist dr. Joško Ćaleta:

"On the other hand, there have been some negative reactions: inscription of this musical phenomenon, where some individuals stated publicly that this tradition was stolen from them, without regard to the facts emphasised multiple times in the application regarding the phenomenon's belonging to the broader Dinaric (mountain) region and to all residents of this region. The confusion is made worse by a lack of understanding of the basic term 'ojkanje', which represents a technique instead of a particular musical genre." (p.4)

"This lack of understanding of communities attempting to take ownership of something that actually does not belong to them is a potential threat to the general understanding of what ‘ojkanje’ means - a term that clearly stands for an archaic vibrato technique that is a component part of different genres and styles of traditional singing in this region." (p.4)

Certain styles of singing found in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and Montenegro is Dinaric in origins and style, but not ojkanje. For this reason, I removed those lines. If interested, we can add a mention of other similar styles related to ojkanje to show the relationships along the Dinaric regions. --Jesuislafete (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

No, reliable sources say ojkanje (in western Serbia) not something "like ojkanje". UNESCO citation is okay but it reflects the fact that only one country made the custom an UNESCO candidate, which was later accepted. What are the quotes? There is no consensus so far and before we have anything like it, I would invite you not to push the content back. If you are not an expert on ojkanje (which I doubt) and can not provide RS for your claims - this version will stay. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Why don't you take your own advice and not push back? I have provided plenty of evidence that ojkanje does not originate outside the Dalmatian hinterland borders, yet you insist on pushing a pro-Serbian angle. I have provided sources by UNESCO which are easy to look up and read, unlike your source. The reason why "only one country" was included in UNESCO is because it is the only country where ojkanje originated. And I don't trust many Serbian "sources," especially when they have a political agenda, like in this case to discredit anything Croatian. I saw the articles written several years ago full of outrage from Serbia over "pure Serbian ojkanje" being "stolen by Croats", so I don't doubt that sources from Serbia would say the same thing.

And I don't need anyone's permission to edit articles. And are you saying only "experts" in a subject can edit? That would leave you out too, no? --Jesuislafete (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

1) No, the UNESCO source site did not say that. 2) It is your intepretation and pushing Croatia whenever possible. 2.1) Sorts of ojkanje are found all over former Yugoslavia. Deal with it. 3) You have removed sourced content with refs. while saying "I don't trust Serbian sources". It is utterly foolish and holds no ground. 3) There is no agenda here, just plain ignorance. 4) You have added a sentece about migrations without any reference. 5) No, I am not saying that, but I am saying that your edits on ojkanje are agenda driven and higly subjective. You claimed that I have an angle because I added a bit of text with refs. which you do not like, because it is nice to think (to have illusions that is) that a nation is specail in this way or another. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:27, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

1) I'm a little confused, did you read the UNESCO documents that are referenced? Here is one quote of ojkanje origin: "Ojkanje is the name given to the oldest known variant of archaic, traditional singing in Croatian regions which, according to the established ethnological division, belong to the Dinaric area – the regions of the Dalmatian hinterland, such as Ravni Kotari and Bukovica, the slopes of the mountain of Velebit, the regions of Lika and Kordun, as well as the area surrounding the town of Karlovac." 2) You say "Pushing Croatia whenever possible"....I don't see how that is really possible in a page about archaic Croatian singing, which is a Croatian UNESCO heritage, and located almost entirely within Croatian borders? It's kind of hard to escape... 3) I read your source, it does not mention ojkanje being native or local to Uzice unless I'm missing it. It does say: "Due to historical events and massive migrations in the Balkans, this tradition can be found in the Vojvodina region of Serbia, as well as western Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro." 4) I don't remember adding anything on migrations; looking back that line has been there for years, but I will add a citation 5) OK, you say my edits are agenda driven, but then yours are not? Is what you are doing different? I myself like to edit wikipedia articles on Croatian culture, history, and arts/media; it is in my talk page after all and not a secret. Despite our disagrements, I believe we can work better together than just warring. The sources given show that ojkanje originated in the areas mention, but there are still similar types of of singing found throughout the Balkans. Therefore, I thought it would be good to include the relationship between ojkanje to izvika found in western Serbia (and maybe other forms) to show the similarities of polyphonic singing from the Dinaric alps.--Jesuislafete (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

UNESCO is focusing info on Croatia because it is about that folk tradition from Croatia, not any other country. We could, but you are blinded and a victim of a media indoctrination i.e. mass hysteria about "Greater Serbia" and other stuff. That can be seen from the comment on this very same page. I will restore sourced content - because it is per sources and NPOV. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Sadko: It is archaic folk singing and you must present a scientific paper, book, ethnomusicolog(paper) that speaks about Ojkanje singing in "parts of Serbia". Newspaper article i.e. political pamphlet is not enough. Other source is descriptions of Svetlana Spajic(singer). So it's not RS probably original research. You can't go with these sources to UNESCO and claim that Ojkanje exist and in "parts of Serbia"(if you wanted). Not all singing from Balkan are Ojkanje singing and for that reason we need RS. Mikola22 (talk) 20:20, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much all singing with oj is ojkanje, to put it as simple as possible. It is nothing special or unique to some region but it is present all over the Balkans, including western and south-western Serbia. Svetlana Spajic is a notable author and musician, it is a RS and no original research (no argument was given explaining why in the world would you consider it original research). Politika is considered to be a RS on Wikipedia and it's the oldest newspaper in the Balkans with high-quality texts and journalists. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:39, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

First, please re-familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No personal attacks before telling another user "you are blinded and a victim of a media indoctrination"; I think we can all agree this does not foster a good environment. Second, provide scientific sources to support the claim that "all singing with "oj" is ojkanje". It is true that the archaic "oj" singing in the Balkans is related, but the term "ojkanje" is used to solely describe the Dalmatian/hinterland phenomena and to distinguish its unique throat-shaking and accompanying tone. Because if it is true that "ojkanje" is just all "oj" singing, then that means there is nothing inherently unique about it. --Jesuislafete (talk) 01:26, 30 December 2019 (UTC)