Talk:Oiran

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Oiran article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Sexology and sexuality: Sex work Mid‑importance

	Human sexuality portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Sex work task force (assessed as Mid-importance).

Japan: Culture / History Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 09:18, November 11, 2024 (JST, Reiwa 6) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is supported by the Culture task force.

This article is supported by the History task force.

WikiProject Japan to do list:

Peer review: None
A-class review: None

Featured content candidates –

Articles: None
Pictures: None
Lists: None

Good article nominations: Vinland Saga (TV series), Godzilla Minus One
Add requested images to articles that need them.
Pages for Deletion: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions.
Improve and expand Japan-related stubs.
Create some requested articles.
Help translate an article from the Japanese Wikipedia into English.
Assess unassessed articles

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Meaning of the word Oiran

I have now found in three separate books on the Yoshiwara (I can not find any about the Shinmachi or the Shimabara) that the word Oiran comes from "oira no ane" meaning "my elder sister". These kanji are correct according to my books but they don't give a direct meaning of the Kanji themselves. Would someone please doublecheck the meaning of these? PureLandAngel (talk) 20:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ja-WP suggests oira no tokoro no nēsan, meaning pretty much the same thing. It's definitely not oira no ani as you typed it though, because that would be "my elder brother"... Jpatokal (talk) 03:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tayu vs. oiran

The Japanese article for oiran states 「吉原の太夫を指している語であったが、太夫を含む高位の遊女を花魁と称するようになっていった。」, ie. that "tayu" (which means about a million different things) were originally restricted to Yoshiwara but the name was adopted to refer to the highest rank of oiran anywhere. Oiran's more generic and has been around longer, so it's the better name for this article. Jpatokal 10:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to what I've been reading, Tayu were registered in all three main pleasure districts, not just Yoshiwara (I'm doing further research to verify this). However, I will agree that Oiran is a better title for the article because it is a more generic term, whereas Tayu was a very specific rank. It is frustrating, however, that 'yujo' does not have its own article since the term encompasses all ranks of courtesans/prostitutes.

69.108.139.170 17:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good to have an article for "yujo," with a separate article for courtesans that mentions that "oiran" was originally a Yoshiwara-specific term. It's awkward to discuss, say, the history of Shimabara courtesans in an article titled with a term that wouldn't have been applied to them in period. BenedictineMalediction (talk) 18:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

High importance?

This article was moved up to High Importance, but I don't think it is really justified. The Oiran is a somewhat obscure figure, and certainly not of world-wide notability the way High Importance articles are considered.

Any justification for High Importance? Otherwise I will lower it.

MightyAtom 03:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, personally I think it's pretty important, but then this subject fascinates me. Oiran, tayu, geisha and the artistic outpouring from the pleasure districts of Japan really did more to shape Japan than many people want to recognize because of the political incorrectness of it all. It's also very difficult, in my opinion, to have a true understanding of Geisha without having a grasp on the courtesans.

I really think this article needs some work. Tayu and Oiran are used interchangably here, and technically they are not the same thing. Oiran as a specific class of courtesan didn't even exist until -after- the last Tayu retired in 1761. Oiran and Tayu were both the highest class of courtesan but from different periods of time. There are enough differences between the two that if one wanted to be nitpicky, it could be argued that each deserves its own article.

Kookykrisp 05:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that you can improve the article! It definitely needs work, but I don't know enough about it to do the job it deserves. Still, to the world at large the Oiran is not on the same level of importance/familiarity as the Geisha. I am going to drop this to a lower-level of importance. MightyAtom 03:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

kookykrisp here - I lost my password and such so I have to create a new account. I am still working on this article, but what a mess I am finding. I can find leads to what I want to explain, but the info is simply NOT available in English! I wish I spoke Japanese because I could prove just how important the Oiran and Geisha were to the development of the culture of Japan. I even found some hints but no proof that during the 1500s there was a big scandal revolving around a prostitute who was believed to be Amaterasu/Kwan Yin/Maitreya/Christ. I wish wikipedia paid for research. I know I sound nutz, but truly I have found anecdotal hints of very strange goings on behind the cherry blossoms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.123.202 (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ukiyo-e print a male kabuki actor?

The ukiyo-e print illustrating this article certainly looks like a depiction of a male to me. Is it not rather a picture of an actor playing an oiran on stage rather than an actual oiran? If so, perhaps the caption should be altered.Writtenright 02:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Writtenright[reply]

You are probably right. It was difficult to find a non-copywrited image for this article, so this is what was used. Feel free to alter the caption. MightyAtom 03:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Firefly-verse Companions

I edited the note about the Firefly-verse Companion caste, because the original wording stated it was "based on" this, this and that of the oiran. This very strongly implies - in fact all but states - that the Companion caste is only based on that of the oiran. In reality, looking at the Companion class in the series and realizing that it's supposed to exist in a culturally melded future, you can see that while it bears an extremely strong resemblance to the oiran class (they even have tea ceremonies), it's not identical, and from a writing standpoint, it's probably an amalgamation of oiran/geisha (in fact, I'd argue the writers were more likely thinking "geisha", because they were all westerners and the oiran is practically unknown in the west compared to the geisha, and is just close enough in concept that many westerners might confuse the two) and various other historical classes of courtesans, entertainers and prostitutes, including several much more ancient priestess-prostitute classes - one ancient group of which whose name even translates to "companion". Unless Joss Whedon has stated explicitly that the Companion class is "based on" oiran explicitly, we cannot state categorically that is "based on" the oiran. I did, however, not remove the reference as I think it's notable and relatively accurate given the description of oiran in the article. Instead I just tweaked it to reflect that there was "strong resemblance" instead of it being the (implicitly sole) inspiration for it. Runa27 23:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great thanks! That works a lot better! MightyAtom 06:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For your info

For those who can find citations in English eventually: http://unreliable-source.referata.com/wiki/Main_Page

Conservative intimacies?

"Tayū, unlike geisha, also offered conservative intimacies.": does that mean something obvious? It's pretty opaque to me. What's a conservative intimacy? As opposed to...? A liberal one? Is that a euphemism for something? Orbst (talk) 23:34, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it means that sex was sometimes involved, but that they could afford to be somewhat choosy, and only do things in their own way and on their own terms (unlike lower-level prostitutes). AnonMoos (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oiran/Tayū Contradiction

In the last paragraph on oiran in History, it says "The last oiran record was in 1761." However, under tayū, it says, "In Yoshiwara, tayū went extinct and were replaced by oiran in the 1760s." If the last oiran recorded was in 1761 and were essentially already replaced by the Geisha at that time, how could they be a replacement for tayū?162.194.216.21 (talk) 23:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed it. The last tayū in the Yoshiwara retired in 1761, but there were oiran for at least a century and a half longer. BenedictineMalediction (talk) 14:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Title capitalization

Shouldn't we use "Rise to prominence" instead of "Rise to Prominence"? Sofia Koutsouveli (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Oiran. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110321205754/http://www.kansai-u.ac.jp/Fc_let/colomn/colomn41.html to http://www.kansai-u.ac.jp/Fc_let/colomn/colomn41.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Media

I've discovered a similar image used on other pages, perhaps an editor is interested in merging information?

1.

File:Oiran ca. 1920s.jpg with

Description English: Oiran in Japan in 1917 Date 1917 Source Library of Congress Author Bain

The following pages on the English Wikipedia use this file (pages on other projects are not listed): Oiran

The following other wikis use this file:

Usage on ca.wikipedia.org Oiran Usage on fa.wikipedia.org اوئیران Usage on id.wikipedia.org Oiran Usage on vi.wikipedia.org Oiran

2.

File:Oiran in Japan in 1917.jpg

Description English: "~~Geisha girls~~" An oiran with attendant girl, ca. 1920s Date Unrecorded

The following other wikis use this file:

Usage on fi.wikipedia.org Käyttäjä:Pitke/Kitsuke Usage on fr.wikipedia.org Oiran Usage on it.wikipedia.org Oiran

(Flagrant hysterical curious (talk) 16:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC))[reply]