Talk:Oh Maman !

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"Oh Maman!"

@Sims2aholic8:

Firstly, on the English Wikipedia, spaces before exclamation and question marks are removed. I don't know where to find the guideline, but I just know they are removed.
Secondly, the cover art and 99 percent of the articles I've found on the net and the French Wikipedia all say "Maman". And that is not ungrammatical. Cause if the word "maman" is used as a proper noun, it needs to be capitalized.

--Moscow Connection (talk) 11:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rules for capitalization:

--Moscow Connection (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Moscow Connection: I suggest you read up on MOS:FRENCHCAPS, which is the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style for how to capitalise French language articles. Within it it clearly states that only proper nouns and the first word of titles should be capitalised (with some exceptions, of which none of apply in this case). As "maman" is not a proper noun it should be in lower case. Additionally, within French orthography, specifically within France and Belgium, exclamation marks, questions marks and other characters require a non-breaking space before the punctuation mark (see French orthography#Punctuation). While this is sometimes ignored outside of these countries it doesn't make it any less correct, and just because we are on the English Wikipedia doesn't mean it shouldn't also be followed for article titles here. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. I suggest you don't rush and look at my links and think. I'm sorry, but I know I'm right. Here, "Maman" is used as a person's name, and it is a proper noun.
2. I remember seeng some guideline that said to ignore the spaces. And I think it makes sense. --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will concede that in this case "maman" could be considered a proper noun, so capitalising it here would be appropriate. However it is a French song, with a French title, and even the article on the French Wikipedia contains the non-breaking space, and the same is done for other French songs on English Wikipedia, so why make an exception here? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I won't undo your edit, but I'm almost sure there was some guideline that instructed to get rid of the spaces. --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:36, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Sims2aholic8: I won't undo your edit cause I would be happy if you decide to go on some kind of crusade fixing French, Italian, and especially Spanish titles. (I have tried to rename some Julio Iglesias song articles, and sometimes random people reverted me and didn't want to listen.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:36, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Sims2aholic8: I have found this:

Punctuation of Foreign Titles
When a foreign title is included in an English-language context, the following changes are permissible: a period between title and subtitle may be changed to a colon (and the first word of the subtitle may be capitalized); guillemets may be changed to standard quotation marks; and any space between a word and a mark of punctuation that follows may be eliminated. Commas should not be inserted (even in a series or before dates) or deleted, nor should any other mark of punctuation be added or deleted.
(The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th edition, pg. 533
— https://www.cals.iastate.edu/calsonline/issue/1167

Also, the Chicago Manual of Style gives a list of examples (here) that includes "L’Apollon de Bellac: Pièce en un acte". There's no space before ":". --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Moscow Connection: That's interesting stuff, I'm sure however that there are a multitude of different style guides available from different organisations. I've not seen anything within the English Wikipedia's MoS one way or the other regarding how to approach this topic, and given there are various ways that we can approach this I opted for staying consistent with what I've seen with other French song titles, as well as Eurovision song titles in French, which is to retain the spacing before the punctuation mark. I don't believe there is any "right" way or "wrong" way to approach this in English, but I think that staying consistent here is important, so I would support keeping the spacing but I am also happy to have a wider discussion, either here or at WikiProject Eurovision about how best to approach this going forwards. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]