Talk:Ode to Joy/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

"Freude" vs. "Freiheit"

As I noted in my comments re: another discussion above, I think this article should either a) confirm/refute the often-circulated theory/rumor/urban legend that Schiller originally wrote "An die Freiheit" and "Freiheit, schoener Goetterfunken," etc. or at least b) note the existence of the debate and list the better-respected arguments on each side along with reputable sources in each side's favor, preferably sources that contain their own further documentation. If you have documented and verifiable information to offer, please feel free to reply below and include citations to your sources so that we can discuss their reliability. 68.10.1.154 (talk) 18:25, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The page should probably say that only a single author is source of the disputed "Freiheit version" claim, see Rudolf M. Beethoven's "An Die Freude" and Two Mysterious Footnotes. Beethoven Newsletter, 1990;5(2):29-33 . ~~Johannes A~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.202.97 (talk) 07:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Interpretation

Here's a discussion with editor Breymayer/de:Reinhard Breymayer from my talk page so other editors can chime in.

(included discussion)

Influence of Friedrich Christoph Oetinger and Philipp Matthäus Hahn on Schiller's Ode to Joy; connection between Philipp Matthäus Hahn and the Vienna families Thun und Hohenstein and Lichnowsky (patrons of Mozart and Beethoven), newly detected

Dear Michael Brednarek, thank you very much for your critical attention. But my statement about the influence of the love theology of the famous pietist Friedrich Christoph Oetinger (1702–1782) and his pietistic friend and vicar Philipp Matthäus Hahn (1739–1790) on the love philosophy of Friedrich Schiller may be misunderstood. These influences on Schiller and especially on Schiller’s entire Ode to Joy aren’t marginal but large and essential. My contribution demonstrates on 35 pages Oetinger’s doctrine (influenced by Leibniz’s and Clüver’s astronomy teacher Erhard Weigel) and his own influence. The verses „Brüder – überm Sternenzelt/ muß ein lieber Vater wohnen“ are a special example for the evidence of the pietistic influence. In the case of Oetinger it is known, but the important influence of the love theology of the astronome and pastor Philipp Matthäus Hahn not only on two verses is unknown and newly detected by me. A removal of my contribution would be a retrograde step. A book of Ivo Cerman (Budweis) was helpful: Aufklärung oder Illuminismus? Die Enzyklopädie des Grafen Franz Josef Thun. Stuttgart 2015. Cerman detected the influence of Friedrich Christoph Oetinger on Franz Joseph count von Thun und Hohenstein, owner of a palace in Vienna. His wife, Maria Wilhelmina countess von Thun und Hohenstein née countess von Uhlfeld, owning a musical salon in the palace was a well-known patron of Mozart and Beethoven, the son-in-law Karl Alois prince of Lichnowsky too. My own detection is the connexion between Oetinger’s friend Hahn to Franz Joseph count von Thun und Hohenstein, a nephew of Joseph Friedrich Wilhelm prince of Hohenzollern-Hechingen in Hechingen. Both, the count and his uncle ordered an astronomic machine constructed by Hahn (formerly pastor of Onstmettingen near Hechingen) and produced by his coworker Philipp Gottfried Schaudt in Onstmettingen. I have an experience of 50 years in pietism research, 48 years in research about Oetinger, and my research about Hahn is well-known too (cf. my well-endowed award “Philipp-Matthäus-Hahn-Preis” proposed by the president of the Tübingen University for the years 1989 and 1990). My researches are accepted by prominent specialists. Finally: we may modify, explain, clarify something.Breymayer (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Reinhard Breymayer,

I don't see how any of that lengthy and obscure material is of any interest to listeners of Beethoven's Ninth or to readers of the Wikipedia article on it. As for Schiller's poem: I think you overestimate the ordinary reader's interest in love theology, love philosophy, pietism, and your assertions about their influence on "An die Freude". An incisive assertion supported by a concise citation might be useful to a deeper understanding of Schiller's text, but I suggest that your version of Ode to Joy was unnecessarily detailed (and, like this section here, used extravangantly long section headers). In short: less is more. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:50, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Sir,

the opinion of the “man in the street” or the ordinary reader or listener cannot obligate scholars of rank nor good experts nor excellent connoisseurs. You are perhaps a remarkable generalist but not an exstanding expert on Friedrich Schiller nor Ludwig van Beethoven. Therefore we must make the conclusion: the deletion of Reinhard Breymayer’s text about the newly detected influence of the astronome and pastor Philipp Matthäus Hahn, formerly a vicar of Friedrich Christoph Oetinger, upon Friedrich Schiller and Hahn’s newly detected connection to the Vienna musical scene of the families Thun-Hohenstein and Lichnowsky is retrograde step more than stagnation. Famous Schiller experts as Hans-Jürgen Schings, Wolfgang Riedel and Peter-André Alt underline Schiller’s philosophy of love and the influence of the famous pietist Friedrich Christoph Oetinger on this philosophy. We may recognize indeed a trace of your critic by clarifying somewhat for the generalists and for the man in the street. Greetings, Reinhard Breymayer

Literature

a. Hans-Jürgen Schings: Philosophie der Liebe [Philosophy of love] und Tragödie des Universalhasses. „Die Räuber“ im Kontext von Schillers Jugendphilosophie [Schiller’s youth philosophy] (I). In: Jahrbuch des Wiener Goethe-Vereins. Hrsg. von Herbert Zeman, vol. 84/85 (1980/1981), pp. 71–95, here especially pp. 80 f. to Oetinger und Karl Friedrich Harttmanns (ib., note 45, to Reinhard Breymayer’s research).

b. Wolfgang Riedel: Die Anthropologie des jungen Schiller. Zur Ideengeschichte der medizinischen Schriften und der „Philosophischen Briefe“. (Würzburg) 1985 (Epistemata. Würzburger Wissenschaftliche Schriften. Reihe Literaturwissenschaft, vol. 17 <1985>). Vorher Phil. Diss. Würzburg Wintersemester 1983/1984. – Zur Kette der Wesen cf. 76 with notes 68 f., pp. 114–121, here esp. pp. 114 f. with notes 56–58; p. 229 with note 113. Cf. also pp. 182–198: „Liebe gleich Schwerkraft. Bausteine zu einer Metapherngeschichte“, here pp. 194 f. with notes 206–212 to Jacob Hermann Obereit; pp. 198–203: „Theosophie“, here esp. pp. 200 f. with note 242 to Oetinger and Detlev Clüver;, ib, pp. 201 f. with notes 248–253 to Jacob Hermann Obereit. Riedel mentions often Oetinger and ib., p. 81 in the note 96 (pp. 80 f.) to p. 80, also [Philipp Matthäus Hahn]: Fingerzeig […]. Winterthur 1778. [Riedel, indeed, does not know the connection between Hahn and Schillers’s philosophy nor the connection between Hahn and the Vienna musical scene.]

c. Peter-André Alt: Schiller. Leben – Werk – Zeit. (München 2009) (C[arl] H[einrich] Beck’sche Reihe), vol. 1. (Mit 28 Abbildungen.) (1759–1791), pp. 108–110 with note 121 zu pp. 108 f. on p. 677; pp. 232. 299; vol. 2. (Mit 22 Abbildungen.) (1791–1805). Cf. especially vol. 1, p. 56 with note 54 on p. 676: „Karl Friedrich Harttmann, der als Bebenhausener Klosterschüler in enge Verbindung mit Oetinger trat, trug seit 1774 im Rahmen des von ihm versehenen Religionsunterrichts Prinzipien der pietistischen Lehre an der herzoglichen Akademie vor. Daß sie Spuren auch beim jungen Schiller hinterließ, demonstriert seine Liebesphilosophie [philosophy of love], die man als weltlichen Gegenentwurf zur Idee der Gefühlsgemeinschaft des Gläubigen mit Christus betrachten kann.“

d. Rüdiger Safranski: Friedrich Schiller oder Die Erfindung des Deutschen Idealismus. (München, Wien 2004), about „die große Kette der empfindenden Wesen“ in der philoso-phischen Tradition und besonders in Scbillers Liebesphilosophie [Schillers’ Philosophy of love] ib., pp. 86–89. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.30.63 (talk) 21:03, 14 August 2016 (UTC) Breymayer (talk) 22:41, 14 August 2016 (UTC)Breymayer (talk) 02:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I believe this is of no relevance to Beethoven's 9th. Whether it is of interest, and in which form and to what extent it should be included here, should be determined by wider input. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Michael Bednarek, please, read the Wikipedia articles Maria Wilhelmine von Thun und Hohenstein and Karl Alois, Prince Lichnowsky. The research about connections and influences are helpful for the understanding of works, not only the very important research about the structure.Breymayer (talk) 11:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

The newly detected facts and connections are interesting for the history of the European Anthem (the Anthem adopted by the European Union and Council of Europe) based on the final movement ("Ode to Joy") of Beethoven's 9th Symphony.

On 2016-04-18 Walter Zampieri sent many thanks to Reinhard Breymayer for his letter to European Commission's President Jean-Claude Juncker about pietism research, especially the love theology of Philipp Matthäus Hahn. "Wir wünschen Ihnen weiterhin viel Erfolg bei Ihrer Forschung." ("We wish you much continued success in your research.") Walter ZAMPIERI, Head of Unit, European Commission, DG Education and Culture, Unit Cultural Diversity and Innovation J-70 02/232; B-1049 Brussels/Belgium; Tel.: +32 2 299 8974; Facs.: Walter.Zampieri@ec.europa.eu .Breymayer (talk) 09:27, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Breymayer (talk) 09:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

The people at the European Commission are very kind, considering that "There are no words to the anthem; it consists of music only." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

There is a interference inter poetry, verbal rhetoric and musical rhetoric. Cf. p. ex. "wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt", the pietistic term "Sanfmut" (gentleness) and the musical term "dolce".

In Beethoven's library you can find some pietistic works or works influenced by pietism, p. ex. of Philipp Matthäus Hahn's close friend Christian Friedrich Daniel Schubart: Ideen zu einer Ästhetik der Tonkunst, Degen, Wien, 1806,

Karl Philipp Moritz: Götterlehre oder mythologische Dichtungen der Alten, 4. unveränd. Aufl., Schade, Berlin, 1816, or

Johann Michael Sailer, representant of the Catholic Christian revival or revivalism (influenced by Enlightenment and protestant Pietism): Sprüche-Buch. Goldkörner der Weisheit und Tugend. Zur Unterhaltung für edle Seelen, Grätz, 1819; Kleine Bibel für Kranke und Sterbende und ihre Freunde, 3. verbesserte Auflage, Grätz, 1819, or

Friedrich Matthisson: Lyrische Anthologie, Zürich, Wien, 1804–1808. Myself, I have contributed somewath to the reconstruction of Beethoven's library. The library of the Beethoven-Haus Bonn has acquired my publication; some Beethoven specialists are acquainted with my publication:

Reinhard Breymayer: Freimaurer vor den Toren des Tübinger Stifts: Masonischer Einfluss auf Hölderlin? In: Tubingensia: Impulse zur Stadt- und Universitätsgeschichte, Ostfildern 2008, S. 355–395. The article takes in consideration Matthisson's influence on Beethoven.

Beethoven owned also Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre, Unger, Berlin 1795–1796, a work influenced by pietism. Goethe and Carl August Duke of Sachsen-Weimar and Duke of Sachsen-Eisenach visited the pietistic teacher Israel Hartmann in Ludwigsburg and the pietistic pastor Philipp Matthäus Hahn in Kornwestheim on 1779-12-15,

Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstock: Werke, Traßler, Troppau und Brünn 1784–1786, influenced particularly by quietism (and pietism).

Please, read

Beethovens Bibliothek wird rekonstruiert [Beethoven's library is reconstructed]. Biographische und werkbezogene Studien des Beethoven-Hauses berühren immer wieder Fragen zu Beethovens Denken und zum geistigen Umfeld des Komponisten. Welchen Einflüssen war er ausgesetzt? Wie hat er sich gebildet? Welche Maximen seiner Zeit hat er verinnerlicht? Beethovens intellektuelle Interessen zu erforschen, setzt voraus, alle Bücher und Musikalien zu eruieren, die der Komponist las, studierte, kopierte, exzerpierte, vertonte, besaß, entlieh, verlieh, verschenkte oder sich zum Kauf notierte. Eine lange Liste würde entstehen. Doch selbst der Kernbestand dessen, was Beethoven besaß, seine eigene Bücher- und Notensammlung, ist bisher nur in Umrissen bekannt. Beethovens Bibliothek soll nun als gemeinschaftliche Aufgabe rekonstruiert werden. Bibliothekare und Wissenschaftler steuern ihr Wissen bei, Antiquare und private Sammler gewähren besondere Konditionen bei der Erwerbung. Freunde des Beethoven-Hauses können sich an den Erwerbungskosten beteiligen, indem sie Buchpatenschaften übernehmen.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=57628&template=&_mid=57628

A current project is the reconstruction of Beethoven's own library to determine the composer's mind and way of thinking. The list of the books and music items from that it is known that the composer read, studied, copied, excerpted, put to music, lent and borrowed, gave away or intended to buy would be very long. However, even Beethoven's core belongings, his own book and music sheet collection, are only known partially. Therefore, the project tries to determine them more closely and bring them together at the Beethoven-Haus. Librarians and scientists contribute their knowledge and antiquarians and private collectors sell their books granting special conditions. By adopting books, friends of the Beethoven-Haus can also support the endeavour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beethoven_House&action=edit&section=30

Conclusion: The biographical informations about Beethoven, especially about his library, are important for the understanding of his musical biography and of his works.

Greetings, Reinhard Breymayer Breymayer (talk) 18:19, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Breymayer (talk) 19:17, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Written in

I believe, Schiller wrote this poem while he was in Leipzig and not while he was in Dresdan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.39.226.226 (talk) 12:21, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I think you're right. User:Bengalurumaga and I have changed it now. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:14, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Revisions table

1. Do we really need the table of revisions to the text? I'm finding it a bit awkward and pointless, but YMMV.
2. If we do need the revision table, do we really need the hidden comments? It seems utterly bizarre to have that kind of stuff going on there. This Talk page might be an appropriate space for them; having them concealed within the article itself seems colossally inappropriate.

Best to all, DBaK (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the table of revisions is indeed awkward and pointless. It should be removed, as should the hidden comments. We need an authoritative translation. For Schiller's poem, there's this (1851) by Edgar Alfred Bowring. Kalmus has a German/English choral score edition of the Ninth's last movement, which I don't have. I would recommend to stay away from William F. Wertz's (LaRouche movement) translation. A quick search found this. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Hesiod

Hesiod had also that writng twice mystical matter ,so i go so far he went in that prints , so the words go MUSE as SWORD /modern ;der Muse Schwert geteilt ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.211.135.128 (talk) 22:52, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I forgoten the MODE wail i was in greec Hesiod and the Gods i must ,set it is a Greec word! wee have luck just ther is an stanndart aicent greek , for scool i will try to form it ther just acient greek have a lot decent an epoch deiverences , the most goes about MODE i realate it as : From / in form off , like sort / as relation to that sitiation, susbtantiv inperfect . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.211.135.128 (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Alternative translation

I'd like to suggest the following translation which I think better captures both the sense and the rhythm of the original:

Joy, beautiful spark divine
Daughter of Elysium
We enter drunk with fire
Heavenly one your sanctuary
Your magic binds again
What custom harshly divided
All people become brothers
Where your gentle wing abides

Whoever achieved the great endeavor
To be a friend of a friend
Whoever has won a lovely woman
Let him add to the jubilation
Yes also whoever has just one soul
To call his own in this world
And who never could, should go
Weeping from this union

All creatures drink of joy
At the breasts of nature
All the good, all the evil
Follow her trail of roses
Kisses she gave us and grapevines
A friend proven in death
Lust was given to the worm
And the cherub stands before God

Gladly, as his suns fly
Through the heavens' glorious chart
Run brothers your course
Joyful like a hero towards victory

Be embraced millions
This kiss to all the world
Brothers, above the starry cover
There must dwell a loving father
Are you falling, millions?
Do you sense the creator, world?
Seek him above the starry cover
Above stars does he surely dwell.

Dianelos (talk) 07:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)