Talk:Obwarzanek krakowski

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Name

Obwarzanek is a disambig. But this article on pl wiki is under pl:obwarzanek. I think that what the article describes is not obwarzanek krakowski, but just obwarzanek. Yes, the city of Krakow is the center of its production and cultural spread, and it has registered the trademark for its region, but the product can be found elsewhere in Poland, virtually undistinguished bar for the name. See for example [1],[2] and in particular compare pictures at [3]. There's some more controversy over that [4], [5]. In the end I think the food described here should be called just obwarzanek, with a note that the most popular variety - indistinguishable in all but name and place of origin - is called obwarzanek krakowski. (If we do rename the article, we should also briefly mention pl:Obwarzanki odpustowe). Oh, here are some nice stats: [6] for your article, User:Kpalion. Also ping User:Poeticbent who is interested in Krakow-related topics. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's the Polish Wikipedia that got the name wrong? Of course, if you're buying an obwarzanek krakowski in Kraków, you will simply ask for an obwarzanek and you'll probably get what you expect. But if you ask for an obwarzanek in Warsaw, you'll get this! Your link to pl:Obwarzanki odpustowe actually confirms that there are other traditional kinds of obwarzanki outside of Kraków. In the first press article you linked to about the case against the producer of the obwarzanek Schuberta, the prosecutor also confirms that the obwarzanek krakowski is not the same as any other obwarzanek, so producing obwarzanki with a slightly different recipe, but without the geographical designation krakowski is not illegal. Therefore, I suggest leaving this article and the disambiguation page as they are. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:54, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For now I'll just quickly ping User:Halibutt: if I ask for obwarzanek in Warsaw, what will I get? I can say that at the very least obwarzanek in Katowice looks pretty much like the one in Krakow... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm not sure. If you ask for an obwarzanek in Warsaw, you expect the very same thing as elsewhere, be it in Kraków or in Wrocław. It's the other way around actually: many people also call them bajgle over here, which means you can ask for a bagel and get an obwarzanek, but not the other way around.

On the other hand, when asking for obwarzanki (mind the plural) you could also get something like this (not the typical bagel-like bublik), same as in every other part of Poland (Kraków included!). Finally, there's also this abomination that could be found on village fairs and in front of cemeteries everywhere in Poland, and they are also sometimes called obwarzanki...

All in all, I'm not sure there is any difference between those made close to Kraków and those manufactured elsewhere, but the regional name makes the title pretty unambiguous. //Halibu tt 11:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, Halibutt, could it be that "something like this" is the same as sushki (small, crunchy, mildly sweet bread rings eaten for dessert)? If yes, this could also be added to the obwarzanek disambiguation page. --Off-shell (talk) 21:23, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Off-shell: yup, looks similar and "mildly-sweet" is probably the best description there is. I guess that's the same thing. They aren't eaten as dessert over here though, rather as a snack or as a snack-for-kids (a different category altogether, which any parent would admit :) ). //Halibu tt 21:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, this sounds like the same thing. In fact, sushki are not really a dessert in Russia and Ukraine (e.g. you will not be offered sushki in a restaurant after a meal), but also rather a snack or something to have with tea at home. --Off-shell (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, to summarize: there's no doubt that bagels, bubliki, sushki and various kinds of obwarzanki all belong to one family of ring-shaped breads. The terminology, as is usual in the culinary sphere, is quite vague, with various terms, like "obwarzanek", "bajgiel" or "precel", being used interchangebaly to some extent. That said, obwarzanek krakowski is distinct and unique enough to merit its own article. It also happens to be pretty well defined in an EU regulation. "Obwarzanek" may be ambiguous, but "obwarzanek krakowski" is not. If someone wants to expand Obwarzanek from a disambiguation page into a full-blown article about a class of ring-shaped breads that are parboiled before baking, that's great. But Obwarzanek krakowski should remain a separate article about a specific, strictly localized, subclass thereof. There's no point moving it to Obwarzanek, just as there's no point merging Champagne into Sparkling wine. — Kpalion^(talk) 22:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support keeping the current name. Obwarzanek krakowski is distinctly different from all other breads mentioned. It is always twisted, always salty (usually sprinkled with rock salt), and always covered with poppy seeds. None of the other bread rings (i.e. obwarzanki) look and taste the same. — The only thing I do not understand is why User:Kpalion created his misleading disambiguation page lumping "obwarzanek" with completely different bread (bublik: singular i-link, but a puzzling choice among so many) which kind of feels similar but is not the same by any stretch of the imagination. There's nothing like obwarzanek krakowski on the go, when you're running for the nearest tram stop in old town Kraków. The name of this page however, could be simplified to just obwarzanek. Poeticbent talk 03:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a bublik is different from an obwarzanek krakowski. That's why I've split the Obwarzanek krakowski off Bublik. But it also happens that bread rings that are very much like bubliki or sushki are referred to as "obwarzanki" in some parts of Poland. And this is why we need a disambiguation page. Actually, Obwarzanek was a redirect to Bublik until a few days ago, when I turned it into a disambiguation page. As I've written above, an obwarzanek without any adjectives is a broader claass of ring-shaped breads than the obwarzanek krakowski, which has a more narrow definition, therefore, they should remain at separate pages. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:40, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No picture of salty obwarzanek

I just realized we have no picture of Oobwarzanek with salt. I won't be able to do it myself (abroad), so maybe one of you can do it? Ping User:Kpalion, User:Halibutt, User:Poeticbent? Anyone in Poland and feeling like a snack? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do the next time I'm in Kraków. The problem is, I don't really like the salty ones. — Kpalion^(talk) 15:46, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]