Talk:Oakdale, Caerphilly

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Welsh name of Oakdale

I wasn't sure exactly whether this kind of thing is meant for the talk page, but I think it's a relevant discussion to the article, so if anyone reads this and thinks there's a more appropriate place for it, please correct or redirect me.

I have recently edited this article to remove 'Rhiw Syr Dafydd' as the Welsh name for Oakdale. We can see from old OS maps that this was the name of the settlement in the area before Oakdale was built, but there is no evidence I can see to show it is still the Welsh name for the area. Instead, Caerphilly County Borough's Welsh-language website and the Welsh Language Commissioner both give the name as 'Oakdale' in Welsh, and that's all that's on the road signs in the area if you go on google maps. The old name still crops up locally, as historical names often do, such as in the road names 'Rhiw Syr Dafydd Hill' and 'Syr-Dafydd Avenue', as well as the name of the local English-medium Rhiw Syr Dafydd Primary School. Interestingly, the local Welsh-medium school is called Ysgol Gymraeg Cwm Derwen, with Cwm Derwen meaning 'oak valley' in a clear calque of the English 'Oakdale'. There is also 'Cwrt Cwmderwen', a block of housing in Oakdale which also contains the village library.

So Rhiw Syr Dafydd (which translates as Sir Dafydd's Hillside) is no longer the Welsh-language name for this village. Going by local references, the modern coinage 'Cwm Derwen' has just as much or little a claim to the title. It seems like there are some instances where people have been a little over-zealous in calling an old name that is no longer in use the 'Welsh name' for a place, such as in the page for Nelson, Caerphilly which I also recently edited. In some cases there is documented disagreement on the currency of a Welsh place name, such as New Brighton / Pentre Cythraul, but it is a fact of history that most of Wales has been very anglicised that many Welsh place names have been displaced. I myself do hope that more Welsh names can be preserved and used, but of course Wikipedia must reflect the current reality. Mr Cadno (talk) 23:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr Cadno, fair enough, makes sense as "Oakdale" appears to also be used and preferred in Welsh. It is indeed just "Oakdale" on bilingual signage. If "Rhiw Syr Dafydd" is a historic Welsh name for an older settlement, then makes sense for it to be moved to the body to allow more context. It was added to this article only a few months ago.

The Caerphilly Observer states

Though it can be seen translated sometimes as Cwmderi, Cwmderwen, Glyn-y-deri or Glyn-derwen, no Welsh name officially exists for the village at the moment. The Welsh school in the area is named Ysgol Gymraeg Cwm Derwen.

Although if "Cwm Derwen", like "Pentre Cythraul", becomes more used as an alternative unofficial (Welsh) name in the future then the lead may be adjusted then, based on how much it is used.

So see your edit as justified, and it was a recent-ish edit too, thanks. Dank Jae 23:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]