Talk:Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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This article was nominated for deletion on March 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 March 2010. The result of the discussion was keep.

Talk page Guidelines

Do the silly comments of personal experience and accusations fall within the guidelines? Should they be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.132.1.23 (talk) 15:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will be removing all the BLP violations on this talk page per WP:BLPTALK. 81.159.252.167 (talk) 11:06, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Deliberate mis translations

His work contains many deliberate mistranslations intended to fool the Western audience eg his translation of female genital mutilation - why is this not mentioned? 82.31.101.249 (talk) 16:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2022

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Controversies

Keller has been accused of presiding over a system that enabled the abusive treatment and physical punishment of children [12]

The section "Controversies" should be deleted. The claims mentioned in the poorly written article that is referred to are unproven. The newspaper it was published in is insignificant and surely can be called tabloid journalism. The section can at least be called "poorly sourced", it is libelous and not worthy of an encyclopedia. Therefore, it violates the standards set by Wikipedia. Quark1000 (talk) 05:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:16, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Middle East Eye material

The Middle East Eye material has now been restored under a neutral heading with proper context. The allegations are characterized as such and attributed to the news organization. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I support the material. Or, at least, I have not yet seen a valid objection to the material. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Abdunibnabd:, instead of edit warring, can you please use this space to justify your edits? Talk page engagement during content disputes is the way to do things here. As it stands, there is consensus for including the material, and you'll need to explain why you removed it in order to change minds or persuade others. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Abdunibnabd, any response to the above? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:02, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification, @Iskandar323 and @Firefangledfeathers. I support the inclusion of the Middle East Eye material as well. The allegations are significant and well-documented in reputable sources, and providing proper context is crucial for a balanced view of the topic.

To further support the inclusion, I'd like to add that similar issues have been reported in other reliable publications, such as the article on Muslim Matters, which details the various forms of spiritual abuse and control within Nuh Keller's Sufi order. These sources collectively contribute to a comprehensive understanding of the controversies surrounding Keller's leadership.

Here are the references again for clarity:

"Spiritual Abuse in the Sufi Order Headed by Shaykh Nuh Keller" - Muslim Matters, https://muslimmatters.org/2022/06/06/spiritual-abuse-sufi-nuh-keller/
"Jordanian Sufi community led by US scholar faces child abuse complaints" - Middle East Eye, http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jordan-sufi-community-us-scholar-led-faces-child-abuse-complaints

Given the consensus for including the material and the importance of presenting a well-rounded perspective, I believe it's essential to keep these references in the article. If there are any specific objections to the material or its presentation, I'm open to discussing and addressing them here.

Stay Blessed,

Cheena Mum CheenaMum (talk) 22:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism need to be included

Hello everyone,

I would like to propose the inclusion of a new section on the Nuh Keller Wikipedia page that addresses significant criticisms and controversies regarding his leadership. This information is crucial for providing a comprehensive and balanced view of Keller's influence and the impact of his actions on his followers. The proposed section is based on credible sources and adheres to Wikipedia's guidelines for verifiability and neutrality.

Proposed Section: Criticism and Controversies

Keller’s leadership has faced significant criticism from a large number of his ex-Murids, who have brought to light various forms of spiritual abuse within his Sufi order. Allegations include extreme control over personal behaviors and enforcement of stringent religious practices without leniency. Reports highlight public shaming, psychological manipulation, and harsh disciplinary measures on children. Women, in particular, have reported severe scrutiny and control over their private and public lives by the two female authorities of the tariqah, Besa Krasniqi (wife of Nuh Keller, known as Umm Sahl) and Hedaya Hartford (known as Umm al-Khayr), along with Hartford's husband, Ashraf Muneeb. Their involvement has reportedly led to significant psychological distress among female followers. Additionally, the leadership's interference in personal relationships and marriages, often arranging unsuitable matches without parental consent, has caused rifts within families. These practices have reportedly led to significant emotional and psychological harm among followers, as detailed in investigative articles by Muslim Matters and other sources.

References:

"Spiritual Abuse in the Sufi Order Headed by Shaykh Nuh Keller" - Muslim Matters, https://muslimmatters.org/2022/06/06/spiritual-abuse-sufi-nuh-keller/
"Jordanian Sufi community led by US scholar faces child abuse complaints" - Middle East Eye, http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jordan-sufi-community-us-scholar-led-faces-child-abuse-complaints

Justification

Verifiability: The information is backed by reliable sources, including Muslim Matters and Middle East Eye, which are reputable publications known for their investigative journalism.
Neutral Point of View: The proposed section is written in a factual and neutral tone, presenting verified allegations without biased or emotional language.
No Original Research: The content is based on published sources and does not include any original research or unverifiable claims.

Including this section will ensure that the Wikipedia entry provides a well-rounded and accurate portrayal of Nuh Keller's influence and the significant issues reported by former followers. This aligns with Wikipedia’s mission to provide comprehensive and balanced information to its readers.

Thank you for considering this addition. I look forward to your feedback and hope to work collaboratively to improve the quality of this article.

Best regards.

Cheena Mum CheenaMum (talk) 22:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestions. My personal assessment of the article is that it does not meet the standards of WP:BLPTALK to merit a full summary beyond the reference. The recent edits to the page (which have since been reverted) appeared to also violate the policy of WP:NOR. - Moonlight2001 (talk) 03:52, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are misleading readers into thinking there are no criticisms of Nuh Keller. 82.36.148.48 (talk) 19:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]