Talk:Nubar Ozanyan

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Rank

If the sources don't say Ozanyan was a commander, why does the article say this? Konli17 (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Konli17: It is said that he "served as commander", as in, he commanded troops. Commander can be an official rank (akin to "General", "Brigadier", etc.) or a description of one's military role. Ozanyan commanded troops, thus he served as commander. He had not been officially appointed as "Commander". Applodion (talk) 11:39, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Konli17: and @Applodion:, there is no ranks in TİKKO, it's a type of Chinese pre-revolution PLA and still on guerrilla warfare level, commander is a given term to person who is basically commanding an guerilla unit and TİKKO is led by General Command (i.e. collective leadership), not by people.
Beyaz Deriili (talk) 12:52, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

About his name

His born name is Fermun Çırak, every old generation TKP (M-L) members who knows him can say that (for example, Serdar Can, a Kurdish-Armenian member of TKP (M-L) who arrested in 1983 after a clash and put in Diyarbakır Prison). Just as Lenin, his name used in revolution is more common and well known by world, still it doesn't change his actual name was Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov. I think you must take changes back @Applodion:.
Beyaz Deriili (talk) 12:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

And he was into bodybuilding (or halter can't remember know) sports before his refuge to France. His name can clearly be seen in the reports about his sports life as Fermun Çırak. For example: Cumhuriyet. October 25, 1979. Page: 10., Milliyet. August 17, 1980. Page: 11., Milliyet. August 18, 1980. Page: 11. etc.
I'm a Partizan sympathizer Turkish Maoist and now/follow people who knows him and if I wouldn't know what is his name, I wouldn't do these changes.
Beyaz Deriili (talk) 13:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

You need to add reliable sources for this. As I said, the sources you have provided so far do not directly say that it was his birth name. Do the Cumhuriyet articles make a connection between "Fermun Çırak" and "Nubar Ozanyan" - as in, do they say: "He was born as Fermun Çırak, and is also called Nubar Ozanyan"? If not, they do not help here. Do you have any reliable source which explicitly states that "Fermun Çırak" was his birth name? Applodion (talk) 13:21, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course newspapers does not mention about a thing like Nubar Ozanyan, because this name is a highly new, Fermun went to Europe after his career in sports ended (due to some reasons). And yes, I have published sources as I mentioned before by Serdar Can. Here is a Turkish quote:

Ülkemiz toprakları içinde doğuştan devrimci sayılabilecek niteliklere sahip olan Ermeniler, gene neredeyse doğuştan lakap kullanırlar. Ohannesler Orhan, Varujenler Varol, Hrantlar Fırat olarak yaşarlar. Bunun tarihsel kökleri zaten mevcuttur. Bir de günümüze kadar devam eden soylarının inkar ve red aşaması etrafında şekillenen “ötekileştirme” , “mahalle baskısı” vb. düşünüldüğünde bu insanların gerçek isimlerini kullanmadan niçin imtina ettiklerini izaha gerek duyamayacak bir şekilde anlayabiliriz.

(...)

Hatta hassasiyetler göz önünde bulundurularak Armenak ismi öne çıkarıldı. Özellikle Ermeni milliyetine mensup yoldaşların normalde zaten birden fazla isim kullanmalarına bir de örgütsel pratikler içinde kullandıkları isimler eklenince ortaya tam bir isim enflasyonu çıkıyor.

Mesela henüz dün şehit olan TKP/ML’ nin enternasyonalist üyesi Fermun Çırak için ortaya atılan isimler neredeyse bir elin parmaklarını geçti. Biz bile soyadı Devrimci olanı Demircioğlu olarak ya da Nubar Yalum [sic] özellikle Yalımyan olarak yazıyor, bunları garipsememek lazım.

Long story short, Serdar Can in this polemique explains the situation of why Armenians in Turkey mostly uses two names (family name and recorded name or name used in public) in example of Armenak Bakırcıyan-Orhan Bakır and with combination of their revolutionary activism their used names increases much more than usual. And in the last pharagraph says that (there can be some errors in translation due to my English, still yet this is the meaning of what he says): "For example names used in public for Fermun Çırak, [an] internationalist member of TKP/ML whose martyred in the near past, as for now almost more than the numbers of fingers in a hand. (...)"
As I said before @Applodion:, Fermun Çırak his born name, he used name Nubar Ozanian in his later phase of live as combination of Nubar Yalım/Yalimian [killed by Turkish intelligence in Netherland] and Andranik Ozanian. Please take changes back.
Beyaz Deriili (talk) 14:28, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for providing this source. I will adjust the article accordingly. Regardless, however, he is best known as "Nubar Ozanyan", therefor we should mainly use this name in the artice. Applodion (talk) 16:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I think born name must used first but anyways, at least it's clear his born name is Fermun Çırak.
Beyaz Deriili (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)