Talk:New York, Ukraine

Requested move 2 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

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Niu-York → New York (Ukraine) – Reliable English language sources Reuters (here) and Deutsche Welle (here (although their article contains a falsehood/urban legend about its founding (settlement was not founded by Germans))) do specifically name the settlement "New York" and not "Niu-York". Although it is only 2 sources, I think that the common English name of the settlement is "New York" and thus this article should be renamed "New York (Ukraine)" per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). But because I am not sure if 2 sources is enough, I am asking your opinion. Keep in mind that we are talking about a settlement in Ukraine of 10,000 people, so it is unlikely that a lot of English sources will be talking about it........ — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 12:27, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I just found out that Euronews also refers to the town as "New York" (here (but it also gets it wrong that the place was founded by Germans)). So I found 3 English sources for renaming this article to "New York (Ukraine)" now. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 12:43, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I do not support this initiative. All Ukrainian administrative-territorial units are written in English according to the Ukrainian transliteration of 2010. Except, unfortunately, Odesa and Chornobyl, which continue to be written in the Russian tradition. — Jafaz • Talk 22:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose  New York has not been demonstrated as the WP:COMMONNAME for this subject, “as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources.” Certainly not without comparing its frequency of usage to other spellings in reliable sources (books and articles), including Ukrainian Niu-York, LOC Ni͡u-Ĭork or Niu-Iork, scientific Nju-Jork, or other system for romanization of Ukrainian. (Good luck. Make sure you include sources referring to this town during its first century of existence, 1846–1951. On Google Maps it’s Niu-York, on Apple Maps Novgorodskoye, on NGIA’s GeoNames it’s Novhorodske) ¶ But obscure Ukrainian towns of 10,000 inhabitants generally do not have a “commonly recognizable name” in English, and according to WP:TRANSLITERATE and WP:UKR we default to the romanized name Niu-York. Despite a handful of “wow, New York in Ukraine” articles, this place has simply not been referred to by a significant number of English-language sources at all (including during the aforementioned first century of its existence as Niu-York). Yes, WP:NAMECHANGES says to prefer reliable sources written after the name change is announced, but in practice that has us taken years to confirm, not less than a week after the legal name change. ¶ Commonname only exists to serve the WP:CRITERIA. But in this case the current name better satisfies Recognizability: someone familiar with the subject will recognize it; Precision: Niu-York unambiguously identifies and distinguishes the specific subject without disambiguation, unlike New York which represents about about sixty; Consistency: Ukrainian romanization is used for 99.99% of Ukrainian place names, and anyone looking for Ню-Йорк, whether familiar with its Ukrainian name or official romanized name would naturally search for the spelling Niu-York (also contributing to Naturalness); and Conciseness: needs no disambiguation. —Michael Z. 22:09, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jafaz and per detailed examination of the issue by Michael Z. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per everyone's exhaustive arguments above—blindlynx (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jafaz and Michael Z - if this becomes WP:COMMONNAME, which realistically could happen, we should revisit this in the future. For now, it should continue to follow the proper Ukrainian transliteration, like all Ukrainian place names without a different common name. Cran32 (talk | contributions) 01:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just want to add that this is really bad propganda the settlements name is Novgorodskoye it was vast majority Russian speaking. The English verison of the name is Novgorodskoye. It was founded by Russians in the time of Katherine the great. This article is seemingly rewriting the actual situation with the town. It reads as incredibly bad propaganda. The name should be the actual name Novgorodskoye unless there is actual historical evidence the name was ever New York. I will tell you up front there is no way this was called New York in the Soviet era, and it was officially Novgorodskoye from 1951 to 2021 when it was rebuilt after WWII. It seems that people have taken a propaganda initiative to rewrite the town history and name.

The authorities like the traditional English spelling of the name of the city

At the entrance to the city are road signs "New York", not "Niu-York". Link: 1.--Ffederal (talk) 11:06, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

There was recently a consensus on the romanized spelling Niu-York, but I don’t feel strongly about it, since the city is, indeed appearing in a few news items with the native English spelling. Pinging participants to get a quick gauge of consensus: user:Yulia Romero, user:Jafaz, user:Roman Spinner, user:Blindlynx, user:Cran32.

But see also WP:UAPLACE#Disambiguation, which refers to the example of Donetsk, Russia, and WP:NCDAB, which prefers natural disambiguation over paramthetic disambiguation, and WP:PLACEDAB. I think the better title might be New York, Ukraine, for consistency. —Michael Z. 18:51, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

To put it mildly, according to the current national transliteration of the Ukrainian language, the correct inscription in the Latin alphabet is "Niu-York". "Niu-York" is reflected in Ukrainian identity card. This transliteration is used to write down all administrative-territorial units (villages, settlements, cities, hromadas, raions, oblast) of Ukraine. In the English Wikipedia in addition to Chornobyl, the former Chornobyl Raion and Odesa, Odesa Oblast, Odesa Raion and Odesa Hromada (Continue to transliterate from Russian). However, I will note that it became known from the media that the national transliteration will be changed soon.--Jafaz (Jafaz) 19:41, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

(User:Jafaz, what’s this about transliteration changing?) —Michael Z. 16:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

The head of the National Commission on State Language Standards, Orysia Demska (or maybe soon Demśka), said that by the end of this year the commission will start working on new rules for transcription and transliteration of the Ukrainian alphabet, which have not been changed since 2010. This applies, for example, to the Latin display of geographical names and names of citizens of Ukraine.[1]--Jafaz (Jafaz) 17:00, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Given that New York seems to have moved significantly towards WP:COMMONNAME since the previous consensus, as evidenced by the road sign too, I am more friendly to this title than I was last time around. While Jafaz makes a valid point, and both names make sense, I lean towards keeping it as is at New York (Ukraine). Cran32 (talk | contributions) 20:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

The form "New York, Ukraine" appears to be the most intuitive one, per Michael Z. Four-and-a-half months ago there was indeed consensus to use the transliterated form "Niu-York", thus obviating the need for disambiguation. However, in this particular case, an exception is warranted. With a name as indelibly ingrained in the world's consciousness as "New York", it does seem counterintuitive to continue using the exact English transliteration "Niu-York". As for the two competing forms of the main title header — New York (Ukraine) / New York, Ukraine — WP:UAPLACE#Disambiguation does point to the preference for New York, Ukraine, as indicated, again, by Michael Z. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:57, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I still also prefer the article name to be New York (Ukraine) per my 2 July 2021 arguments and the new ones presented above. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Niu-York

I am confused. I can see a discussion and a banner stating that "Niu-York" was NOT moved to "New York (Ukraine)". And yet the article is named "New York (Ukraine)". What happened? --Amakuha (talk) 08:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It looks like someone moved it after the discussion was over. While I think that's going against consensus and shouldn't have been done without another discussion, I believe this might fall under WP:SNOW - "New York" has become a WP:COMMONNAME in the intervening time, and I don't think a move-back would garner much support. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 16:28, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 24 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 06:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

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New York (Ukraine) → New York, Ukraine – Per WP:PLACEDAB, "With the names of cities, towns, villages and other settlements, the tag is normally preceded by a comma, as in Hel, Poland." HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support —Michael Z. 22:21, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support In ictu oculi (talk) 09:14, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• I would say it must be Niu-York per WP:UAPLACE.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:52, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• Note that the article was also moved away from Niu-York against #Requested move 2 July 2021 above. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:35, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  There was no formal RM, but an indication of consensus in #The authorities like the traditional English spelling of the name of the city, above. —Michael Z. 15:13, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• Well, the move against recent consensus preceded the creation of that section and only included a claim based on official naming, so Crouch, Swale is correct that it should not have been done that way and should have been sent to WP:RMUM at the time. Dekimasuよ! 05:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Closing comments: What a mess! See the target page history and discussions above. But hopefully this will bring stability. I think I should also note that WP:UAPLACE is an information page, not a policy or guideline, so the idea that it must govern this decision shows no understanding of the issues. In view of this I assess strong consensus here. Andrewa (talk) 06:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post move

I have been asked to clarify my closing comment that this post shows no understanding of the issues.

At the risk of splitting hairs, I did not say that the contributor shows no understanding of the issues. I try to discuss the content not the contributor, and this is a case in point. But obviously I was not clear enough on that in this case, and I apologise for any offence this caused.

As closer, I regarded this post as a !vote although not a formal one, but discarded it and thought it helpful to say exactly why I had done this, not just to be transparent regarding my reasoning but also because I thought the post in question was both misguided and misleading.

Everyone makes mistakes. I regard the contributor in question as an excellent contributor and administrator. Andrewa (talk) 02:57, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Andrewa. For the record, I want to add the clarification of my vote, taken from my talk page: I obviously know that the status of UAPLACE is an information page. A few sections up <my talk> page, I actually explain this in more detail. We still heavily use it though in the situations when there is no common English name of a locality. The consensus currently is that there are only three localities with common English names in Ukraine - Kyiv, Odessa, and Chernobyl (though perhaps now, with the increasing coverage, there are more - Mariupol for example, but these do not create trouble like Odessa does), plus I led Gurzuf through a RM a few years ago arguing there is a COMMONNAME. Now, the question is whether New-York / Nio-York has a common name in English. --Ymblanter (talk) 05:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

This is re-arguing the RM. I do not think this is the place for that. Andrewa (talk) 16:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

As I said, it is not my intention to re-argue anything. I do not disagree with the close. Ymblanter (talk) 10:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Who controls niu-York?

Who has control of it. Solidarityandfreedom (talk) 19:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

At this point, the central government. Ymblanter (talk) 05:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Demographics 65% Russian - but no Russian name

Demographics Russian 65.74% ; why is there no Russian name in the article? Bakhmutka (talk) 20:34, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

There was one for the old name, but removed 2021-02-03 [1] Bakhmutka (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

that's of the city's old name (novgorodske) Cononsense (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

New York liberated

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1576991771120136192 General Staff: Ukrainian army repels Russian attacks near 5 settlements. According to the General Staff, Ukrainian troops repelled Russian attempts to advance near the settlements of Maiorsk, New York, Zaitseve, Nevelske, and Pobieda, Donetsk Oblast. --Aphaia (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Etymology

The corresponding German page differs in the explanation of the etymology, claiming the name of the settlement to have been an homage to the settlement Jork near Hamburg. I don't have access to the source cited there, so I can't verify, but Jork does exist, and "nju" is a quite common variation of "neu" in local German dialects, so it sounds plausible. The sources cited in this English article are secondary in nature, and therefore might well be reporting a wrong folk etymology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clipka (talk • contribs) 09:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Both versions seem to be just-so stories. According to the source provided on the German page, German Mennonite settlers chose the name after Jork. According to the sources provided in the English version, one of the German Mennonite settlers chose the name New York because of his American wife. Both explanations are incompatible with the fact that German Mennonites arrived in 1889 (or 1892?), whereas the name New York or Niu-York seems to be documented as early as 1846. Unless someone can dig up better documentation for one of the claims, I suggest that both are removed. Hanno (talk) 13:36, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Why not include both, with the sources?  —Michael Z. 22:28, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Because two just-so-stories are no better than one just-so-story! The point is that both explanations seem to be contradicted by the historical evidence. Of course, the article may mention both stories and add that none of them can be true. (But then "Anecdotes" would be a more fitting heading than "History".) Hanno (talk) 07:27, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The stories are reported by WP:OR, while “none of them can be true” is WP:OR. There may be elements missing, partial inaccuracies, or something else we don’t understand about them. I would include them along with relevant known facts. —Michael Z. 15:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, the article makes claims that are logically incompatible. No original research is needed to see that the name of a place cannot have been invented by people who arrived there 43 years later. I cannot tell which of the statements is false (that the name has been documented since 1846, or that it had been given by Mennonites who bought the place in 1889), but (at least) one of them has to be. None of the current sources are original research, by the way. That's exactly why I believe the best solution is deleting the sentence "The wife of one of the founders was from the United States". Of the two sources provided for this statement, one does not mention this story at all, whereas the other makes an unsupported claim to this effect. However, another link (just a few lines later) describes this as an abandoned belief. Kind regards, Hanno (talk) 17:34, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The line about Scabeeva

The source for quotation of Scabeeva's line and hyperlink in the article that is used as a source (https://riafan.ru/23310825-skabeeva_vismeyala_poyavlenie_n_yu_iorka_na_ukraine) does not state that Scabeeva promised to rename the place anywhere.

The article quoted as source is also posted in 2021 and does not connect to full-scale Russian invasion circa 2022.

However, according to quoted article, she does state that "Ukrainian New-York will become a creb apple for Ukrainian government that they will not only bite, but also gulp" (pun on "Big Apple" and a Ukrainian saying "що не з'їм так понадкушую").

Please either remove sources, remove the quotation or find better sources. Daverok (talk) 21:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Undue anyway. Mellk (talk) 10:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

It is not an Ukrainian proverb. It is from an Ukrainophobic USSR-time Russian joke reflecting the stereotype of greediness for Ukrainians. A variant goes like this: "Will you eat 5 apples?" - Easily. Will you eat 5 kolograms of apples? - Yes. Will you eat 5 buckets of apples? - What I don't eat , I'll nibble." As one may guess, the progression of the amounts vary in joke variants. - Altenmann >talk 19:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)