Talk:Notable speakers with a New York accent

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This article was nominated for deletion on June 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On the AfD

This is a copy of what I just posted on the relevant Articles for Deletion page:

Strongly oppose

1. This article has been a long standing section of the New York Dialect article (several years?), and no one has ever proposed deletion of the section before.

2. Hence, I was surprised when first the section was precipitously deleted and then when it was cut and moved to a new article -- without any discussion on the Talk page, as WP:CIVIL would suggest.

3. I continue to believe that it makes sense as part of New York Dialect, because it provides exemplars of notable people (in the public eye) who speak New York Dialect -- giving indications of pronunciation, rhythm and other subtleties. However, perhaps a cross-link to a separate article is ok.

4. There is a major factual mistake in Ecoleetage's account. The user thinks that Bronx speaks differently than Brooklyn. However, a good deal of scholarship by Prof William Labov and others that there is a single New York dialect, predominantly spoken by white New Yorkers. This is extensively discussed in the main New York Dialect article. I am surprised that User Ecoleetage did not read it, and I am surprised as a non-native speaker of English (from his User page), that he is so ready to make pronouncements about such matters. I would hesitate to do so about Spanish pronunciation. The fact that the User did make this mistake shows the need for the main article and the exemplifying list of notable speakers.

Bellagio99 (talk) 14:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge back into New York Dialect

Merge: Now that WP:AfD is over, we have the situation of either letting Notable Speakers stand by itself or be merged back into New York Dialect. I suggest the latter, as the list and the main text cross-reference each other. Now that the list is more pruned and more supported by documentation (actually, I think audio links would be more appropriate here as a learning tool), I suggest it be Merged back into the spot which it occupied a week ago. I'd do it myself, but I think it is WP:Civil to wait a few days for other opinions, and in any event, I am taking my New York Dialect (and accent) on the road for a week's holiday. Bellagio99 (talk) 02:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support further pruning and merge - The list is too long to be useful now, and not all those listed are supported by references. Only referenced speakers should be listed, and the result merged back to the NYD article. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 16:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since there has been no further comment, I am going to be bold and prune the list to referenced speakers only. Feel free to revert or discuss here if there is no consensus for this. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 20:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge I've put the Merge template up at the top of the Notable speakers with a New York accent article. I've made the arguments before, but now that the list has been pruned and referenced, they are more cogent. This article and New York dialect fit better together than separately. I hope that you will agree or give reasoned commentary why not. Cheers, Bellagio99 (talk) 01:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bella and voices

Anyone who had ever heard Bella Abzug, knew that she spoke exemplary NY dialect. That's why it would be great if audio/visual clips would be linked to this article. Cheers, Bellagio99 (talk) 12:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dat's a great idear but I don't know hata do dat. It would be ideal if dere was some televised story about da dialect like dese articles I found. MrBlondNYC (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mrblond,

About your edits today, Belle Barth would be a great exemplar of an earlier generation. There are recordings of her speaking and telling jokes -- I heard them when I was a kid. I will try and find them.

Judith Merril was a good friend, and more notably the most famous science-fiction editor of her generation (she died at 75 10 years ago). She also appeared as "The Undoctor" on Canadian (and perhaps) American showings of Dr Who. There is a documentary about her life, What If..." in the public domain. I will supply the reference.

Thanks for all your work and your well-deserved Barnstar.

PS: By coincidence, the Marx Brothers' A Night at the Opera played on Turner Movie Classics last nite.

Bellagio99 (talk) 13:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a Barnstar but thank you for the kind words. Check your messages. MrBlondNYC (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now you have a Barnstar! But I messed up formatting: alignment. If you know how to fix, please do so. Bellagio99 (talk) 12:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should acting roles be included?

Are acting roles, in case of works of fiction (i.e., On the Waterfront, My Cousin Vinnie), appropriate for Notable speakers? The actor should be known for their line of work - not their impression of a New York accent. And besides, if it were but one part, is it "notable"? --Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 22:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't add them, and I hear what you say (pardon the pun). But I think both are warranted. Brando won an Oscar for his portrayal, in which his NY accent was a prominent part of his On the Waterfront role. ("I coulda been a contender.") Tomei's NY accent was an extra-ordinary plot point in My Cousin Vinnie -- it's why the local folks dislike her so.

PS: Weren't you the Deletionist who wrote "What a load of crap" about this list some weeks ago, as your editorial comment? Bellagio99 (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In every article and book about the NY accent I have come across, fictional characters are noted as examples. Archie Bunker is mentioned in almost every article about the NY accent as a prime example. Terry Malloy is listed in the article "Famous New York accents". MrBlondNYC (talk) 03:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that was me alright. IMPO, the way it was, it was rather poor. Unsourced, unreferenced and randomized. If you compare the list - how it was and how it is right now I think you'll agree with me that huge improvements have been made. Anway, back to discussion: I guess you're right! Acting roles are great examples for any accent or dialect. --Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 18:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Belle Barth

The record establishes her accent. The (deleted) book establishes her NY upbringing. I'll leave it to your discretion whether to revert. I can't help remembering the line that she and Sophie Tucker each used (and later by Bette Middler). "Shut your hole, honey; mine's making money." Bellagio99 (talk) 02:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re-Merged into New York dialect

I've merged this article back into a last section of New York dialect from whence it has come. The merge has been posted for comment for a week, and there were no negatives. This list and the NY dialect article fit well together, with the list providing concrete exemplification. The list is now shorter and much better documented. Bellagio99 (talk) 20:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]