Talk:Norwich University/Archive 1

Archive 1

Proposed move

It should be noted that a move of the page Norwich to Norwich, Norfolk cites this University as a reason. Go to the Talk page for Norwich for more info.

stat without source

Removed below statistic from article due to no source being provided. If a source is available please cite and add back to article:

"Currently, as of 2004 1 in 3 civilian women attending Norwich University were subject to sexual assault and or rape during academic career at Norwich."

-Redjar 02:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, thats quite false.

-Desk Jockey 20:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This is extraordinarily false.

This is the most bald face lie I've seen on the internet yet

Currently???

Listen, unless you plan on updating the page every year to list the Regimental Commander's name, putting currently and his name isn't very encyclopedic. He himself is not yet notable outside of Norwich.--Vidkun 14:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Other Buildings

Is it really nescessary to have a section about other Norwich buildings? Desk Jockey 15:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not necessary, but interesting.

Happy with my additions? Desk Jockey 07:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Headquarters?

The article states that HQ is seperate from the Battalions, when did this happen? in 1990-1994, HQ (all of the staff sections) were part of provisional battalion. I recognize this is not standard military practice (except for org with a special troops battalion), but it is how things were done while I was a Cadet.--Vidkun 14:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it marched as part of Provisional too. Desk Jockey 22:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Civil War?

Why not some info on alums service in the Civil War? I'm sure there had to have been some --AW 08:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Team Nickname

69.121.58.206- It's the cadets... the nickname of the teams is "The Cadets." If it was the nickname of the school, then you'd be right; it's not, and that's why there's a Div III thing after the nickname. Desk Jockey 05:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

SIze of the corps?

Maybe I'm just missing it, but stats on the number of cadets and number of non-cadets in the total student body would be useful. GCW50 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

And maybe a comparison of the Corps size over the decades? I'm curious as to how enrollment, both Corps and civilian, has changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.200.154 (talk) 21:53, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Template for other military colleges

Currently, there is a disagreement over the schools for which Norwich "...became the template..." primarily with regards to Texas A&M and VMI. This probably won't be covered by a Rook Book, but there must be some source (NU or other) that gives this kind of statement. Please cite a source. To stem revert wars until this issue is resolved, I'll remove the named schools completely. When a reliable cite is provided, hopefully we'll be able to consider the matter settled. ZueJay (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Running a google search brought me to "The Education of Engineers in America Before the Morrill Act of 1862" by Terry Reynolds writing in the History of Education Quarterly. On page 464 of Vol 32, No 4, he states "Following Partridge's example, Virginia in 1839 and South Carolina in 1843 established military academies to provide trained citizen-soldiers and officers for their state militia." For this paragraph Reynolds sites, for VMI's history, One Hundred Years at VMI by William Couper and Henry Wise's Drawing Out the Man: The VMI Story; for the Citadel he sites The Story of the Citadel by O.J. Bond and the History of Higher Education in South Carolina, With a Sketch of the Free School System by Colyer Meriwether. If so desired, I'll too provide page numbers.

In the dogeared Rook Book that I dug out of a box, it's on page 8 in "Brief History of Norwich University" by Robert Poirier.

Regardless of the above, Norwich is to those schools important because before it the Gov't had a full monopoly on professional training for officers. Had Partridge not skipped town in 1817, then West Point and the pre-colonial institutions would have remained the sole sources for higher education. However, he did leave and founded his own school. Because his was both popular nationally and to his students, many copies were created and many state legislatures were lobbied. Indeed the Morrill Act (from Vermont's representative from 1855 to 1867, Justin Morrill) itself was an idea that Partridge had been kicking around Congress since the 1840's. It wasn't until the 1860's when the Southerners left the Congress, that the Land Grant colleges were finally authorized. Really that line shouldn't just be about the other senior military colleges but the Land Grants as well. Desk Jockey 05:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I love the Rook Book - just don't have one handy. Okay, so you reworded a bit. I've added the first reference you cited, and changed one of the words to make the sentence more...global. Let's try that. With the reference, it comes down to word choice. Thanks! ZueJay (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Good luck! My experience here on Wikipedia suggests that you will still get partisan attacks on the statement that NU served as a template for anyone else.--Vidkun 15:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I encountered a young man from West Pont who was shocked when I informed him (a bit miffed he didn't all ready know) that NU was the "birthplace of ROTC."
Anyway, that's why I think word-choice for this sentence is important. I have a preference for something more like "impetus" "inspiration" "stimulus" "incentive" "motivation" instead of "template." It's just a matter of choosing the right one. The source cited above does not use the word "template" but more implies that NU was the motivator or inspiration for further development of schools like Norwich. ZueJay (talk) 15:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As a VMI graduate, I would like as little association as possible with Norwich and Citadel. VMI is completely different from the other schools. VMI is the Nation's only classical state military college. Enough said.Koonoonga 22:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the discussion here.

The difference between what you'd like and history seems to be rather great in this matter. VMI and the Citadel were both creations of their respective state's legislatures. The Citadel and Norwich have civilian students. VMI, the Citadel and Norwich all come from Partridge's citizen-soldier idea. Do you have that much of a distaste for non-military students? Desk Jockey 23:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

VMI certainly did not come from Partridge's ideas. Check VMI's history...your sources are garbage. To answer your question, no, I think civilian students are great at CIVILIAN SCHOOLS. I only have a distaste for folks who try to compare weaker versions of military schools to VMI...Good day and good luck in your quest...Koonoonga 01:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

"Check VMI's history..." This is why we try to cite third party sources. I would welcome another third-party source that states another viewpoint; we can certainly incorporate the disagreement into the article. Just so you know, Norwich originally had only cadet students until times changed, and social and financial difficulties forced the university to accept civilians. It has not been a readily accepted reality for everyone. ZueJay (talk) 01:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny thing, in late 1820's and early 1830's Capt. Partridge accepted a number (a dozen at the most) of non-military students as well as women. They had all left by the 40's, but they were there. Desk Jockey 03:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That is kinda funny. Definitely not a well-known fact. ZueJay (talk) 03:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a citation for that, because I think it would be a good addition to the article.--Vidkun 12:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I had originally included it in the late 20th section by saying that civilians and women "returned" to Norwich but God help me if I can find out how I knew that. It was either a conversation with Prof Lord or in one of the university history volumes in the library. I'm not near them, so I suspect that that'll have to wait.Desk Jockey 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys, don't bother. I can no longer assume good faith from Koonoonga or his predecessor Marshall3 when it comes to any information about VMI. In their eedits and comments, anything that contradicts their claims that VMI is better than/different than/founded differently/influenced differently than any other place is all wrong. They don't want facts, they want peacock words about themselves.--Vidkun 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As a graduate of VMI, I found this discussion pretty interesting. Certainly, the founders of VMI would have been aware of Norwich. I seem to remember that I was taught it was **an** inspiration, but I think "the inspiration" might still be too strong. Perhaps better would be Norwich had "an influence" on the founding of VMI. Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to One Hundred Years at VMI by William Couper and Henry Wise's Drawing Out the Man: The VMI Story. They are highly respected sources in the VMI community, and you could quote them specifically to help quiet debate. For what it is worth, the formation of VMI came out of a desire to quell disturbances by militia guarding the local state armory. It was thought students could be kept too busy to cause as much trouble. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems to me that many influnces shaped VMI beyond that initial desire. Norwich would certainly be one of them along with the federal academies, Les Ecole Polytechnique (thanks especially to Col. Claudius Crozet), and other state military institutions as they came on the scene. One may argue which is best, but none grew in isolation (including Norwich). Each probably had multiple sources of inspiration, and certainly the needs of the communities and military affected them. Many military colleges and universities have disappeared or transitioned into civilian colleges, yet the private, state and federal colleges likely influenced each other as they were born and grew.--Loubocop 12:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Norwich firsts

Beyond being the oldest American private military academy, I believe ABC reported that it was the first in the country to accept women (early to mid 70s I think they said). Does anyone have data on that? CApitol3 17:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's already in there. Desk Jockey 03:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary of achievements

Strikes me as that section is unnecessary. If we expect readers to need a two paragraph repeat of "firsts" in the first three paragraphs then we've not a very high opinion of their mental abilities. I'm all for working in any new information, but we shouldn't do this

Of what was placed in the new section, 3 of the 5 facts were not in the history prior to its placement. And the other two were just randomly stuck into a section. This way we give those accomplishments one section of its own with details, as they all relate to social change. Than we remove the random sentence stuck in random places about those accomplishments. It makes for a more informative and concise page.

We should do this.

68.55.109.227 03:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Norwich not first SMC to admit women

If all we are using is the stated claim from NU as a source, then we still need to remove the claim about it being the first, as shown here, because either North Georgia College or Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University is first, as they both admitted females in 1973.--Vidkun (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As I remember, it wasn't my choice to put that slug there (my original text in the body talked about being before the service academies) so yeah, that should fix that. The issue with the NU website is that that bit is included in a section called "More Firsts."Desk Jockey (talk) 00:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Notiable Alumni

Major General Ernest N. Harmon — Ernest Harmon Air Force Base is named in his honor. This statement is incorrect. Ernest Harmon Air Force Base was named on June 23, 1948, in honor of Captain Ernest Emery Harmon. Capt. Harmon was a U.S. Army Air Corps ace who was killed in an air crash in 1933, as stated on the Ernest Harmon Air Force Base page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oc111e (talk • contribs) 19:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

List is getting too long and distracting from the school. Needs to be forked to a separate article. (BTW this is goodness, not badness! Most schools with a real claim to fame had too many on their main page, too).Student7 (talk) 11:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Really need to fork these. Who is kept on main page? Dewey by himself? The person(s) need to be sufficiently eminent that there is no question of them being there and no competition from a lot of wannabees.

Don't see any villains here. No Picketts, no Custer, no Benedict Arnolds, that sort of thing. Why not? The school is big enough and has been in operation for a long time. Odd people give credibility to the list, but they have to be sufficiently famous/infamous.Student7 (talk) 21:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Culture

It would be nice to find a place for "culture", class rings and such, for colleges with considerable history. For starters, all entries need references. The latest entries had none or few. Also, a precedent is needed. If the USMA, Citadel, Harvard and Yale don't have this type of article, it's going to be hard to justify. I am going to delete the latest entries based on that observation. Student7 (talk) 12:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

When I started the grad program, one of my former battalion commanders who'd written one of my recommendations asked me if I was "going to get a Norwich tattoo like all their other grads." Since I never served with a Norwich grad (but The Citadel, VMI, NGC, Marion, and enough time on and off West Point I get junk mail from the AOG by accident sometimes), can any of the Norwich community add some info on strange traditions? USMA's article has some of their odd traditions mentioned, Sedgewick's Spurs and such, but Norwich seems to keep that stuff quiet. I'll have to add some material on the grad program though.67.142.130.22 (talk) 03:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Article reorganization

Editors need to be thinking about forking notables. Other articles have had to do this when section got too large. Keep only those FEW names that EVERYONE recognizes. Best to fork all of them and keep no one then you never have to haggle!

Also should fork buildings. No one is interested in them except alum. Truly dull. Sorry. Student7 (talk) 12:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictures needed

I've been building the Alden Partridge bio for some time, but lack any images. I know he appears on a postage stamp, but I'd like some public domain images, perhaps of the grand statue of Partridge on campus. Any Partridge lovers willing to take and upload a few snaps? BusterD (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Ring traditions

I see someone else reverted the ring traditions, and i also see that the corps webpage lists essentially the same info as was reverted. Let me give you original research, however much it's worth: in class of 1994, the tradition was that while you were at the university, when you wore your ring on your right hand, and looked down on the hand, you could read the words Norwich University right side up on the bezel of the ring. When you graduated, you turned it so that if you were to show the ring, on your hand, to someone else, say, with your palm down, the other person could read the bezel. With that being the way of it, on 1994's class ring, the side inside (on the right hand) is the class crest. To put it another way, when the ring is set flat on the opening, with Norwich University readable on the bezel, the class crest is on the viewer's right, the university side is on the viewer's left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.22.200 (talk) 00:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

All well and good. But my main concern is putting too much detail in the article about a rather obscure tradition (to outsiders) with little or no WP:FOOT. There has to be written material about this, and maybe even something on the web. It should be relatively short IMO. Why go on about every last detail in the past? The standard crest is important, but the details of how NU got there may not be. Student7 (talk) 11:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that the ring tradition info on how to wear it is extraneous to the article. A short blurb about when the ring was adopted, and how the various class sides are chosen, sure, but it needs to be cited, and not simply be a copy-paste from NU's webpage.--Vidkun (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Skull & Swords

How does an article on Norwich University not include its most notorious organization? Although now defunct, there should be SOME mention of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.209.10 (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

When you can provide some reliable sources, then, add something.--Vidkun (talk) 14:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Senior military college

Under federal law, only six colleges were named senior military schools of which Norwich was one. The statement about there being six (not mentioned earlier) was intended to emphasize this designation. Student7 (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Is that notable enough to NEED to be in the lede of the article, considering that the wording "military college" links directly to the article Senior Military College?--Vidkun (talk) 19:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how many military colleges there are - quite a few, I would suppose. The fact that the US Congress included Norwich in "the final six" should be explicitly mentioned somewhere I would think. The people at Norwich may know this, but most people do not. Why not be explicit about it? No it doesn't have to be in lead, but is is somewhat eminent.Student7 (talk) 23:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll put it in there, but, in the future, "there are six" is NOT a reference, is nowhere NEAR a reference. Seriously, much better wording and syntax should be used. Additionally, what happens if you click on the link in the lede that is rendered "military college"? You go to the article about Senior Military Colleges.--Vidkun (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks good! Thanks! Student7 (talk) 14:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Delisting in Wikipedia of Ret. Rear Admiral Dr. Richard W. Schneider as a notable

Admiral Schneider's article (he is also a college president and a scholar) should be restored. He has been a notable for years and more than satisfies the criteria for notability. The clandestine deletion of his article from Wikipedia should not be tolerated. 69.121.18.196 (talk) 20:51, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not the place, but I agree with you. Flag officers are automatically "notable." But you will have to complain someplace else to get attention. Student7 (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't clandestine, mister "I don't even have a user account". It wasn't delisted for being non-notable. It was removed because it was a blatant copyright violation - which is, technically, a theft of intellectual property. I'm sure President Schneider would hate to think someone was being intellectually dishonest in an article about him by not writing their own, properly cited, material. Given his support of the Honor Code, and its application to plagiarism, I'm sure he'd be highly offended.--Vidkun (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to what happened: [1]. Had you, 69.121.18.196, attempted to create the article, instead of simply throwing out baseless accusations "The clandestine deletion of his article from Wikipedia should not be tolerated", you would have known that the deletion wasn't clandestine, and the deletion, based on copyright issues, is absolutely going to be tolerated, as it is in direct keeping with the policies of wikipedia. HTH, HAND.--Vidkun (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

As I responded to Vidkun at the Wesleyan University discussion page: "The logical and constructive response to your 'suggestion' is that a 'contributor' write an appropriate article. There are enough sources independent of Norwich University's page for this. I do not have the time nor the inclination to write such an article. Nor apparently do you. I shall not address your infantile preamble nor your sophomoric blithering and commands." Your attempt here to offer the speculative testimony of Dr. Schneider adds nothing. 69.121.18.196 (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Corps structure

Editors need to understand that when describing corps structure, that describing platoons, etc. Does not necessarily mean anything to a non-military person. They envisualize people marching along! The corps structure extends (most likely) to living arrangements, upper class near underclass, that sort of thing, meals, etc. Needs preliminary sentence saying this perhaps. Student7 (talk) 13:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

These have become too large overcoming the article. Need to be made smaller and allow the text to flow around them. No one is going to read very far into this article the way it is now. Student7 (talk) 22:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I've reduced and right-justified them: looking better now I think. Mr. Credible (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks good! Thanks! Student7 (talk) 13:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

War and expansion: Norwich in the 20th century Expansion

To clarify for readers not attending, as of the 2009-2010 year, rooks are placed into numbered companies, e.g. 09-1 through 09-4 for freshmen of the 2009-2010 school year (3rd batallion), and 10-1 through 10-6 (across two batallions, 3rd and the new 4th batallion) for freshmen of the 2010-2011 school year. This trend will continue for the 2011-2012 school year, starting with Rook Week today. 76.23.149.192 (talk) 05:54, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Norwich cadet logo.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Norwich cadet logo.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 23:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC) Civil Engineering Start Date I don't know how to cite it, but in the Rook Book, "1820: Band organized, oldest collegiate band in the nation. First instruction of Civil Engineering offered in the U.S." Renovations I don't know about tracking "renovations." I can't imagine Harvard tracking "renovations" since 1640 or whatever, to say nothing of European institutions that have been around for a thousand years. Why are "renovations" important? All buildings, cars, drapes, etc. have to be renovated. Student7 (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC) Some renovations on campus significantly repurposed or re-named existing buildings. In those cases it makes sense (but in those cases that should probably also be stated). In my quick search, the challenge is that most sources only cite the renovation and don't necessarily document the change in use (so it's hard to capture anything with citations other than just the fact of the renovation) 98.230.196.247 (talk) 14:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC) Some potential sources from one of the architects (which is not me, I swear, I just happen to be untangling this same issue for campus planning) that might elaborate (captured 7/12/2023): https://www.jonesarch.com/projects/reinvigorating-the-academic-campus-core/ https://www.jonesarch.com/work/mack-hall-college-of-professional-schools/ https://www.jonesarch.com/projects/dewey-hall-college-of-liberal-arts/ https://www.jonesarch.com/projects/schneider-hall/ Some quotes (from the Architect's website/marketing materials - first-person bias unedited): In 2011, Jones worked with the College of Liberal Arts and College of Professional Schools at Norwich University to fundamentally re-think how they deliver learning. Several months of programming resulted in a reconsideration of existing classroom types, as well as development of a complementary set of new, specialized learning environments: cyber forensics simulation labs, mobile device forensics lab, computing project rooms, BIM labs, case study learning rooms, an auditorium, and active team-based learning settings. The master planning effort that followed this programming process led to recommended renovations of three existing buildings (Schneider Hall/$8.6M, Dewey Hall/$6M, and Ainsworth Hall/$3.9M) and the addition of a new building (Mack Hall/$18.6M) to accommodate more contemporary program elements. At (the new) Mack Hall, home of Norwich University’s College of Professional Schools and cybersecurity program, a steep hill becomes an asset, providing a nesting site for a new, multi-purpose auditorium while improving accessibility on campus through a network of connections at four grade levels. The need for more teaching and office space was the impetus for this four-story, 51,000 square foot building on the campus of the nation’s oldest private military college. As the new home for the College of Professional Schools, as well as the university’s cybersecurity program, Mack Hall expands the university’s general-use classroom portfolio while introducing specialty learning spaces. Engaged to reprogram the interior of Dewey Hall–a collection of spaces which, while elegantly proportioned, no longer met the requirements of contemporary pedagogy–we ultimately proposed both interior and exterior design improvements. Our study of exterior campus pathways and universal accessibility revealed fundamental shortcomings in the building’s existing circulation, in terms of access points and of interior circulation sequence. Our solution removes the architecturally unremarkable south entrance, replacing it with a new volume housing stairs, elevator, and lounge spaces that takes advantage of striking views of nearby mountains. The composition of the new façade better relates to the historic north entrance and restores to Dewey Hall the architectural character appropriate to its prominent site on the University’s most formal campus green space. With an interior dating to the 1950s, Schneider Hall (formerly North Hall) sorely needed an overhaul that would bring the building up to date and accommodate new modes of teaching. Because the building was structurally sound, our approach was to keep as much of the existing structure as possible intact, repurposing the space for classrooms and seminar rooms that fit well with the existing geometry. (end of quoates) The section on Dewey Hall may fall "below the line" of what should be noted for the Wikipedia article. I'll leave that to more seasoned contributors. However, taken as a whole, it appears the campus underwent significant change and reconfiguration in the decade of 2010-2020. 98.230.196.247 (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2023 (UTC) RE: Harvard tracking renovations - Testing your theory, here's what I found: There certainly seems to be a lot of documentation around renovations of the same scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University%27s_expansion_in_Allston,_Massachusetts A ten-year plan calls for 1.4 million square feet (130,000 square meters) of new construction and 500,000 square feet (50,000 square meters) of renovations, including new and renovated buildings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunster_House Dunster underwent a "full House renewal," a comprehensive renovation that was completed in 2016. It was the first of Harvard's residential houses to undergo such a full renewal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Campus_Center#Renaming_and_renovation Over the next several years, its [sic] underwent extensive renovation to create gathering, lounge, and study spaces, and space for exhibitions, events, and performances, after reopening in 2018. And from Harvard's own sources: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/11/arts-shining-future/ 98.230.196.247 (talk) 14:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC) File:Sabine Field Arial Overview.jpg Nominated for Deletion An image used in this article, File:Sabine Field Arial Overview.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)