Talk:Northcentral University

Notes

It is clear that who ever is trying to change and manipulate this article has a vested interest in the school. Possibly a student, employee or investor but we will really never know.

Here are the facts:

• It is a private, for profit school

• Being listed on or by Carnegie is not prestigious and really means nothing more than a clarification of the type of school it is. Is proves nothing in area of ranking against other schools and can not and should not be used as a resource to make the school "stand out". Any school, as long as it is accredited, can be get the clarification and put on the list.

• It was not the first "distance education" school to receive ACBSP accreditation and quite frankly the ACBSP accreditation is not that well received in the corporate world. If the school was ABET or AACSB accredited, than it is more noteworthy to give some acceptance. As noted on the University of Phoenix page "Some companies, including the Intel Corporation [have] eliminated tuition reimbursement for employees attending non-AACSB accredited schools".,ref>http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/1205biz-intel1205side.html?&wired</ref>

• Whether or not regional accreditation is the "highest accreditation" is a matter of opinion and opinion does not belong on Wiki.

• A schools who courses or programs are certified by the CNSS because they meet the "minimum standards for education students in Information assurance" and do not have the ability to award students certifications. Only schools that have been designated as a Center of Excellence or Center of Reseach by the NSA's CNSS can award such certifications.

• Just because NCU's has a program listed on the FEMA website doesn't make it any better or any worse than the other 270+ schools also listed on the FEMA EMI website. This list is just that, a list...and in no particular order (it appears to be alphabetized)...and the EMI website says it does not make any recommendations. This web site is nothing more than a reference point for people who are looking for an emergency management or homeland security program.24.179.208.119 (talk) 04:25, 25 January 2010 (UTC) - And you are?

rankings

It appears that the references used for rankings are nothing more than advertisers and information mining sites (sometimes referred as aggregators). Interesting that noted rankings such as US News and World Report are not referrenced. Again this seems to be more aligned with quantity over quality.24.179.208.119 (talk) 03:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a work in progress but we are getting this page cleaned up, squared away and not making it look like an advertisement for NCU.216.54.205.2 (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs to get cleaned up. It's important that all articles are unbiased and do not have a agenda.24.179.208.119 (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello there, in cleaning up this article you have removed a reference to their rankings on GetEducated.com. I am not sure exactly what you removed, but their Master of Education does appear on our Best Buy list for Online Masters of Education http://imgur.com/d5oYS (number 58). I wanted to assure you that this is an independent ranking site that has been around for a long time, and although we do use advertising to pay the bills, it has no affect on the ratings/rankings.

-- Immaletufinish (talk) 14:10, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

You need to look up the definition of conflict of interest. It would be a sham for this article to include rankings of schools from a website that ollects money from the the very institutes it ranks simply because that way the developer of the site can "pay the bills". 24.179.208.119 (talk) 05:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

-- Immaletufinish (talk) 13:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Every piece of information on the colleges & degrees at GetEducated.com, including the total cost of degree (which is used to calculate the Best Buy rating in question) is available to users, objective, and can easily be verified. Not sure what you think the advertisers even could get, besides advertising, as their programs just cost what they cost.

Why don't you go take a look and see for yourself? Then you will see that the rankings and ratings there, much like Consumer Reports, is not even the kind of thing that can be manipulated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Immaletufinish (talk • contribs) 13:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Consumer reports doesn't take money through advertisements so there is a big difference.24.179.208.119 (talk) 01:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

removal of Carnegie Classification

Article makes it appear that this classification is prestigious and limited but according to Carnegie web site this is not the case:

"All accredited, degree-granting colleges and universities in the United States represented in the National Center for Education Statistics IPEDS system are eligible for inclusion in the Carnegie Classifications (as of the year a classification is issued, and subject to the availability of required data). Accreditation status is based on information provided by the U.S. Department of Education Office of Postsecondary Education." [1]216.54.205.2 (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT

There seems to be some who think he wiki is an advertisement center for NCU. You need to look at the articles of other schools and note these fact:

1) NCU is a FOR PROFIT SCHOOL 2) NCU is not accredited by the CCNS 3) NCU is not recommended by the EMI (FEMA) 4) Regional accreditation is not the highest form of accreditation. That is an opinion and wiki is not a place for opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.54.205.2 (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

CNSS certification of courses is NOT accreditation. - Being listed by FEMA is not accreditation. - - "is the highest accreditation for US institutions of higher learning. Educational credits earned at regionally accredited schools are usually accepted at other universities in the United States and other countries ". THIS IS OPINION - - The University was the first distance learning university to have its business school accredited by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs, whose mission is to develop practices that contribute to improvement of business education. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE UNIVERSITY OF PHOENIX HAD THIS LONG BEFORE NCU. - - - In its brief history, Northcentral University has had more than 600 graduates. Today NCU has a student body of more than 7,500 students worldwide. NCU students represent every U.S. state and territory and 52 other nations. THEY CAN VISIT THE NCU WEBSITE IF THE WANT TO SEE THIS ADVERTISEMENT. - - The vision was to combine academics with the convenience of distance learning. NCU began by offering degree programs in business administration and psychology. Today NCU offers bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees (PhD, EdD or DBA) in business, education, and psychology. MORE ADVERTISING - - Only forty-two percent of business schools in the United States possess external specialty accreditation. There are three principal accrediting agencies for business programs - AACSB which is recognized by the CHEA and is a research and excellence in instruction oriented accreditation, ACBSP which is also recognized by CHEA and is a more business oriented accreditation, and IACBE is the premier international business school accreditation. These three accreditations represent the majority of specialty business accreditation. USERS CAN VISIT THE AACSB WEBSITE AND GET THIS INFORMATION. THIS IS A PLACE FOF FACTS.

==Previous edits seem to be malicious in intent without getting facts right

I agree with K.Joshi's changes. The edits seem to be void of facts and seem to be from either competitors(as indicated by the UPX hint in one of the edits) or ex students who might have been kicked out of the program. The school accreditation and recognition by the various federal agencies actually demonstrate a paradigm shift in the educational landscape and acceptability of online schools and degrees. This actually contributes to wikipedia's role as an information repository for everyone. Please do not deface site with accusations which do not face up to the facts and with malicious intent to drum up business for competitors. This is not a place for marketing wars, please compete on your own merit in the marketplace and with quality education offerings.

You seem to think that having courses certified by the CNSS is an acreditation. It is not. The only accreditation that the the CNSS gives out is the Center of Academic Excellence and Center of Research Excellence, of which NCU do not have.216.54.205.2 (talk) 17:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

References

dltruth.com

A small range of IP editors are repeatedly adding a link from the site dltruth.com. The page is an unmoderated forum criticizing various aspects of the school's programs. I have no problem with criticism, but this site is not a reliable source, as it is purely, by definition original and unverifiable research, the latter of which is specifically named in WP:LINKSTOAVOID. I do not wish to have to seek blacklising for this site, but it may come down to that, if the link keeps getting re-added, unless a discussion is had, and consensus is reached. Any comments? -Seidenstud (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

remove notable alumni

These people are not notable in any sense. Most, if not all of them, are not leaders in their perspective field and are upper-middle management type of professionals at best. An associate professor is a notable alumni? Nothing more than attempt to advertise. 24.179.208.119 (talk) 03:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

what is the criteria for notable alumni???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.176.60 (talk) 07:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Ex-students who have been successful in their respective fields. Especially those who can provide inspiration and idea of acceptance of the programs from the University in fields like military etc. Also, the idea of listing these alumni is to demonstrate the growing acceptance of the online programs by the brick and mortar universities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.135.207.90 (talk) 22:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

These are not "notable alumni". they aren't even leaders in their fields. Vice presidents of some small college, a LT Col. You reasoning for notable alunmi is way off. If you want notable alumni look at Harvard, Yale, or even the University of Phoenix.24.179.208.119 (talk) 03:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It would appear that whoever is listing these people as "notable alumni" must be associated with the school.216.54.205.2 (talk) 20:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that someone from the school must be trying to manipulate this article. I think it is a reasonable assumption that individuals who are not notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia would not be notable enough to be listed in the notable alumni section of an educational institution. Since most of the previously listed alumni were red links, those people didn't need to be in this article. -Mabeenot (talk) 19:25, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Carnegie classification

While I applaud the inclusion of the Basic Carnegie Classification in the lead, trying to couch in terms of a "ranking" of any sort is incorrect and a complete misunderstanding of this taxonomy. These classifications describe institutions, they do not subjectively rank them. ElKevbo (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

More specifically, the text in dispute is: "The Carnegie classification distinguishes the university by placing it in the top seven percent of all institutions of higher education in the United States of America."

That the text says that this institution is placed in "the top seven percent" misstates and misunderstands the nature of this taxonomic classification. The unregistered editor insisting on this text needs to explain this edit and his or her understanding of the Carnegie classifications. ElKevbo (talk) 00:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(Response copied from my Talk page)

Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Houston_State_University and references provided, US News ranking take into account only schools with AACSB accreditation and Carnegie Classifications take into account actual research. Less than 7% of universities in the US can clain to be an RU or DRU which are amongst the highest classifications per the CFAT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.123.195 (talk) 00:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

First, with only minor exceptions there are no "high" or "low" classifications in the Carnegie classifications. It's a taxonomic classification scheme that groups like institutions together. This is like trying to say that mammals are ranked higher than reptiles; it simply doesn't make sense because that's not what those categories do.

Second, institutions are classified as DRU only because they award a minimum number of doctoral degrees but they conduct enough or the right kinds of research (NSF-funded, IIRC) to be classified using their research funding. So from that perspective these institutions are "ranked" lower than the other types of doctoral institutions. But even that is a poor interpretation of the classification.

So if you'd like to claim that this institution is among the small percentage of institutions classified as DRU institutions then that's a valid claim. I think it's uninteresting but it's valid. You can not, however, claim that this institution is better than others using its Carnegie classification because the classification categories say nothing about quality or rank order. ElKevbo (talk) 02:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with ElKevbo on this point. Additionally, I've removed the statement from the Sam Houston State University article; there was no source or other basis given for the statement there. Thanks for pointing it out. --Orlady (talk) 03:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This entire article has become nothing more than an advertisement. Clarifications that give relevance to points listed on this page are erased and the person doing most of the editing ridding the article of facts that show the school has no amazing accreditation, designations or other items of importance.24.179.208.119 (talk) 02:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

That's nice. But why do you keep removing the Carnegie Classification? It's the most widely used and respected taxonomy of U.S. colleges and universities. As discussed above, it's not a ranking. It's entirely appropriate to include it and I would even argue that it's necessary to include it. If you disagree, you should bring it up at WP:UNI since it's such a widely used piece of data. ElKevbo (talk) 18:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Deleted content regarding letter of credit

Content copied from my talk page. --Orlady (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC) Hi Orlady, You recently undid a deletion I made on the Northcentral University page. I'd like to pursue this further.

The statement about the US Dept of Ed requiring a letter of credit from Northcentral is in the History section which I contend does not belong. In addition, Nortcentral had a change of ownership and control in December of 2008. The accounting treatment for transactions of this kind negatively affects the Department of Education's financial responsibility ratio. Therefore, any University undergoing a change in ownership is highly unlikely to pass the financial responsibility ratio for a number of years. For institutions in situations such as this, the U.S. Department of Education provides alternative options to demonstrate financial responsibility, including an option to obtain a letter of credit. Our initial letter of credit requirement from 2009 through September of 2011 was to post a letter of credit in the amount of 50% of the prior year's student financial aid. In 2011, the University had a favorable annual financial audit report and showed continued strength in the its ability to generate positive cash flow. The U S Department of Education decided to reduce the amount of the letter of credit requirement considerably. The University believes that based on our ability to obtain the required letter of credit and other measures of financial strength, our financial stability is strong, and our recurring earnings are more than sufficient to meet our current and future obligations and continue to make heavy investment in the quality and delivery of our educational offerings.

Also, the composite financial score is not a reflection of the quality of education at a given school. Furthermore, 180 are also listed as not meeting the composite financial score requirements and I do not see an entry in Wikipedia stating such. I don't see the value in the entry.

Lastly, I will be making additional changes and updates to the Northcentral University. I am a fairly new wikipedia user and will make my best effort to follow the guidelines and terms of use but would appreciate your guidance in the area. Thank you for your time.

Myjourneyaz (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)myjourneyaz

As I advised you on your talk page, Wikipedia requires reliable sources for content. You deleted reliably sourced information because you say it is incorrect, but you have not provided a reliable source for your information. Further, as I advised you on your talk page, Talk:Northcentral University is the appropriate place to discuss this. I am copying this conversation there. --Orlady (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not realize that this page had been semi-protected. I will unprotect it now so discussion can occur. --Orlady (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Siting the same refernce already provided, The Chronicle of Higher Education, Northcentral did not meet the required composite financial score and therefore was required to provide a letter of credit to prove financial responsibility. In addition, as stated earlier, 180 institutions did not meet the minimum score requirements; however, I only see it listed on the Northcentral University page (I did a random audit and did not check all 180 pages). Also, this has nothing to do with the history of Northcentral University. I ask that the item be removed or re-categorized as it has nothing to do with the history of this higher education institution or that the same entry be made in the pages of the other 179 institutions with the same requirment from the Department of Education. As stated on the Federal Student Aid website, "The composite financial score is not a reflection of the quality of education at a given school." 67.60.213.66 (talk) 22:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Myjourneyaz (talk) 22:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

In effect, you are now agreeing that the information is valid, but you are saying that inclusion of this information in the article gives it undue emphasis, particularly because the same information does not appear in the articles about the other 179 schools listed in the Chronicle of Higher Education article.

First, a minor quibble: Please note that only schools with scores less than 1 are required to submit a letter of credit, so only 75 schools have the same situation as Northcentral, not 180.

Now for the more philosophical aspects of your complaint. It would be nice if relevant information were included in all articles where it might be relevant, but the reality is that Wikipedia is not being written in an organized fashion and not all articles are equally complete (indeed, some of those schools probably don't have articles). The information in question is not irrelevant, it is not inappropriate for Wikipedia, and it is appropriately sourced. The fact that it was published last month and has not yet been added to 180 (or 75) separate articles does not in any way make it inadmissible to this article.

You have not provided an indication that there is something wrong with the information in the article. The generic statement on the government website that the "financial score is not a reflection of the quality of education" does not indicate that the financial score is invalid. I first became aware of this list of schools because it received a lot of news media attention in the region where I live. I recall news reports indicating that some (but not all) of the schools in this area that appear on the list protested the information on the list, stating that the statistics used in assembling the list were wrong or outdated. (I haven't added that information to articles about those schools because I am not interested in those schools, I wasn't particularly interested in financial scores, and I'm a volunteer.) If a school stated (in a published source) that the federal government's information is incorrect, it may be appropriate for Wikipedia to report the dispute, but it should be represented as a dispute -- a school's protest does not prove that the federal government is wrong. --Orlady (talk) 04:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Some proposed changes

David Harpool is the Provost, not Acting Provost. He also has a JD. I'm requesting a change to "Provost: David Harpool, PhD, JD" .

The logo is outdated. The new logo is on the NCU website.

The History section should also include the correct accreditation information. "In 2013, Northcentral received a five-year accreditation from the Commission on Accreditation for Marriage and Family Therapy Education (COAMFTE) for its Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy (MAMFT) degree program, ensuring that the University’s program aligns with national accreditation standards.

Also in 2013, Northcentral University’s Master of Education programs focused on PK-12 education received five-year initial accreditation from the Council for the Accreditation of Educator Preparation (CAEP).

In 2015, Northcentral University also relocated its headquarters to San Diego, CA, and received regional five-year accreditation by the WASC Senior College and University Commission (WSCUC).

In 2015, NCU’s PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy program became the first distance-based doctoral program to receive COAMFTE’s coveted programmatic accreditation."

Reference to the FEMA Emergency Management Institute should be removed.

Requesting section added on Project Management Institute. "Northcentral University is recognized as a Registered Education Provider (REP) at the Global Provider Enrollment Level by Project Management Institute (PMI)®, 14 Campus Boulevard, Newtown Square, PA 19073, 855.746.4849, www.pmi.org." Johrandle (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Definitely some promotional content hidden within the edit request, such as the "coveted" programmatic accreditation and "aligns with national accreditation standards". Most of what's proposed is already mentioned in the article, and no reasons are mentioned for some additions/removals. Also, an address and a website cannot be included within the text, as that would be unsuitable for an encyclopedia. I'll see what I can do about the logo. By the way, thanks for pointing out the PhD part - that should not be in the article, so I've removed it. @ElKevbo: Seeing as you've worked on the article before, perhaps you'd like to look over the content for something that might be okay to add, as it's definitely not getting fully implemented. Regards, VB00 (talk) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I have now updated the logo. Regards, VB00 (talk) 11:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll respond to each of the parts of the request by copying them below and noting my opinion/response.

1. The logo is outdated. The new logo is on the NCU website.

VB00 has already updated this in the article.

2. The History section should also include the correct accreditation information: "In 2013, Northcentral received a five-year accreditation from the Commission on Accreditation for Marriage and Family Therapy Education (COAMFTE) for its Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy (MAMFT) degree program, ensuring that the University’s program aligns with national accreditation standards.

I agree with Johrandle that the last part of the sentence is unnecessary. But this information is already in the article anyway.

3. Also in 2013, Northcentral University’s Master of Education programs focused on PK-12 education received five-year initial accreditation from the Council for the Accreditation of Educator Preparation (CAEP).

Added with some edits.

4. In 2015, Northcentral University also relocated its headquarters to San Diego, CA, and received regional five-year accreditation by the WASC Senior College and University Commission (WSCUC).

This is already in the article and looks fine although it's written differently.

5. In 2015, NCU’s PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy program became the first distance-based doctoral program to receive COAMFTE’s coveted programmatic accreditation."

The source doesn't explicitly say this so I'm not comfortable adding it (or retaining it since it was in the article until I removed it a few minutes ago). And the "coveted" part is way out of line.

6. Reference to the FEMA Emergency Management Institute should be removed.

Thanks; I've removed it.

7. Requesting section added on Project Management Institute. "Northcentral University is recognized as a Registered Education Provider (REP) at the Global Provider Enrollment Level by Project Management Institute (PMI)®, 14 Campus Boulevard, Newtown Square, PA 19073, 855.746.4849, www.pmi.org."

Done, albeit edited.

ElKevbo (talk) 21:04, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I forgot one:

8. David Harpool is the Provost, not Acting Provost. He also has a JD. I'm requesting a change to "Provost: David Harpool, PhD, JD" .

Someone has already edited him to be permanent but I we usually don't include academic title for people in articles.

ElKevbo (talk) 21:08, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

References

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For-profit or non-profit?

There is dispute about whether this institution is for-profit or non-profit. The U.S. Department of Education says that the institution is for-profit and the institution's regional accreditor also says that it's for-profit. Further, the self-published website that one editor has cited as documenting that this institution is non-profit doesn't actually say that. Instead, that website specifically says that this university "is a proud affiliate of the private, nonprofit National University System [emphasis added]." Being an affiliate of a non-profit university is not the same as being a non-profit institution.

Is there additional evidence or other complications that we should be considering? ElKevbo (talk) 18:59, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

After a quick search on the IRS Tax Exempt Organization Database, it lists Northcentral University as an organization on the Publication 78 list (so, according to the IRS they qualify for tax-exempt charitable contributions) and their deductibility code is "PC" which stands for "public charity." I think they recently made this change, and maybe the accreditor and U.S. Department of Education have not updated their databases that populate this information? TigerSB181920 (talk) 02:45, 17 August 2019 (UTC)TigerSB181920

References