Talk:Noongar (disambiguation)

Requested move 31 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

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• Noongar (disambiguation) → Noongar
• Noongar → Noongar people

– I don't see a primary topic between the Australian indigenous group, their language and the several other smaller topics with the name, which include an ethnic group of India and a town. A possible complicating factor is that the language is more commonly spelt in the linguistics literature as Nyungar, but we don't know how much of that scholarly preference is matched by reader expectations, we know the Noongar spelling for the language is still pretty common, and more generally, we would want to avoid leveraging spelling differences in order to differentiate article titles except in very clear-cut cases. – Uanfala (talk) 14:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. JHunterJ (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 04:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 05:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Clarification, if I may @Uanfala:, you are proposing that:

• Noongar (disambiguation) → Noongar
• Noongar → Noongar people
• Noongar (disambiguation) → Noongar people ?

~ cygnis insignis 15:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Apologies for listing the two moves in what turns out to be a non-intuitive order. The proposal is to move Noongar to Noongar people, and Noongar (disambiguation) to Noongar. – Uanfala (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I feel I have intuition, but never know what others mean by it ;-) Clarification ag'in: Noongar people currently redirects to Noongar. ~ cygnis insignis 15:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• oppose move of the article Noongar to Noongar people as its about more than just people, its an overarching topic summary article about country, culture, place, sub-regions, politics, people with 50,000+plus years of history. In the early 1990's the spelling was standardised at community forum to establish a teaching format for consistency Noongar describes the community, culture, people. The ISO code for the language was created by linguists as Nyungar in the 1980's, that spelling has regional issues. Gnangarra 07:45, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

looking at the Indian caste that started in the 1500's its a stub article, very few reliable english article from google resources available most refer back to Wikipedia, just a Indian government lists https://welfarepunjab.gov.in/Static/Bccastes.html and https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11828374 (references Wikipedia).. It's one of 3000 caste(or 25,000 subcastes cant clarify) need more information to able to make any assessment about the caste but from appearances Noongar as it is is the WP:Primary topic Gnangarra 08:02, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

oppose move of the article Noongar to Noongar people as its about more than just people ... — The lead sentence defines Noongar as "The Noongar ... are Aboriginal Australian peoples ....". If the intent is that the article's scope be broader than "just people", the lead sentence should probably be reworded to define the broader scope. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, as far as I can see this has the standard scope of an ethnicity article. I don't know what an article "just" about a people might look like, but articles about peoples (like this one) are normally expected to have content about the geographic distribution, history, and culture of those peoples. The use of the word "people" in the title just follows the conventions of WP:NCET. – Uanfala (talk) 12:24, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

WP:NCET say the article should as the group identify themselves they identify as Noongar, there is still no answer as to what challenges WP:Primary of Noongar Gnangarra 06:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, "Noongar" works only if you take them to be the primary topic. NCET recommends plural forms in all cases when they exist. "Noongars" would then be preferable; the form is attested but I don't know how common it is. Assuming it's not commonly used, then the next best disambiguator is "people": In cases where no plural demonym exists, or where that demonym is ambiguous and not the primary topic, other forms can be used. The most common method of disambiguation is to add "people" to the end of the common singular form to create natural disambiguation, e.g. Chinese people.
As for the primary topic question – generally, when a term is used both as the name of an ethnic group and the name of a language, we assume there's no primary topic (see for example Maori). Some editors have disagreed with this convention, instead arguing that the ethnic group should always be the primary topic – this approach is often followed for indigenous groups of US and Canada (see Navajo), and by extension apparently in Australia. Wherever you may stand in this general debate, however, it's difficult to defend the primacy of the ethnic group in the presence of other, non-negligible topics with the same name. "Noongar" isn't just the name of an ethnic group and their language, it's also the name of a town and of another, unrelated social group of India (yes, it's less well-known than the Australian group but it can't be completely ignored). – Uanfala (talk) 11:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

So your saying is that convention in US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia is to not add people, that to me says WP:NCET doesnt reflect community consensus and that Noongar is already inline actual community practices. Gnangarra 07:07, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.