Talk:Non-sporting group

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Requested move 20 February 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed for all except Fifteen and Send Time. bd2412 T 12:54, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– MOS:LIFE, MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, WP:CONSISTENCY. Not proper names; these are common-noun phrases by definition, as there are many such groups in many kennel clubs, and they do not all use the same exact terms (nor the same groups, nor the same breeds within groups, and often without "group" at the end); this makes them descriptive titles (WP:NPOVTITLE) – WP's attempt to compress a zillion potential topics (AKC Non-sporting Group, FCI Companion and Toy Dogs, etc.) down to under a dozen for manageability. Even the kennel clubs do not consistently capitalize in running text (quote from AKC, emphasis added: "Non-sporting dogs are a diverse group. Here are sturdy animals with as different personalities and appearances as the Chow Chow, Dalmatian, French Bulldog, and Keeshond. ..."[1]). MOS:LIFE is clear that we do not capitalize breed types or groups at all, or any other collective term for organisms, wild or domestic. Things like "Non-Sporting Group" illustrate the typical specialized-style fallacy of insiders over-capitalizing everything they want to single out as significant when writing for other people in the same specialty. "Kennel Club Groups" is just flat-out wrong in basic English writing; it's same as "Lady Gaga Albums" or "Microsoft Software". But "groups" by itself was confusing anyway (implies local/regional affiliates of a national or international organization, of which we have entire categories); use "breed groups" or perhaps "dog groups". If any of the names under consideration, e.g. "Companion group", "Toy group", etc., seem too naturally ambiguous, we could also use "breed group" or "dog group" for them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Additional notes:

This over-capitalizing is also a WP:CONSISTENCY failure on two other levels:
1. As we see from AKC's wording, something like "non-sporting dogs" and "non-sporting group" are synonymous, yet we never capitalize "dog[s]" when it follows a breed name unless the word is a formal part of the name of the breed ("Havanese dog" not "Havanese Dog").
2. We do not capitalize dog types per MOS:LIFE, only standardized breeds; there are poodles, hounds, retrievers, and terriers (types), then there are the Toy Poodle, Keeshond, Labrador Retriever, and Kerry Blue Terrier (breeds); we can't have a Terrier Group or Terrier Dogs or Terrier Breed Group or Terrier Dog Group if we don't have a capital-T terrier in the first place. One related merge proposal (of trivial pages not listed here) is already open at Talk:Fédération Cynologique Internationale Groups#Merge from "FCI [Whatever] Group" pages.
Merge potential: If any of these articles are AKC-only (and at least one seems to be, Miscellaneous Class), they should be merged to what is presently American Kennel Club Groups, though just fixing the titles can be done in the interim. See: Talk:List of dog breeds recognized by the American Kennel Club#Merge redundant articles.
Further merge potential: To the extent any of these overlap mostly or completely with dog-type articles, the breed-group articles should not exist. There is no reason at all for Toy dog and what's presently named Toy Group to both exist; it's a WP:CONTENTFORK and possibly a WP:POVFORK. Several of these things have already been merged over the last two years or so. Merge discussions open at Talk:Toy dog#Merge from Toy Group, Talk:Terrier#Merge from Terrier Group, Talk:Herding dog#Merge from Herding Group. But the rest of these need to be examined for merging.
Even if non-sporting were to be capitalized here, it would be "Non-sporting" per MOS:HYPHEN (don't capitalize after a hyphen unless what follows the hyphen is itself a proper name, as in "post-Soviet"). But the capitalizing isn't what WP does anyway, per MOS:LIFE.

There's a tremendous amount of over-capitalization and cruft (and WP:NPOV and WP:NOT#HOWTO) cleanup work to do in dog articles (comparatively minor example [2]). It's mostly already been done in cats, cattle, horses, etc., etc. This is kind of the last bastion of "capitalize everything about the animals I like most, just because", and of forking off redundant domestic-animal-related stubs for particular organizations' vaguely different nomenclature. This does not serve our readers; we need comprehensive articles, not trivia nit-picking.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Support, but also downcase Gundog Group, Utility Group, Pastoral Group, American Kennel Club Groups, Canadian Kennel Club Groups and any other "Group" things we find. This is silly. The refs, e.g. on Pastoral Group, don't even support the group name, much less the caps. Dicklyon (talk) 04:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd missed those. I've added them to the nomination list. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:42, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Part of the issue is caused through the websites of the clubs, which list all their major topics using headings that use capital letters for each word in the topic heading. Editors have simply replicated that onto Wikipedia. However, this style is not supported by WP:MOS. William Harris • (talk) • 08:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Update I added a couple of others, not found at first because they were categorized differently. Also added RMs to down-case Junior Showmanship, General Specials, and Fifteen and Send Time as simply more "capitalize it because it has something to do with dogs" errors. They're just generic terms used by kennel clubs for dog sports subcategories (must move per WP:CONSISTENCY with dog showmanship and everything else at Category:Dog sports, and per MOS:CAPS against capitalizing names of non-trademarked sports/games, reconfirmed last month in an RfC at WT:MOSCAPS). "Move discussion in progress" notices have been left at the talk pages of all nominated articles (and WT:DOGS) either by the RM bot or by me. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Fifteen and Send Time as it's used as an acronym "FAST". Also oppose all of the kennel clubs being decapitalized in any way, as they're official names. The rest I'm neutral on. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:06, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unable to find a single source that uses lower case Fifteen and Send Time Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Followup notes

'Oppose Fifteen and Send Time as it's used as an acronym "FAST"' isn't a valid oppose rationale (or valid general reasoning). Virtually all acronyms that are not references to organizations, products/services, or other proper nouns are upper-case acronyms for lower-case phrases (e.g. HIV and AIDS for human immunodeficiency virus and acquired immune deficiency syndrome; DRM for digital rights management; SCUBA for self-contained underwater breathing apparatus; and literally millions of other examples. I'll just re-RM that one separately, later, if the closer doesn't reverse that baseless exclusion. This is entirely covered by MOS:CAPS and MOS:ABBR; there is no exception to be made here. We do not capitalize the names of non-trademarked sports and games, ever. We even just had an RfC about this shortly before this RM, and it concluded with the same result (again) as previous discussions about this. We play football and poker, not "Football" and "Poker". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]