Talk:No Pussyfooting/Archive 1, Album Title

Album title

The correct name of this album is "Fripp & Eno (no pussyfooting)", not just "No Pussyfooting". i.e. it's a bit of a little joke, as in "Frip and Eno (no mucking about)"

This is also a reference to "Heavenly Music Corporation" basically being a one-take recording of a live improvisation, as well as the fact they favour quick and improvised working methods in general.

The name of the page should be changed!--feline1 11:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to believe you. But I'd also like to see some documentation on that.

At All Music Guide, Amazon, and this discography its just "No Pussyfooting". At Eno Web it's "(No Pussyfooting)" (with parentheses). Since the cover of most albums have the artist's (artists') name (names) and then the title of the album, I would believe that this page should be moved to (No Pussyfooting) rather than Fripp & Eno (No Pussyfooting).

I tend to agree that calling it Fripp & Eno (No Pussyfooting) seems like calling the Beatles sophomore album The Beatles With The Beatles. Based on your apparent rationale (with lack of any proof) and the evidence I have available (I'm currently looking at and comparing all 3 albums), the subsequent albums that Eno and Fripp collaborated on should correctly be titled Fripp & Eno Evening Star and Fripp & Eno The Equatorial Stars. -- Krash 00:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you're talking rubbish:

• Citing 'Amazon' or the 'All Music Guide' as "evidence" for how an album should be named is ridiculous - those sites deal with thousands of titles, with the data input done by people who know nothing about the products.
• The only "proof" you need is an understanding of the English language! As I have already explained, the title is a little play on words referring to Fripp & Eno's working techniques. The brackets are there (like most punctuation) to help the reader appreciate how the words would be said if they were spoken: they would be spoken as a little 'aside'. It is an eponymous debut album, "Fripp & Eno", but with the little bracketed aside comment, "(No Pussyfooting)" (i.e. "(No Mucking About)"). Even if you can't understand the wordplay, you can see that the brackets belong there by looking at the album sleeve. It would make no sense to simply have the brackets round (no pussyfooting) if it wasn't to indicate that it was an "aside" remark after saying "Fripp and Eno".
• Your conclusion that the other Fripp & Eno albums should include the artist names in the title is bizarre and wrong. The reason they belong in the title of the first album is to make the little joke work. There is no joke or wordplay in the the other titles. They are just titles. "Evening Star" by Fripp and Eno; "The Equatorial Stars" by Fripp and Eno. Frankly, I cannot understand how you could not understand the difference between there being wordplay in the first album's title, but none in the second two. If you can't understand this, I would respectfully submit that you are not competant to make any kind of judgement on this issue. --feline1 12:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish, huh? Let's keep the discussion on track here.

I never referred to All Music or Amazon as 'evidence'. The only evidence I have is the three albums. Each has the name of the artist in big letters and then the title of the album under that in slightly smaller letters. This precedence has been instilled in me by the music industry for quite some time. I agree that it would be most uncharacteristic for Eno to follow convention and that, so often, things are done "outside the box" for some esoteric reason.

But if this were as obvious as you would make it out to seem, I would think that SOMETHING (like perhaps one of the largest vendors of compact discs or the review site that is most frequently cited here with respect to album articles) would reflect this.

That's all I'm asking. The burden of proof lies on your shoulders.

I apologize if my unrefined American intellect is too underdeveloped to understand the obviousness of this apparent pun. -- Krash 14:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"Appeal to ridicule"? - well, some things *are* ridiculous, and I never find ridiculous rhetoric very appealing. Does that make me bad? :-p Asking me to prove that the use of brackets in the phrase "Fripp & Eno (no pussyfooting)" indicates a pun is (almost) as ridiculous as asking me to prove that the letters "Fripp & Eno" printed on the sleeve was intended to indicate that the album was by "Fripp" and, indeed, "Eno" - it is not necessary to "prove" that, as it is by far and away the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw. Likewise, by far and away the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw about the use of brackets in the album title is that it is intended to be read as a little aside, as in "Fripp & Eno (no mucking about)" or "Fripp and Eno (no dilly-dallying)" or "Fripp and Eno (no spending 2 years making an album when you can do it in 2 hours)". This can be clearly deduced by being familiar with the English language, particular cockney speech patterns, and by being aware of Fripp & Eno's working methods, which are even described on the album's own sleeve notes. If you favour a different interpretation, it is up to you to "prove" otherwise. The fact that Amazon don't you brackets and refer to the album simply as "No Pussyfooting" actually SUPPORTS my view: putting the title as entirely parenthetical, i.e. (No Pussyfooting), without being juxtaposed beside Fripp & Eno does not make sense: parentheses bracket off a part of a larger string of text - it's meaningless to bracket off an isolated piece of text. Which is presumeably why some data entry clerk at Amazon didn't do it. And why the title is best read as Fripp & Eno (no pussyfooting). The end.--feline1 17:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm not moving it. And I'm not going to throw a fit if you do. I just wish that you could point me in the direction of something that reflects the basis for your viewpoint. I wonder how they reached a concensus over at Led Zeppelin IV... -- Krash 18:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The only way you would 'settle' the issue is by asking Mssrs. Robert Fripp and Brian Eno themselves. Until then, wikipedia must, as ever, rely on the collective intelligence of its contributors...--feline1 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

In the spirit of Feline1's statement I checked the DGM Live site. They list the CD as "Robert Fripp & Brian Eno - No Pussyfooting" (interestingly, the parentheses are omitted). To compare, they list the other album as "Robert Fripp & Brian Eno - Evening Star". Personally I believe the album was originally intended to be eponymous with a parenthetical addition (proof? none), but eponymous albums have always proven a challenge when cataloguing. Additionally, I think this discussion puts in relief Wikipedia's lack of a titling standard regarding art and literature. For the title of any article about specific books, albums, etc. Wikipedia should require the author's or artist's name as a separate component for purposes of "disambiguation". Which might be helpful here. Rphunt 23:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)