Talk:No Cards

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Gilbert and Sullivan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Gilbert and SullivanWikipedia:WikiProject Gilbert and SullivanTemplate:WikiProject Gilbert and SullivanGilbert and Sullivan articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Composer

An editor has twice suggested that Joseph Benjamin Williams may have composed "No Cards". However, none of the references that he cites provide any support for this assertion, other than the fact that he was the publisher's son and composed another short Gilbert work, Eyes and No Eyes. We need a published source to actually support the claim. I find this assertion particularly dubious, in view of the fact that although several bios about him are cited, none of them suggests that he had anything to do with "No Cards"; this strongly implies that he had nothing to do with it. See this important policy: WP:V. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is it being contested that Joseph Benjamin Williams (1847-1923) used the pseudonym "Lionel Elliott"? (see [International Music Score Library Project (IMSLP)]). If he did, then he seems a much more likely candidate than the "J. W. Elliot" currently cited. -- User:Regwik 18:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I do not find this citation persuasive. Furthermore, like the others, it lists "Eyes and No Eyes" and other "Florian Pascal" works, but it does NOT list "No Cards". It does not assert that he composed anything under the name Lionel Elliott. this does not mention Elliott or "No Cards". Please see WP:Verifiability, our police on using references. See also WP:Reliable sources. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:59, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is the suggested "J. W. Elliot" attribution persuasive or verifiable? Have I missed something? -- User:Regwik 22:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a direct quote from a Gilbert biography by Jane Stedman, an acknowledged Gilbert and Sullivan expert. This biography is one of the standard Gilbert biographies. It is verifiable because we have provided the page number in the book where you can find the quote. If you can find a WP:Reliable source that specifically says that Williams is or even might be the composer of "No Cards", we would be happy to quote that source. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The point you are missing here is that Stedman's "faintly possible" attribution is itself complete speculation. Just because this piece of speculation got published does not make it reliable or verifiable. I am surprised that you think providing "the page number in the book" is a form of verification. -- User:Regwik 18:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry, that is how Wikipedia works - it is one of our core policies. Read the policy! It says that "verifiability" means "whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." We can note that Stedman speculates about something (and we make clear that she is speculating), but you and I cannot speculate. See WP:Original research. I am not making up the rules here. The encyclopedia depends completely on published sources that are considered to be WP:RS. It cannot depend upon the speculations of someone called Ssilvers or someone called Regwik. So, again, if you find a reliable published source to say that Williams had anything to do with "No Cards", we will be happy to cite it. BTW, if you want to learn about contributing to this encyclopedia, please read the editing guidelines that someone kindly linked at the top of your talk page. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa! Wikipedia ground rules are paramount. Personal research, however ingenious, is not acceptable. For any statement a published citation must be available. If Regwik has any such citable evidence that Joseph Benjamin Williams composed the score, he/she can, and I hope will, cite it. Otherwise it is personal speculation, which is by WP rules inadmissible. It is, as Ssilvers rightly says, admissible to say that "published source X" speculates such-and-such, but it is not admissible to chuck in one's own speculation. Tim riley (talk) 18:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My only "evidence" is that both Library of Congress and the National Library of Australia include "Lionel Elliott" as one of the many pseudonyms used by Joseph Benjamin Williams (1847-1923) - see the [Virtual International Authority File] which lists Florian Pascal, Lionel Elliott, Pierre Duchêsnes, Arthur Grenville, Emlyn St. Maur, Mark Calmond, J. B. Waldeck, Charles Tourville, and Conrad Huber. I assume that these two institutions do not indulge in idle speculation but have published sources to which I myself do not have access. Nevertheless, since no one has ever come up with a credible suggestion as to who the "Lionel Elliott" who wrote "No Cards" might be, it seemed to me to be quite reasonable to at least raise it as a possibility for further investigation. I did not expect to meet such a defensive barrage.~~-- User:Regwik 21:00, 3 Aug 2011 (UTC)

Sorry you're disappointed. We agree that your source lists, without citation or example, that "Lionel Elliott" was a pseudonym used by Williams, but it does not suggest that he had anything to do with "No Cards". It is one of the three fundamental precepts of this encyclopedia that editors are not allowed to write any "analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources.". The guideline clearly states that we may not "advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source..." and "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. You are trying to combine one source that says that this was one of his pseudonyms, with another source that says that No Cards was composed by someone using the same pseudonym. So, unless you can find a WP:Reliable source that says: "it is possible that this person composed "No Cards"", then we cannot say so. If you think about it, you will see why this rule has been essential to the success of this encyclopedia. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I could cite thousands upon thousands of perfectly good and useful Wikipedia entries that do not slavishly follow your "rule" - but this has become a dialogue of the deaf so I'm out. ~~-- User:Regwik 2:15, 9 Aug 2011 (UTC)