Talk:No. 14 Squadron RAF

November 1917 dubious tag

It is claimed the Seventh Ottoman Army was disintegrating in November 1917 during the Battle of Nablus, but these two things occurred in September 1918. In November 1917, just after the victory at the Battle of Beersheba (1917) the Battle of Mughar Ridge was won and the Battle of Jerusalem (1917) was in progress. --Rskp (talk) 03:24, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

rewritten to clarify: The squadron received new aircraft in Nov 1917, the actions took place subsequently. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Dubious motto translation

The president of East & West Communications, a company that specializes in translation and multilingual communications, permitted me to post a comment originally written to OTRS: "Please note that the Arabic motto in the logo is not from the Qoran, it is not a translation of the English motto, and it does not actually say anything intelligible in Arabic!"

Considering the nature of this person's business, I would consider that as a reliable statement, and on that basis I am removing the unsourced translation of the motto from the infobox. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:38, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Here is the proper translation of the Arabic motto that renders the English version 'I spread my wings and keep my promise' faithfully.

أبسط جناحيّ وأفي بعهدي

Suggest that your webmaster either replace the old one with the new, or include two versions of the badge, one with the old incorrect Arabic motto, and another one with the correct translation as proposed along with the above contributed explanations and recommendation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heltaher25 (talk • contribs) 5 May 2014

The official RAF website HERE confirms that the "arabic script" in the wikipedia image is correct for the squadron badge. It may not mean the same as the motto - it may not mean anything intelligible at all - but it IS in the logo, so the image should remain as it is. The squadron motto remains as stated, even if not as depicted in the badge, so I've reinstated that change. The UK MoD can be considered a WP:RS in this regard, unless and until a published source can be identified to show different. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 18:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I have removed it again. It's fine to include the motto in Arabic, and nobody had recommended removing it. But if it doesn't actually mean what the English translation says, then it is misleading to include it. A Wikipedia article shouldn't be making authoritative claims about things that are clearly mis-translations.

Bottom line, that "official" source is in error. The motto doesn't actually say that in English, and it isn't from the Koran as claimed. Those two facts disqualify it from being WP:RS. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:18, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you miss the point. The badge of the Squadron is as depicted (and as approved by HRH King George VI in 1937). The motto of the Squadron is as stated. The origin of the motto being given to / adopted by the squadron in 1917 when serving in Egypt is a well documented historical fact, so it still remains (in English) the motto of the squadron and therefore should remain in the article.

The part that is possibly disputed - and I have left it out - is that it is in Arabic and is a quote from the Qu'ran, although that is what was believed to have been the case, again, in 1917. As for the Arabic-looking script on the badge, I don't speak or read Arabic - so I cannot comment on the translation, but most translations (regardless of the languages involved ) are not exact matches, and open to some interpretation - more so when the culture, grammar and alphabet are all very different. Unless there is a reliable source that has published what it DOES mean, the fact that various sources quote it as meaning what it purports to mean should be included in the article.

For what it's worth, I believe it is likely that the script was given to the RAF by the Emir of Transjordan in aural and written form, and was copied (perhaps several times) onto the badge by British, non-arabic speakers to whom it would have not meant anything more than a series of curved lines, marks and dots. hence the apparent meaninglessness of the current iteration. So the motto is correct, the "translation" on the badge may not be accurate, but it is part of the badge. I'll replace it again. If you still cannot accept that this is the correct course of action, then perhaps we will need to seek a third opinion, or resolve this by another means. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 21:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaving out the part that it's an Arabic quotation from the Quran is a good compromise. While we are not in disagreement, it would be good to have a third set of eyes on this. I'll make a request over at Wikipedia:Third opinion. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I agree that your compromise is a good one. Thanks for inviting a third opinion. Stfg (talk) 15:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Nickname

I see there has been some disagreement and downright vandalism in regard to the nickname being dropped. Genuine question - is this worth mentioning? The Daily Telegraph has a report in it today about the nickname being dropped due to it being offensive. It's a reliable source, but is the event noteworthy? Regards. The joy of all things (talk) 07:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be worth mentioning in the history section that (i) the unofficial nickname was "The Crusaders" and (ii) the nickname was abandoned in July 2024 on the basis that it might be offensive to minorities. Dormskirk (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Y Done, thanks Dormskirk The joy of all things (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

References