Talk:Nizami Ganjavi/Archive 7

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stable introduction

Anyhow, these discussions can go forever, it is just important to keep things stable and hopefully time will eventually get rid off falsehood. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

OK.. I have to agree with you for now. Thanks for clarifications. Xashaiar (talk) 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

his heritage

The lead states "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Republic of Azerbaijan, Afghanestan,..." I would like to understand what this means? Otherwise I would like to remove "Azarbaijan". As far as Nezami the poet is concerned he had no idea what turkic-language is. This is well explained in the article. Now does the sentence I am criticising try to say "the translation of Ganjavi's poetry"? If so this must be stated explicitly. Because everyone knows that poetry is not translatable and hence translated version of Ganjavi's poetry has almost no relation to Nezami ganjavi. Or does the sentence means "grave of Nezami Ganjavi" is appreciated? If so, this must be mentioned, because appreciation of graves is quite interesting and new. In either case the sentence should become "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Iran and persian speaking countries". But to add azerbaijan we should mention either "through modern translation by XYZ" or "because of a claim that his tomb is located there".--Xashaiar (talk) 10:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are right there was no Azerbaijani-Turkish language, ethnicity, culture and etc. during the time of Nezami[1](And I mean this in a scientific sense just like there was no Mexican or American culture or Modern English (it was Middle English and some groups in history appear later than others)). Overall, it seems the attempted political detachment of Nezami Ganjavi from Persian civilization is recognized by authors who write about the former USSR: Yo'av Karny, “Highlanders : A Journey to the Caucasus in Quest of Memory”, Published by Macmillan, 2000. Pg 124: “In 1991 he published a translation into Khynalug of the famous medieval poet Nezami, who is known as Persian but is claimed by Azeri nationalists as their own." However I think the lead is good.. It will keep away vandals and also a good source (Cambridge history of Iran): " Modern Azarbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world famous son". So the USSR nation building did popularize him somewhat. Someone sent me an article from Russian wikipedia about politicization of Nezami from an author name Tamashzivilli and wanted to put it in English. I simply said there is no need for it now. Basically my approach has been to be completely scientific (well not hundred percent for example see the latin alphabets in the intro or the intro itself) and try to maintain a friendly atmosphere for the article. Azerbaijan the country can also be proud of Nezami even if they can't read his masterpieces (translations obviously are poor and the words of the master are so tied to the language that probably Nezami is the most difficult poet to translate from Persian due to his play with words) and it is no big deal if we say he is a shared heritage by the Iran/Persian world (Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Persian speakers, Kurds..) and Azerbaijan the country. He is a Persian poet and he had Iranic ancestry(both mother and father's lineage who go back before the Seljuq era even, so making the change of him being a Turkmen nomad that became an urban Ganja urban dweler from his fatherside zero and he was orphaned from his father), but had he written his work in Arabic, he would be an Arabic poet. Nasimi/Esmail I who did not have Turkmen/Oghuz fatherlines are Azeri-Turkic poets or Pushkin is a Russian poet. This is the general scholarly convention used by Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, and etc, specially in an era when nationalities based on citizenship and state did not exist (Medieval Muslim world). For now the article is peaceful but if anyone pushes some sort of nationalistic pan-Turkism, we can just take it to mediation/arbcomm and permanently settle it and it is obvious administrators will go with what Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, Britannica and even what Azerbaijani officials say about Western Europe"Most in Europe consider Nizami a Persian poet."[2] (the delegate does not know that there was no Azerbaijani-Turkic at the time of Nezami..). Note I say this simply from scholarly viewpoint as I have no ill feeling towards any editor or group due to their background, but simply we should not tolerate nationalistic nation building from any country or group (including ourselves) in this Encyclopedia. The term Azerbaijani itself in the Stalin/USSR (in actually when the USSR said "Azerbaijani" at least up 1970 they meant Medes/Caucasian Albanians where-as these population did not speak Turkic) was modified to mean different thing and now that they are independent, they can start more scientific and fresh historiography and in the end a large literature/history or etc. does not make any individual better although Azeri-Turkic itself has impressive literature (Fizuli, Nasimi..) relative to most languages of the world. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

So basically just keep the introduction, it does no harm, but if there are arguments, it can be changed to Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica, Iranica, even nationalistic Turkish scholars and most references with Persian poet on the first line (that will create vandals obviously but then admins will get involved). So overall the article can serve as an example of how a politicized issue can be peacefully written and some compromises made, specially with the sometimes tense atmosphere. I hope it remains peaceful like it has basically in the past two years and so, as Iranian users are not looking to have conflicts with users of any country, but simply keep their own heritage from politicization (which we criticize actions not human beings and not the vast majority of any citizen of any place and in this case the politicization is due to USSR and even Berteles was forced against his will as described by Tamashzivilli as he had Persian poet up 1935 until USSR nation building started and non-existent terms at the time of Nezami like Azerbaijani were ascribed to him and Azerbaijani it was described as Medes/Caucasian Albanians instead of Turkic (although heavy influence from Iranian languages/dna is present but scientifically it is a Turkic language). The same happened to Babak Khorramdin, Atropates, Medes, Zarathustra which are heritages of Iranian civilization..but this was due to USSR nation building (and the local population had no control) and these characters(such as Babak or Atropates) were not Turks either linguistically, culturallly or ethnically. Hopefully with the demise of USSR more scientific approaches to historiography will take place.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 20:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Basically I second Nepaheshgar here. The fact he had no idea what Turkic languages are does not cancel the fact that his heritage is appreciated in other countries. I see no reason of removal. It's interesting, that from different countries mentioned Xashaiar wants to remove only Azerbaijan. Brandt 21:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Still the argument stands. If "appreciation of Nezami in republic of Azerbaijan" is through translation it should be mentioned + the translator who made him more popular.--Xashaiar (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The actual full translations to Azeri-Turkic were made around the time WWII, but still there is no problem and no big deal with the intro. Since these countries today are the ones that share in his heritage. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. Though I meant it "nezami the poet", and made it clear that Nezami as a person from Ganja has certainly a heritage. But over all I agree with you here.--Xashaiar (talk) 21:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes trust me I have been basically burdened with all sorts of unpleasent folks in this article. Here was one right now: [[3]] who is the typical pan-Turkist types. What simply matters is WP:weight, WP:RS and etc and even Azerbaijani ambassador admits majority of Western scholars mainly consider Nezami a Persian poet and some governments admit it too, will obviously try to change it [4]. There seems to be an inherent hostility towards Iranians in general and Iranics/Persians in particular from the USSR era amongst some of the people of Caucusus Azerbaijan due to political philosophies such as pan-Turkism (although it is not serious as that of the hostility against Armenians but you can detect this hostility in lots of USSR era work and that sort of hostility manifests itself too in Wikipedia once in a while like the user I just mentioned), but I have done my best to simply criticize actions/ideas and not people. So if you see messages like these [[[[5]]]], just delete them from the page. I tried to make it simple as I can, so both sides can share in his heritage despite their different opinions about his father's background (whom he was orphaned from anyhow). That is say his heritage is appreciate by Persian/Iranian world and also the modern Azeri-Turkic speaking country of the republic of Azerbaijan. We all agree on that and it is a constructive statement. And at the same time, based on very politically-motivated and untainble arguments, some nationalists claim his father was Turkic, and so I basically even have external links providing both views, and in the article I have provided a source for differences on his father's origin (with the exception of the fact that the source has changed her mind [6]). Fact is as Christine van Ruymbeke says, there is virtually nothing left on Nezami's biography. Also unlike any major Encyclopedia (Iranica, Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam, and overwhelming sources), I have not put Persian poet on the first line of the entry, but if I am not around and you see constant hostility and insults like these: [[7]] feel free to take it to mediation and arbcomm. The external source or two discussing the issue also leaves it up to the reader to decide the matter of his father's background whom he was orphaned from an early age (and raised by his Kurdish uncle and his mother tongue being Kurdish and Kurds of course being parts of Iranic peoples). Obviously just a simple glance at google books, Encyclopedias and etc., and taking it to mediation and then arbcomm will get a much stronger viewpoint but in reality despite being insulted (just look at the guy I deleted his message), I have kept calm, since we are simply trying to state the truth on what is easily considered Iranian heritage. Inside Wikipedia at least, we need to make sure the atmosphere is always peaceful. Outside of Wiki, I criticize USSR historiography and politicizations without belittling any group. Simply, he is a Iranian poet based on culture/language/ethnic (Iranic ancestry motherside and almost likely fatherside and raised by Kurdish uncle), just like Shah Esmail I is a Azeri-Turkic poet (despite say Kurdish ancestory) In the long term or Shahriyar is an Azeri-Turkic poet (despite Arab fatherline and writing 90% of his work in Persian actually), any serious scholar studying (those that are serious and not looking for nation building stuff) Nezami will have to learn Persian (as the verses are simply lost in translation as his verses are completely tied to the language usage and then it is pretty clear he is part of the Irano-Islamic world based on simply the cultural contents of the work). Of course once the urban Turkish culture developed (say Ottoman empire, and Chagatay Turkish), it was very close and almost identical to urban Iranian culture in terms of religion, outlook, themes of poetry and thinking with the difference of language and also started its own rich culture. Unfortunately though, the Ottoman language was extinguished by force and Chagatay natually died off. Anyhow, not too diverge, if I were to follow simply WP:weight, WP:RS and etc., and even same take it mediation and then arbitration, it will lead to a bad atmosphere where-as the opening sentence is constructive (opens up a friendly atmosphere). So even if it is by translation from the era of WWII, it is fine. A good entry on him is Encyclopedia of Islam one by Peter Chelkowsi who also has a book on Nezami's work. Encyclopedia of Islam sets basically the standard for scholarship on the area and serious scholars will follow it. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

In Khosrow and Shirin for example Nizami mentions a Barda ruler and a beauty from the same town. Brandt 22:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes that is Mahin Banu (Persian for : "Greatest Lady"), mythic queen of what Nezami calls lands of Arran and Armenia in Khusraw and Shirin. Also Nushaba (Persian for Life Giving Water) was also the Queen of Barda'. Barda' is shown 11 times in a search on Nezami's work, Iran is shown 31 times, 'Ajam as a land is shown 15 times (Nezami calling the Eldiguzid ruler as king of land of 'Ajam(Persia)), Arran is shown 1 time, Azarbayegaan (1 time spelled as in Vis o Ramin), Azar Abaadegaan (2 times as in Shahnameh spelling), Armenia is 21 times spelled as ارمن(arman). Overall this shows his culture is regionally appreciated (whatever are view might be about anything else) and so I think the intro captures that. In terms of cities, Barda' is definitely among one of the highest. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I undid user who removed proper category (Kurdish people)[8]. As it is well known Nezami's mother and maternal uncle who raised him were Kurdish (see this [9]). Also the ethnicity of his father was probably Iranic, but since he was orphaned from him early as well as there is no agreement, it was left out. Even the birth city of his father is unknown. However, it could not be "Azerbaijani" as such an ethnonym/ethnic group was not formed back then. One could hypothetize "Oghuz Turk" (the Azerbaijani dialect being later formed from one of its branches and influenced by non-Turkic languages) however Nezami's ancestry goes back before the advent of Seljuqs and was of an urban non-nomadic background, and the culture (as well as what is in his work and the Sassanid stories he chose) makes such a scenario very unlikely: (see Nozhat al-Majales for the culture and language of that era) [10] and frankly irrelevant. However as a region, "Azerbaijani/Arranian" is correct (that is reflected as he was born in Ganja) but not as a people and some sources mention people by region(context and history timeline makes it clear) (eg. is Bahmanyar who was a Zoroastrian Persian). The introduction though has the Azerbaijani language spelling although again that is bit of anachronism, but there is no reason to remove it as his legacy is appreciated. So removal of Kurdish people category is against Wikipedia WP:vandalism policy. See also here: [11]. --Pahlavannariman (talk) 17:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Nizami was born and lived in Azerbaijan. He knew wat turkic 9not turkish, because the second is use in Turkey. He mentioned it in Leyla and Majnun. He told that he wanted to write in turkic, but could not. Because the rule of that time wante hoim to write it in persian. we have no pro that he wrote in turkic, but he used turkic proverbs in persian language. This proverbs is being used in Azerbaijan widely, even in XXI century. The fact that his mother is kurdish is arguable, because he said that his mother is a daughter of qurd (wolf- the ancestor for turks). And he had neer mntioned Armenia, he wrote Armen (Ərmən- the lan of heros). His heritage is appreciated and shared in Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan deserves it, because he is from the city of Azerbaijan. Besides, Azerbaijani is not a dialect, but a language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.25.17.90 (talk) 10:56, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

wikipedia again fails to protect the properity of some nations!

This is really shame on you to change the origin of the poet of Azerbaijan- Nizami Ganjavi(Nezami Ganjavi ). Any one may refer to internet resourses or any historical resourses. But i see some peaople enjoy the free edition of wikipedia.

again shame on you- who denote this article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neldarov1986 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Khamsa or Khamse?

Please make consistent.

Ed8r (talk) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Khamse is the Persian pronunciation. Khamsa is the Turkic. the word comes from Arabic word KhamsatPouyakhani (talk) 15:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

NIZAMI GENCEVI — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamran 552 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Nizami Ganjavi. Replacing a dab page requires more justification. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Nezami Ganjavi → Nizami or Nizami Ganjavi – per WP:COMMONNAME

• "Nezami Ganjavi" -Llc 86
• "Nizami Ganjavi" -Llc 271
• "Nizami" -Llc 275

When we prefer Nizami, the title of Nizami will be changed to Nizami (disambiguation).

-- Takabeg (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

removal by user Kurdo777

Kurdo777 has been engaged in multiple malicious edits, one of which is removal of category of "Azerbaijani people" from this article, despite the fact that it has been there for well over a year, and that Nizami was obviously an "Azerbaijani people" as he lived and died in Azerbaijan as was evidences in discussions here and historic facts, such as in K.Luther, “Atabakan-e Adarbayjan”, Encyclopaedia Iranica [12]. --Saygi1 (talk) 22:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the definition of Category:Azerbaijani people, This category page lists notable citizens of Azerbaijan. Note: People who were from Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic are listed at Category:People from Azerbaijan. Takabeg (talk) 23:44, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Nizami Ganjavi Museum - Baku.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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'Makhzan al-Asrar

Makhzan (in Persian) in Persian language ( and not necessarily in Arabic ) tends to show a reservoir or a tank of non precious material , in case of the high value materials the word Ganj (in Persian) is often used . As an example the word (in Persian) - Makhzan e Aab - ( Water tank or Water pool ) is right, but Ganj e Aab is wrong . In contrast , Makhzan e Tala ( The treasure of gold ) is not in use but Ganj e Tala is the common form in use .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not gonna argue about the meaning of the poem's name, I just see that the most prevalent English translation is "The treasury of mysteries": [13] Also, so is called the English translation: [14] So we need to use the most prevalent English name. Grandmaster 21:55, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Supremo1077

I undid [15]. Historical accuracy (which is what we are after) dictates that the term "Azerbaijani Turk" as an ethnicity is anachronistic for the 12th century (many sources can be cited with this regard), and one must use "Oghuz", "Turcoman" or "Qifchaq" if they want to reference any Altaic speaking groupg in the 12th century of the Caucasus. The urban Muslim people of Arran and Azerbaijan in the 12th century spoke Iranian languages as exemplified by the Nozhat al-Majales,..or the toponyms from various sources around Ganja of the time (e.g. chandari mentioned by Gandzastki for tree name in Ganja or Sang-e- nim Daang..or the word Ganja itself is fairly clear, and the Oghuz nomads entered the area only in 1075 A.D. and were not urban dwellers who wrote about Persian cultural heritage through Persian poetry). Azerbaijan in the 12th century is a geographical region, with no ethnic meaning; where some scholars might use Azerbaijan/Azerbaijani for the modern territory for the 12th century as a non-ethnic term although this itself has some problems as Nezami, Khaqani, Abu 'Ala Ganjavi have consistently used Arran and Sharvan in their poetry for their land and have mentioned these as part of Persia/Iran (see book below)[16]. The overwhelming sources (specially the ones by Nezami specialists such as Orsatti, Chelkowski, Gohrab, Talatoff, etc, Encyclopaedia of Islam and recent scholarly books)[17] consistently refer to him as Iranian/Persian poet, thinker, writer, mystic, etc. And there exist several good scholarly sources criticizing the WP:fringe view (see here:[18] or back reviews: [19] as well book reviews. Be that may, in Wikipedia, this problem will possibly persist unless there is mediation and arbcomm. If there is a such thing in the future, I suggest removing the anachronistic Azeri alphabet in the intro (as such an alphabet and language did not exist at that time), and re-inserting hosts of sources about politicization of Nezami [20] (which shows that other ideas are WP:fringe). This suggestion is not because of any battle field mentality, but the actual distortion of history for ethno-nationalist reasons which started by USSR is an abuse of history. However if it decided one day to give any weight to fringe ideas, then one can use recent book which mentions, and then invalidates many of the the politicized 20th century etho nationalist readings of Nezami by USSR/Turkish nationalist authors [21](first book review here [22] by Prof. Kamran Talatoff: (with more book reviews in the future by Prof. Paolo Orsatti, George Bourtounian and possibly Peter Chelkowski in the future). Unfortunately, the hands of nation building, modern nationalism and nationalist politicization shows itself with regards to Nezami,..which will eventually stop one day although perhaps not now, but in the next few decades as people in the region get wiser. Local governments efforts to politicize Nezami for modern nation building, spend millions building monument and present Nezami as a "Turk who wrote Azerbaijani literature" is not scientific and ultimately it will be criticized by more scholars (as it has been increasing now). It also does not make any impact in the mind of modern European based and Western Nezami scholars (those who actually write books and articles on the subject). For example, Nezami references his own poetry as Persian pearl and Persian poetry, and has never used such an anachronistic terms, but the government of Azerbaijan claims he wrote "Azerbaijani poetry". Scientifically speaking (again no battle field mentality but scientific), there was no concept of "Azerbaijani" ethnic group, culture, language or ethnicity in the 12th century; Turcoman Oghuz nomads (whose main contribution to modern Azerbaijanis of the Caucasus is language with Iranian/Arabic admixtures rather than many other cultural aspects) who had entered the area had a totally different culture (one that was nomadic and which shows itself in the 15/16th century work of Dede Qorqud) than that of the Persian culture of Nezami. Be that it may, I mainly undid the user above and did not distrub the intro or re-add quotes on politicization of Nezami as I am not interested in drama. For example the quote: "the world is a body, Iran is its heart.."[23] or various quotes by experts on politicization/distortions such as Viktor Schnirelman, Franger, etc. In the Russian wikipedia actually there is a separate article about politicization of Nezami, which again is not something that interests me [24]. But in the future, if I am around or if other users are around, and they see problems with this article, they should immmediately take it to mediation and Arbcomm, and create an article like the Russian wikipedia on the politicized based on numerous sources [25][26][27].

However, all of this is a waste of user's time and effort. So lets forget all that. It is simply best to stick with the best sources such as the succint article in Encyclopaedia of Islam or the articles about the works of Nezami (in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Iranica), and leave out modern politics from the article for good. Overwhelmingly, it is clear all of the specialized sources on Nezami (not for example a random google books which the authors do not even know Persian or do not specialize in Nezami or their book is not specific to Nezami) mention Persian heritage, culture, Iranian background etc. One does not find such specialists mentioning Turkish heritage, Turkish culture or Turkish background and wikipedia ultimately has to reflect mainstream scholarship. And although there is now good scholarship of the politicization of Nezami (like the mentioned article in Russian wikipedia)..I still believe we should keep it out of English wikipedia (not because it does not meet scholarly criteria which it does now with numerous sources from Franger, Schnirerlman, Tazamishvilli, etc.. but just my own personal distate for politicization of history). However, this is just my personal taste and if users in the future consistently see vandalism, nationalist propaganda and etc.., they should take it Arbcomm and create the English equivalent of the mentioned Russian Wikipedia article; that is as remedy to such vandalism, the unfortunate phenomenon of politicization should be mentioned if such vandalism persists. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

vandalism by Supremo1077

User:Supremo1077 do not change the texts that reference sources. I think this is a new user and I have hid the tags in the diologue box as a way to stop such vandalism. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC) Well incase such users show up in the future and become persisent, one should take them to arbcomm and e-mail modern Western scholars of Nezami. I have written here: [28][29] and here [30][31] about this issue of vandalism. This book[32] which is peer reviewed with future reviews coming from Nezami scholars (e.g. Orsatti, Meneghini, etc.) covers the abuse of Nezami which occurs regularly by new users. It is hoped that one day, all this politically motivated distortion of history stops as no one benefits from it.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 04:14, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Chelkowski Book for free

[33] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.27.24 (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC) Mirror of the Invisible World.

Azerbaijani name of Nizami Ganjavi

Azerbaijani name of Nizami Ganjavi should be mentioned in this article. The poet lived whole his life in Ganja. This is a city of Azerbaijan, not in Iran and never was in Iran. The population of this city are Azerbaijani people and they speak in Azeri. Nizami Ganjavi has a direct relationship to this city, not another populated by Persians or Kurds. Even the mausoleum of Nizami is in Ganja. All of this are big reasons to add Azerbaijani name of poet.
P.S. Actually, I don't see such big reasons to add Kurdish name. If some authors claim that his mother was Kurd it's not a reason to add Kurdish name. --Interfase (talk) 06:45, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Well then we could remove the Kurdish name, but i see no reason for his name to be in Azari, since the population of Ganja was during that period Iranian (as mentioned in the article), and during that period it was not known as Azerbaijan, my friend. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:46, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I already showed you even not one reason why his name should be written in Azeri (not "Azari" by the way). The main reason is that the city where Nizami Ganjavi was born, lived all his life and dead, is in Azerbaijan. Ganja never was part of Iran. Nizami Ganjavi is a Cultural Heritage of Azerbaijan, not Iran.

P.S. By the way during the period of Nizami Ganjavi, Ganja was ruled bu Atabegs of Azerbaijan. Even at that time Ganja was a part of Azerbaijan, my friend. --Interfase (talk) 10:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

So what? he never wrote in Azeri Turkic nor did he live in a Azeri Turkic populated area, and the historical Azerbaijan was in northern Iran, the present day country named Azerbaijan was named Arran. Azerbaijan is a modern name used for Arran. By the way, it was under Shirvanshah control. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I see you have poor knowledge about the history of Azerbaijan. Firstly, Arran was not a country. It was a historical region. Secondly, in the 12th-13th cc. Shirvanshahs didn't control Ganja. Thirdly, historical Azerbaijan was not in northern Iran all periods of history. During some period such regions like Nakhchivan, Eriwan were part of historical Azerbaijan. And during the period of Nizami even Ganja was a part of this region as Ganja was ruled by the Atagegs of Azerbaijan. And if he never wrote in Azeri Turkic it doesn't mean that you should remove Azeri name. By the way, you removed Azerbaijani name without consensus here. So please don't remove Azeri name untill we will not reach a consensus on a talk page. See WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EW. --Interfase (talk) 20:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said that Arran was a country, i said that it was not known as Azerbaijan during that period, and yes Arran is a historical region, hence people called the place Arran, not Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan was in northern Iran. The name Azerbaijan used for a country in the Caucasus is a modern term. Yes, the Shirvanshahs did actually control the area, i suppose you haven't read the Nizami Ganjavi article? do yourself a favor and do that. I can't believe i am discussing this with a person who even denied that he was of Persian origin. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

It is unclear to me why his name should be written in both Kurdish, Persian and Azari. As he was Iranian, Persian should be enough in my opinion. If the cultural outreach determines the amount, it should not be confined to only Kurdish, Persian and Azari - and this would have to be the case for many, many other poets. That being said, I don't regard this as a major issue. Borek 9 (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Remove both names in Azeri and Kurdish. Nizami was a Persian/Persian-speaking poet. He is a part of Persian and Iranian culture. He has nothing to do with modern ethnicity Azeri and Turkic-speaking peoples. Azerbaijan itself is a Persian name and through the history it was a part of various Persian empires. In Nizami's era, that part of Caucasus was populated mostly by Iranic-speaking peoples and other non-Turkic groups. Nizami is too far from Turkification process of that Caucasus region. He was not Azeri. Azeri ethnicity and Azeri language did not exist on Nizami's era. The country Azerbaijan is a new country and it was a part of Iran and then Soviet Russia. No need for his name in Azeri. Because all aspects of his life and works are not related to Azeri Turkic. His name in Kurdish is also not necessary, because except his mother, Nizami's works are not Kurdish or a part of Kurdish literature. So why write Kurdish name for a Persian poet?! The only relevant non-English language in this article is Persian. No need for Azeri and Kurdish. Like Rumi article. I will remove them. DO NOT revert/undo my edit and start edit warring. The whole article is clear and Wikipedia is not a dictionary of names and personal interests. Zyma (talk) 06:36, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Nizami Ganjevi has nothing with Iran. If you don't want to learn the history of Azerbaijan, just learn its geography. Ganja was never in Iran. Of course most of Iranians want that it should be the part of Iran. But this city is a part of Azerbaijan, and never was a part of Iran, and nobody from this city never was Iranians. If you think that by removing Azerbaijani name of Nizami you will hide his relation to Azeri culture you make a mistake. Nobody can steal Nizami and claim him as a part of Iranian culture. He is a cultural heritage of Azerbaijan. If you don't believe me just open Britannica, article "Azerbaijan", section "Cultural life". Nizami Ganjevi is mentioned there. (In the course of its long history, Azerbaijan has given the world a number of outstanding thinkers, poets, and scientists… The poet and philosopher Nẹzāmī, called Ganjavī after his place of birth, Ganja, was the author of Khamseh («The Quintuplet»), composed of five romantic poems, including "The Treasure of Mysteries, " "Khosrow and Shīrīn, " and «Leyli and Mejnūn.») --Interfase (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Nizami Ganjavi. --Interfase (talk) 09:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Just be polite and don't attack other editors. Remember admins watch your edits. Also, you have a bad history on this article revision history page. Your comments are nonsense and they are against this article, cited sources, and the the history. You are influenced by the pseudo-history and fringe claims. Your comments approve that you just want to push and insert your non-constructive stuffs to this article. Attacking and writing offensive materials won't help you. Just talk about the article, not your personal stuffs. You don't listen to other editors and then why you started this consensus when you just want do your own work (not collaboration)?! Zyma (talk) 19:56, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Result: [34] I'll restore Kurdish and Azeri (previous revision) based on my suggestion on DRN section/topic. If any user want to change the lead section, please start a sub-topic on here. Please DO NOT change the lead section without consensus. --Zyma (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The result on Dispute resolution noticeboard was inclusion of the Azerbaijani version of the name, not Kurdish. So, you restored Kurdish name without consensus. Actually, I don't see big reason to include Kurdish name. As I mentioned above, if some authors claim that his mother was Kurd it's not a reason to add Kurdish name. --Interfase (talk) 18:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Pure irrelevant to his Kurdish name. Kurdish was not in the consensus. Everything is clear. Removing of Kurdish and Azeri was my suggestion. I suggested to remove both Kurdish and Azeri versions together, not just only Kurdish or only Azeri, My desired revision is using only Persian. Kurdish name was in the previous revisions and before edit warring (accepted revisions). Also your request is just related to "inclusion of Azeri version name". Nothing about the previous ones. I JUST restored the original revision before edit warring. If you have problem with his Kurdish name, it needs another consensus. THIS consensus is only about your request. Also if you read DRN exactly, The alternative name case for this article is clarified. Maybe other editors are against my previous removal revision. So we should let all involving editors decide. Not just you or me. Compare my diffs and revision with the old revisions. Very simple. Zyma (talk) 18:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2014

Nizami was not a Iranian poet it may seem like this but all the evidence lies with him. I have visited his Grave and it is Ganja, a city of Azerbaijan not Iran and The only reason he wrote in Persian because at the time Azerbaijan was under the Persian empire but this is no reason to say that he was a Persian poet. It is like saying that because i speak French & my town is under french rule so I am french. If this is your theory then if i lived in a British colony I am from Britain and I am British. If you are calling me someone who is going to vandalize the page then you are technically Saying that people who have correct info are the people who are the going to vandalize & the people with Some made up rumors Are correct. All I am asking you to do is to change Nizami's nationality from Persian to Azeri. That is all and Thank you for reading my request. My reliable sources are He was born in Ganja, lived in Ganja and died in Ganja. This even says on the page. Yet again Thank you for your time

86.155.251.162 (talk) 20:07, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Not done: If you read a little bit more it says Ganja was part of the Seljuq Empire at the time of his life. It also says "Nezami is variously mentioned as a Persian and/or Iranian.[5][20]" at the end of his "Parents" section. Cannolis (talk) 21:08, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Azeri Poet

Nizami was of Azeri Turkish origin but wrote in Persian. It is incorrect to assume he was Persian, in as much as it would be false to assume we are English for writing in English. -

 Read the above comment/section, talk page archives, and the WHOLE article with the cited references about his ethnicity/background. --Zyma (talk) 17:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2015

I've read the article about famous poet Nizami Ganjavi and I would like to make some changes if it is possible. There is written that Nizami Ganjavi is Persian poet but it is not so. He was Azerbaijani poet. First of all he was born in Ganja ( which is in Azerbaijan) . Second, In the article it is written that in Ganja there were many Iranians however this is not so. Most of population were the present Azerbaijani people. Nizami Gancavi wrote in Persian and not Azerbaijani language because Azerbaijani didn't actually have alphabet they used arabic alphabet, and nowadays they use latin alphabet.

Please take into consideration the information that I mentioned above. Thank you for your attention Inara94 (talk) 16:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

He is Persian. Every now and then Azeris keep coming and claiming he is Azeri, which he is not. If you look through the archives you can see how this has been discussed on numerous occasions and each time the conclusion has been the same, He is Persian, not Azeri. User Nepaheshgar summarized the whole argument:

Ganja at the time was mainly Persian speaking city and the cities name is Persian much like the name Azerbaijan(which applied to below the Aras), Baku, Sherwan, Darband, Beylekan, Barda' and majority of old topoynms. Actually you won't find one toponym from the area that is Turkic during the time of Nezami. So obviously if the place was Turkic, then we would not expect the overwhelming majority of toponyms to be Persian right? Also we would expect a poet to write about Dede Qorqud and Turkic/Oghuz folklores and not Sassanid and Persian/Iranian folklore right? And we would expect ordinary non-court non-scholar everyday people to use Turkic right? But more than 50-100 poets from Nezami's era most of them everyday ordinary people, some even women with lack of education have written in Persian[1] and yet there is not a single verse of Turkic from the time of Nezami fron any writer, author and etc.. There is clear evidence he was not Turkic as he uses the term for his son that refers to a person who is half Turkic (in this case his first wife was Kypchak Turkic who was sent as a gift to him). Actual Azerbaijan-Turkic identity was formed later than Nezami's time. Just like Homer does not become a Turk een though he came from modern Anatolia. Even the area of Ganja was not generally called Azerbaijan back then but Arran. Azerbaijan was below the Aras river and it is of course a Persian name, which at the time the peopel spoke Iranian languages (Old azari language). Also if one goes by fatherline (which in the case of Nezami we just know his fatherline precedes the coming of Seljuqs and if we intrepret verses then he calls himself Dehqan Parsizad (Persian Dehqan)..), then Nasimi, Shahriyar are Arabs (because they are Seyyeds!) and Shah Esmail I is a Kurdish poet. So what is the standard? Cultural identity. I use culture. So the origin of his father whom he was orphaned from and did not know is irrelavant (he was raised by his Kurdish uncle) to culture identity. But one goes by culture specially 800 year ago. Final issue is that it is Persian speakers that read him and understand him. He uses Ferdowsi as his source for three of his epics and not say Oghuz epics. Also note the only source that says in English his father might have been Turkic (since ethnonym or identity Azeri-Turkic did not exist during his time), has just changed her mind and says his father was probabily Iranian. The article though allows for differing opinions [2] within that one sentence in order to minimize (one cannot completely avoid it obviously due to USSR nation building) conflicts. That is why even a scholar that took her word back (see below) is listed. Note there is more than sufficient sources to show the area was in general Iranic(Persian and others) at the time. ( Дьяконов, Игорь Михайлович. Книга воспоминаний. Издательство "Европейский дом", Санкт-Петербург, 1995., 1995. - ISBN 5-85733-042-4. cтр. 730-731 Igor Diakonov. The book of memoirs: ( Nizami) was not Azeri but Persian (Iranian) poet, and though he lived in presently Azerbaijani city of Ganja, which, like many cities in the region, had Iranian population in Middle Ages. (russian text: (Низами) был не азербайджанский, а персидский (иранский) поэт, хотя жил он в ныне азербайджанском городе Гяндже, которая, как и большинство здешних городов, имела в Средние века иранское население).).(http://www.kulichki.com/~gumilev/HE2/he2103.htm История Востока. В 6 т. Т. 2. Восток в средние века.]М., «Восточная литература», 2002. ISBN: 5-02-017711-3 (History of the East. In 6 volumes. Volume 2. Moscow, publishing house of the Russian Academy of sciences «East literature»): The multi-ethnic population of Albania left-bank at this time is increasingly moving to the Persian language. Mainly this applies to cities of Aran and Shirwan, as begin from 9-10 centuries named two main areas in the territory of Azerbaijan. With regard to the rural population, it would seem, mostly retained for a long time, their old languages, related to modern Daghestanian family, especially Lezgin. (russian text: Пестрое в этническом плане население левобережнoй Албании в это время все больше переходит на персидский язык. Главным образом это относится к городам Арана и Ширвана, как стали в IX-Х вв. именоваться два главные области на территории Азербайджана. Что касается сельского населения, то оно, по-видимому, в основном сохраняло еще долгое время свои старые языки, родственные современным дагестанским, прежде всего лезгинскому.)(Al-Mas’udi the Arab Historian States from 9th/10th century:“The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenia and Arran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz...All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language...although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages.”Source: Al Mas’udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8.)(Estakhri of 10th century also states in his : “In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.” Original Arabic:و لسان اذربيجان و ارمينيه و الران الفارسيه و العربيه غير ان اھل دبيل و حواليھا یتکلمون بالارمنيه، و نواحی بردعه لسانھم ارانيه(Estakhari, Abu Eshaq Ebrahim. Masalek va Mamalek. Bonyad Moqufat Dr. Afshar, Tehran, 1371 (1992-1993))). So the actual conservative assumption is by a man's culture. Not only the language he used was Persian but the cultural content of his works are Persian and relies on Persian folklore, Ferdowsi and etc. But again the issue of cultural identity is different than ethnicity. Ethnically, he would be Iranic (at least agreed his mother was a Kurd, he was raised by his Kurdish uncle and virtuall all evidence point to a Iranic fatherline). But just like one does not call Ismail I a Kurdish poet, or call someone like Nasimi or Shahriyar (a Seyyed) an Arab poet, one can have different cultural identity than origin. Cultural identity of the poet is Persian and he does not have anything in Turkic and his stories are based on Persian/Iranic folklore. But ethnic origin of his father whom he was orphaned from is possibly disputed (the reason possibly is that the only source that does not say Iranic here actually changed her mind per the below message), but I have allowed room for differing opinion because ultimately it is the cultural heritage that distinguishes the civilization (in this case Iranian and not Turkic) the poet belongs too. And one can argue endlessly wether someone by the name Mua'yyad (Nezami's great grandfather who lived probably before the Seljuq era), was of what origin. Ninetoyadome (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2015

Smarty3i (talk) 15:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Nizami Ganajavi was not Persian

Nizami Ganjavi was not Persian. Yes his poems were written in Persian but that is not the reason to say that a person who lived in Ganja, died In Gaja, whose museum is in Ganja and whose pen name is Ganjavi,is persian. Saiat Nova ( Accepted as Armenian poet) has written somewhere about 140 poems in Azerbaijani, somewhere about 100 in Georgian and only 50-70 in Armenian, his name is Arabic which means hunter, he is also called ashik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashik) but people acept him as Armenian. But why should people accept Nizami Ganjavi as persion if he never was persian? Many Azerbaijani writers and poets used to write in persian eve by 18-19 centuries. Like in Russia poets like A.S.Pushkin used to write in french. That doesn't make person french or persian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smarty3i (talk • contribs)

Most of the territy of nowadays Azerbaijan was thoroughly Persian/Iranian-speaking prior to the Turkifications of the 11th century. Other than that, Shirvan (where Nizami was born) was and always been a predominantly Persian ethnically, culturally, and historically region, even up to the late 19th century. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Mother Kurdish?

Does a nation need famous people? Why is this rally to make him Kurdish. Few resource say his mother is Kurdish. But he is flagged as Kurdish. He is an artist and artists doesn't need nation. Especially fictions!--Kafkasmurat (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

"This user is of Turkish ancestry."... I don't like to be "that guy", but would you say the same if Nizam was considered Turkish? ~ Anon

Wikipedia stores all information found in respectable sources. Opinons of wikipedians to exclude some information is called censorship, which is not tolerated in wikipedia. - Altenmann >t 05:30, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

You saw this message and decided to revert my other additions. That's cencorship as you define.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 08:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Had you read the references properly you would see that it's Nizami himself who says his mother is Kurdish. It's in the intro of Layli and Majnun:

گر مادر من رئیسه کرد

مادر صفتانه پیش من مرد (My mother, Re'ise the Kurd, like a mother, passed away before me) But he doesn't mention the ethnicity of his father which, as always, means his father is 100+% Turkish. 19:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I hope you are being sarcastic about that part because it's pretty well known that Nizam had a dubious relationship with his father. We only know his mother's ancestery, which is Kurdish. His father is of unkown decent until proven otherwise. ~ Anon

He was of Kurdish descent, but I see this article changes his ancestry to Persian or Azeri or Turkic several times. He himself wrote that his mother is a Kurd. This user is complaining about his ancestry or the importance of his ethnic origins. He was a Kurd. Simple as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2016

Nizami Ganjavi is azerbaijani poet and he was born in Ganja where was part of Atabeyler ( Eldanizlar ) empire and Atabey Shemseddin Eldeniz was turk so Persia is absolutely wrong 

ELCHIN.HASANLI (talk) 17:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 18:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2016

"Nizami Ganjavi (1141-1209): The Greatest Master of Persian Romantic Mesnavi", Great Poets of Classical Persian by R M Chopra, 2014, Sparrow Publication, Kolkata. ISBN 978-81-89140-75-5

117.213.189.167 (talk) 09:03, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done - assuming you wanted it added in the references section - Arjayay (talk) 10:26, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Shirin was a Turkish Azeri princess

In the explanation of "Khosrov and Shirin" Shirin is called to be armenian. However, Shirin is the Azeri Turkish princess of the Barda city. In the poem her aunt Mahin Banu advises her not to marry to the Persian king Khosrov. Mahin Banu claims that their ancestors were enemies: "If they are the Moon, then we are the Moonlight, If they are Kaykhosrov, and we are Afrasiyab." (Kaykhosrov was a Sasani king and the grandfather of Khosrov. And Afrasiyab was the leader of Turks on the north part of Araz river. After long lasting wars they held ceasefire and Afrasiyab was invited for negotiations. In the feast Afrasiyab was poisoned by Kaykhosrov and died. This deceitful attempt by Persians left a long lasting trauma and hatred on Turks.) No doubt that Shirin was an Azeri Turkish beauty (shirin means "sweet" in Azeri language).

Good example of WP:FORUM, especially these parts "However, Shirin is the Azeri Turkish princess of the Barda city. (...) This deceitful attempt by Persians left a long lasting trauma and hatred on Turks.) No doubt that Shirin was an Azeri Turkish beauty (shirin means "sweet" in Azeri language)." --- Next. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2017

Rafa1961 (talk) 12:44, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Sirs,

There is big mistake regarding Nizami Ganjavi. It is written that he is Iranian poet. Nizami Ganjavi is Azerbaijani poet. He was born in Ganja city, Azerbaijan (State of Atabeg of Azerbaijan) in 1141. He spent his all life in Ganja, Azerbaijan. I can provide a number of links that prove it. I add some of them. This page is semi-protected, so I can not edit it. Would you please provide support I can make this great mistake.

https://azertag.az/en/xeber/UNESCO_makes_statement_on_Nizami_Ganjavis_870_years_anniversary-226927 https://www.azernews.az/culture/44289.html http://www.anl.az/down/pdd.pdf

Regards,

Not done: There is no big mistake here. Have you read the cited sources? Plus: "Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting." --Wario-Man (talk) 14:47, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear administrators,

See please, for the Great Seljuq empire and the city Ganja, where Nizami was born. Not in Persia. So, in right-hand side of information on Nizami introduce, please, Great Seljuq empire (as it is in the main text) instead of Persia. Thank you!

H.I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.135.166.87 (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Nizami Ganjavi is an Azerbaijani poet

Hello, ok, he wrote in Persian language, but this isn't make him a Persian poet, because in this period literaturical language of Middle East was Persian language. Language isn't nationality. There have a lot of references that he's an Azerbaijani poet. I respect Persian people and they culture, but Nizami isn't a Persian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.20.176.1 (talk) 15:07, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

>There have a lot of references that he's an Azerbaijani poet

Him being from Azerbaijan doesn't make him an Azerbaijani Turk. And his mother was already known to be Kurdish (even he says so).

On top of historical sources showing population of Ganja in those days being Persian, we also have the words of countless modern historians (non-Iranian ones too) that support the fact that Nizami was Persian ethnicity. Here is one of the (many) examples:

( Дьяконов, Игорь Михайлович. Книга воспоминаний. Издательство "Европейский дом", Санкт-Петербург, 1995., 1995. - ISBN 5-85733-042-4. cтр. 730-731 Igor Diakonov. The book of memoirs: ( Nizami) was not Azeri but Persian (Iranian) poet, and though he lived in presently Azerbaijani city of Ganja, which, like many cities in the region, had Iranian population in Middle Ages. (russian text: (Низами) был не азербайджанский, а персидский (иранский) поэт, хотя жил он в ныне азербайджанском городе Гяндже, которая, как и большинство здешних городов, имела в Средние века иранское население).).(http://www.kulichki.com/~gumilev/HE2/he2103.htm История Востока. В 6 т. Т. 2. Восток в средние века.]М., «Восточная литература», 2002. ISBN: 5-02-017711-3 (History of the East. In 6 volumes. Volume 2. Moscow, publishing house of the Russian Academy of sciences «East literature»):

If he were a Turk he would have written at least one piece of writing in Turkish (the same way Avicenna, despite writing the vast majority of his scholarly works in Arabic, still has some of his casual letters/poems in his native Persian language.

You people say that he was a Turk just because the city today is turkish-majority. However, that's a fallacy, Crimea is today ethnic Russian-majority, does that mean the Crimean Khanate was a Russian state? Turks weren't the majority in Ganja or Iranian Azerbaijan in those days, the same way Crimea wasn't Russian-majority back then either.

There are two more historical sources in the article itself, that the people in Ganja back then were Persian-speaking. Even the name of the city itself derives from the Persian word "ganj" (meaning treasure). Qahramani44 (talk) 08 August 2018

Nizami Ganjavi Name in Azerbaijan

As Nizami was from city of Ganja, Azerbaijan deleting his name in Azerbijani langauge with statement "Nothing to do with him as a person or his works" is more looks like POV[35]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov (talk • contribs) 16:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

That logic. I guess that means we should add Arabic in the lede of every ancient Mesopotamian ruler? They were born in present-day Iraq after all. Stop spamming so many talk pages with your irredentist nonsense. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:36, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I suggest we just ignore this user (in accordance with WP:DENY) since it's clear now that they are a WP:SPA account and thus, not here to build an encyclopedia. However, they should be reported to ANI the very next time they disrupt Wikipedia with their nationalistic rants.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:59, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2020

Nizami Ganjavi is not a Persian poet. He was an Azerbaijanian poet who was born in Ganja, Azerbaijan and lived there all his life. He wrote his poems with pseudonyme Ganjavi in persian language, as this language was an official language for access to palaces. His mausoleum is situated in Ganja so far. https://azerbaijan.travel/en/place/129-the-nizami-ganjavi-mausoleum LamiyaAbasova (talk) 06:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done @LamiyaAbasova: To say that Nizami Ganjavi is Azerbaijanian & not a Persian poet would be an anachronism. Check the History of Azerbaijan to see that it simply did not exist as its own enity at the time & was ruled by Persia. To indicate that Nizami Ganjavi was an Azerbaijanian would be akin to saying that the Salem Witch Trials occured in the United States, that Robert the Bruce was British, or that Melodium was Italian when it sided with Carthage. None of this would be historically accurate. Peaceray (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

@Peaceray: Then, you should not write it as Persian either, as Persian is related to nationality or ethnic group to which Nizami did not belong to. He was born during the time of Eldiguzids or Seljuk Empire as mentioned in the article as well, and these states were Turkic. So if you do not want to write Azerbaijani, you can replace it with the word Turkic. Note also that, today those Turks in Ganja are called Azerbaijani despite the fact that they were Eldiguzids or Seljuks back then. In any case, Persian is too wrong name for Nizami. Aydan B-va (talk)

>>as Persian is related to nationality or ethnic group to which Nizami did not belong to

Except that he did belong to Persian ethnic group, as shown not just by the fact that he exclusively wrote in Persian, but also more importantly by the fact that Ganja was an overwhelmingly ethnic Persian inhabited city during Nizami's time, via the following primary historical source (a man born in 13th century Ganja) found in the article: The Armenian historian Kirakos Gandzaketsi (c. 1200 – 1271) mentions that: "This city was densely populated with Iranians and a small number of Christians"

Saying that anyone born under a Turkic state was Turkic is a fallacy; its like saying that everyone born under Russian Empire or Austrian Empire was Russian or German respectively. The entire article here has countless more sources (from Western and Russian historians) supporting the fact that Nizami was an ethnic Persian and not a Turk. --Qahramani44 (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Jesus and the Dead Dog

Persian depictions of Europeans that are critical of their religious attitudes are all but unknown. Possibly the only exception is an illustration in the edition of Nizami's Makhzan al-asrar which relates to the parable of Jesus and the Dead Dog. I suggest adding this to the Makhzan-ol-Asrâr section. SoulGardener (talk) 12:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Add reference to The Tedeschi Trucks Band?

If Eric Clapton is mentioned, then surely The Tedeschi Trucks Band deserve a bigger mention for their four part 2022 album "I am the moon" based on/around Themes from Layla and Majnun I'm trying to get this mentioned the other way round so it can be cross - referenced 92.1.65.238 (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Nizami Ganjavi is an Iranian poet

The country of Azerbaijan, Nezami Ganjavi, introduces the Iranian poet with an Azerbaijani lie. If according to Nizami Ganjavi's statements in his poems, he is an Iranian.

he says in a simile: "The whole world is like the body and Iran is its heart; I am not ashamed to make this comparison; and it is certain that the heart is better than all the body."[1](The same poems that the government of the Republic of Azerbaijan has deleted for the citizens) 31.7.114.40 (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Iranian? Iran is a new state created in first half of 20th century. How Nizami can love Iran in 12th century? How a citizen of Eldenizli Atabeg State born and lived in Gandja, Azerbaijan be Persian or Iranian? Absolutely pointless. 212.47.136.128 (talk) 21:08, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Suggest to edit (Knowing Nezami Ganjavi as Iranian)

He lived in north of Aras river. To explain the relationship between that region and the concept of "Iran", we can examine these cases:

1.The most important reason to know Ganjavi as an Iranian peot is his love for the concept of Iran. For example, when he prays for "Crep Arslan"(Seljuk king), he says in a simile: "The whole world is like the body and Iran is its heart; I am not ashamed to make this comparison; and it is certain that the heart is better than all the body."(The same poems that the government of the Republic of Azerbaijan has deleted for the citizens🙂)

Manuscript of the poem that I said

2.We know that Nezami Ganjavi lived during the Seljuk period. And we also know that the Seljuk kings were considered the king of "Iran". In this inscription written on the wall of Hassan's tomb in Syria, you can clearly see that the Nuraldin Zangi was considered the king of Iran. In the first line in Arabic, he introduces the ruler and in the third line, in Persian, he is considered the world king of Iran.(Jahānkhosro ie Iran, amirolmarāghin shariare sham

And in this inscription, which has been corrected by Nuraldin Zangi and written earlier, Alp Arslan is known as the King of Iran. File:بازنویسی کتیبه آلپ‌ارسلان.jpg In the tenth line it says "Alp Arsalan, the king of Iran"(Pahlavāne jahān, khosroye Iran, Aleb ghazi, Āgh Ārsalān.)

3.Even Yaqut al-Hamawi, who traveled in the late Seljuk period and wrote the Dictionary of Countries after the Mongol invasion, has repeatedly called it "Iranshahr" in the Sassanid style, and has also considered Azerbaijan and Armenia as part of "Iran".

4.The idea of "Iran" even exists among other poets and other kings of the region. For example, Khaghani praised Sultan Abu Muzaffar Shervani, as the king of Iran. For example, in the first line of the first paragraph, it says: "King of the Iranians (is) Jalaluddin; superior to the Samanids (is) Jalaluddin"(Shāhe iraniān jalāloddin, sare sāmāniān jalāloddin.) Or in praise of Atabak, Mozaffaruddin Ghezel Arsalan" calls him the King of Iran.(Shāhe Iran mozafaroddin ān kaz sare kasrā afsar andazad)

5.The idea of "Iran" was used even before Ganjavi for the people of the region and the rulers of Ganje. For example, Qatran Tabrizi, to admiration "Lashkari" (King of Shaddadids), calls him the Shah of Iran and the successor of the Sasanians.(First, he prays that the Sassanids will rule the region again)

in jahān budast dāem molkate sāsāniān; bāz sālārash khoda dar molkate sāsān konad; nist dar gohare sāsāniān chon lashgari; tā pas ān chon niākan shāhie iran konad.

Therefore, I think it is logical if we consider Nezami Ganjavi as Iranian Histo.beh (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, you sound so desperate. Those famous people you cited refer to "Iran" as name of territory (Persia) and it is a geographical name. Turkic states were founded in so-called Persia and their rulers were praised being rulers of that land. For them it was pride to be ruler and conqueror of it. This reference doesnt mean a State named Persia. It is an exonym. Persia is similar to Siberia - as a romantic geographical and historical term. Gunner555 (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2020

Nizami Ganjavi as can be seen from the name is Azerbaijani poet that was born in Azerbaijan territories. Cannot be stated as Persian poet. It is misleading! 5.197.211.44 (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

You would need to point to some really good reliable sources for that, as we already cite reliable sources for the current statement. – Thjarkur (talk) 16:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Reliable source is this - the fact - a person who ONLY lived in modern Azerbaijan's territory in an Azerbaijani city Ganja (second largest). This is enough to conclude Nizami can be referred to as historical Azerbaijani figure. Simple as it is. Even if his ethnicity were Japanese, Chinese and any other he would still be Azerbaijani.

Queen Elizabeth had German origin. Is she called German? No, she is British. She lived and ruled in UK. Gunner555 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Nizami is not a Persian poet.

It is wikipedia-wide wrong assumption that Nizami is allegedly a Persian poet. Where is the source? Nizami lived in the state of Eldaniz (Atabegs), which was formed in modern Azerbaijan with original capital in Nakhichevan by turkic ruler Shamsaddin Eldeniz. He lived in Gandja city and never left this place in his life. Basically, he was resident and citizen of turkic state of Eldeniz and had nothing to do with Persia. And his father is definitely oghuz turk. So he is Azerbaijani poet. Nizami wrote his poems in persian and arabic because the kings ordered those works from him and chose their languages. Because Nizami wrote in Persian doesn't make him Persian. What an absurd claim by a section author here saying "Nizami loved this and that kings in Iran"...None of those kings were Persian, all were Seljug and Eldenizli State rulers. It is disrespectful. It must be changed to Nizami, Azerbaijani poet 212.47.136.128 (talk) 21:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@/212.47.136.128(/ Gunner555?) Ganjavi is included in many scholarly books on Persian literature which are already used as sources in the article. Additionally, there are multiple sources already cited stating he is Persian (see the article). There is a large amount of published literature discussing his impact on Persian literature, and his works were written in the Persian language. Azerbaijan wasn't formed until centuries after his death, so describing him as Azerbaijani is not accurate. As a matter of policy as well as historical accuracy, we don't retroactively place nationalities on people from nation states that did not exist at the time the person was alive. Azerbaijan was founded in 1918, 709 years after Ganjavi's death. 4meter4 (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

he is Azerbaijani because he lived in modern Azerbaijan territory and in one of the states created on it. The article has many unclear references. Some British historians refer to which sources and claim he is Persian? At least, by citizenship/residency he was of Atabeg/Eldenizli State's. Having impact on Persian literature doesn't make him a Persian. It is not a grounded claim. Ethnicity and location of lifetime are what matters. Anyone in modern days can write in English still be not British. He never called himself Persian, he considered himself a Ganjavi person, the city that was inhabitated by Ganjavi turcomans/oghuzes following conquest of Caucasus and today's Iran by oghuz Seljugs. Gunner555 (talk) 23:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Gunner555 Under our policies, anyone who died before a country existed can not be described as a citizen of that country. It's that simple. Therefore, anyone who died prior to 1918 can not be described as Azerbaijani as Azjerbaijan did not exist until 1918.4meter4 (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Which policies? Did Iran exist before 1918? No, it is a new country with new name. Official name of this country was not Iran nor Persia even before. Persia was an exonym. So, stop spreading the Iranist/Persianist agenda by calling historical people Persian/Iranian who wrote in Persian or lived close to it. Nizami lived in a state that was founded in modern Azerbaijan with capital in Nakhichevan and even ruled today's Iran eventually. Gunner555 (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Actually Iran did exist before 1918, both as a nation and ethnicity, the WP:RS listed here is a testimony to that as well (see also Name of Iran and Iranian peoples). Azeris, however, did not exist as a nation nor ethnicity until 1918. Also, I have reported you for more attacks. 4meter4 is not even Iranian as far as I know (not that it matters, you should focus on the comment, not the user). It seems that everyone who disagrees with you is pushing some Iranian/Persian agenda. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

You take everything personally. We are not attacking anyone here. I am putting arguments against claims given here. There never was a country called Iran before 20th century. That was a romantic name just like Persia. Persia itself was used as an exonym mostly by western world. Please provide grounds and meaningful logic before deleting posts or reporting. How can you disrespectfully say Azeris didn't exist before 1918 as ethnicity. How could Azerbaijanis suddenly begin existing only in 1918? Azerbaijanis are oghus turks that ruled this country from 11th century and eventually ended up establishing today's country with name Azerbaijan, just like the term Iran was chosen as country's name (btw, after 1918). So, even official name Azerbaijan is older than official name of Iran. Gunner555 (talk) 23:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't take anything personal, you're just being disrespectful as usual. It's not illegal to open a book once in your life;

"Under the Mussavatist government, in 1918 and during the establishment of the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan, the term “Azeri people” referred to all inhabitants while the Turkish-speaking portion was called “Azeri Turk”. Thus the concept of an Azeri identity barely appears at all before 1920 and Azerbaijan before this era had been a simple geographical area." - page 16-17 Lornejad, Siavash; Doostzadeh, Ali (2012). Arakelova, Victoria; Asatrian, Garnik (eds.). On the modern politicization of the Persian poet Nezami Ganjavi (PDF). Caucasian Centre for Iranian Studies.

"In 1918 some of these Turkish-speaking Muslims began to identify themselves as Azerbaijanis, a term which was later encouraged by the Kremlin in the nation-building efforts for the various peoples in the Soviet Union." - page 121, Bournoutian, George (2016). "Prelude to War: The Russian Siege and Storming of the Fortress of Ganjeh, 1803–4". Iranian Studies. Taylor & Francis. 50 (1): 107–124.

I could easily find more if I wanted. Not gonna bother digging into my sources regarding Iran either, cba wasting further time with you. Start with Name of Iran and Guarded Domains of Iran, they're all sourced.

Not that there are a lack of these type of sources, but the latest EI3 source (released two months ago) about Nizami Ganjavi also calls him for "Persian" [36].

Let me guess, all biased sources? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

and besides..you go against your own words. "if you dont place nationalities on from nation states that didn't exist at the time the person was alive" - then on what grounds Nizami is called Persian in his page? He didnt live in Persia or anything related to it. He lived under Eldanizli/Atabegs State. Gunner555 (talk) 23:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure the description of "Persian" is being used in this context as a term of nationality, but more as a matter of language (as in English writers referring to the language and not the nation; and encompassing people from the United States, Australia, UK, etc.) But this does raise a good point about how we use the word Persian in this article, and what sort of claim it is making. I agree that it might be better to clarify the descriptor as a "Persian language writer" rather than implying a Persian ethnic or national tie. I would support modifying the text accordingly. Further, it might be best to point out that the writer has been claimed by several nations in published literature. This source claims he is an Afghani poet. This source claims his is an Azerbaijani Poet, and this book interestingly looks at how Ganjavi has become a divisive figure in relation to issues of national identity between Iran and Azerbaijan. This source is particularly illuminating about the politicization of Ganjavi in relation to his Afghani v.s. Persian identity, and the controversy surrounding the USSR's literary scholarship in the 1930s onward. All of this could be more thoroughly worked into the article in a neutral way by pointing out the conflicts between sources, and criticisms and arguments on both sides. To some extent this is already covered in the body of the article and at Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan. I do think there is room for some improvements in the lead in particular. Again, wikipedia shouldn't make a definitive claim of national identity for a nation state that didn't exist at the time subject was alive, but we should present the various differences of opinion in the literature. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

While I do agree that it can become ambiguous at times, WP:RS normally differanties between an ethnic Persian and a Persian speaker, especially nowadays. The first source is far from WP:RS, being written by an obscure figure (who I'm not even sure is a historian) who makes the ludicrous claims in his book that "Afghanistan Literature is World's greatest and richest - without Afghan- Literature no European (German, French, Spanish or English) Literature would exist today" and "For 35,000 years ancient Afghanistan was called Aryana (the Light of God) has existed." The second source is written by a historian in the Soviet Union, a country that played a leading role in the historical negationism of today's Azerbaijan, including the Azerification of Nizami [37]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

You bring references from naturally biased Armenian and Iranian authors about Azerbaijanian's identity?

Please dont deviate from topic. We dont discuss Azeris/Azerbaijan of 1918. It is wellknown fact that fonders of Azerbaijan Democratic Repiblic in 1918 chose country's name Azerbaijan. It was their decision. At least, to create some sort of bonding with brotherly turks of south (modern Iran).

The bare fact is this: 1. Nizami Ganjavi lived in the territory of today's Azerbaijan Republic. Only there. 2. He never considered himself Persian, nor ethnically or geographically. He loved Ganja and called himself Ganjavian. 3. The historical state where Nizami lived was Eldanizli/Atabegs of Aran founded by Shamsaddin Eldeniz. It was independent state established in Nakhchivan after collapse of Seljug Empire. And thid State ruled today's Iran too. It was 100% turkic state of tukic ruler and dominant population of oghuz turks.

Considering all these we come to conclusion that Nizami cannot be presented as Persian neither by geography, official residency and even ethnicity.

And his references to anything Persia/Iran was purely literatural and mostly events of pre-Seljug era. These things cannot be taken as his personal origin. He merely, praised heroism of characters he wrote about, example Bahram, Farhad. Gunner555 (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

"naturally biased Armenian and Iranian authors" Thanks, that's exactly what I needed. More proof of your anti-Iranian and anti-Armenian behaviour for my report. And to no surprise, you have 0 WP:RS of your own. I didn't deviate, I simply adressed your argument. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:32, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Would you stop deviating from topic and deliberatly focusing attention on minor things? I said it is natural that Armenian authors would be biased about Azerbaijan due to conflict. We dont discuss this topic. Do you have something to say about my facts and arguments about Nizami? Or will yoi continue taking it personal? Gunner555 (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Noone is anti-Iranian here. I bring arguments against unfair and ungrounded content about the topic related to Nizami. It is open platform of free-speech. Therefore, opinions of multiple minds DO matter. Gunner555 (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@ Gunner555 we have a policy of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV. The sources here may express opinions that have a point of view that you disagree with, but that doesn't mean they are views that can or should be censored from the article. It does mean that we should work towards achieving a neutral balance when presenting that content. You have a passionate point of view on this topic, and it may be difficult for you to edit in this area and maintain neutrality. @HistoryofIran I do think some of the concerns raised by Gunner555 are valid. We could do a better job achieving balance in the article by pointing out criticisms of politicization in the literature made towards both USSR/Azjerbiajani scholars and Iranian/Armenian writers, and being more careful with how we are using the descriptor Persian in the lead. It might be best to describe him as a "12th-century Sunni Muslim poet from the city of Ganja during the time of the Seljuk Empire who was known for his contribution to Persian-language literature." This would remove the controversy over national politics/identity entirely from the opening statement. We could then precede to say something about literature prior to the 1930s describing him as a Persian writer. That in the 1930s nationalist movements in the literary writing in the USSR led to his description as an Azerbaijan poet by Russian language authors. These publications were criticized as revisionist history etc. This has led to a continuing division in the literature on Ganjavi, etc. And let the reader decide what to believe by presenting both sides as neutrally as possible. It's not our role to take sides in a literary/ political debate.4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no controversy nor continuing divide though, that's the thing. The vast majority of WP:RS considers Nizami to be Persian/Iranian, as already demonstrated in the article. WP:RS likewise dismisses Azerbaijan's revisionist narrative. Ultimately we should follow what WP:RS says, not change the article to satisfy the government of Azerbaijan or WP:POV editors. Speaking of the latter, I've reported Gunner555 to ANI [38]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

That is just simply not true HistoryofIran. See Edmund Herzig (April 25, 2017). "How Nizami Ganjavi became an Azerbaijani National Poet: Knowledge, Power and Persian Poetry in the 1930s Soviet Union". UCLA Asian Pacific Center. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) which articulates an on-going conflict.4meter4 (talk) 01:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, that Azerbaijan is trying to make Nizami Ganjavi an Azerbaijani does not matter, what reliable sources say does. There is no debate or conflict among scholars when it comes to Nizami's ethnicity. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@4meter4 Sorry, but I’m not sure how this contradicts what I have been saying. Nizami first became Azeri in the Soviet Union and later Azerbaijan, but remained Persian/Iranian in actual WP:RS. We shouldn't cater to revionistic propaganda by authoritarian regimes. This is on par with saying that the Aztecs were Mexicans. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I entirely agree that it is absolute nonsense. But it is a notable WP:FRINGE topic with ongoing scholarly debate as indicated by Herzig who specifically states Iranian scholars are engaging with Azerbaijani scholars in ongoing debate. We should report on Ganjavi's status as a national poet in Azerbaijan in the Azerbaijan section itself and the controversy surrounding that status. The Azerbaijan section of the article completely skips over any controversy (although it is sort of hinted at in the USSR section), and to my mind that is a gap in our coverage. There's clearly coverage in reliable scholarship connecting the USSR's 1930s campaign to the current state of Ganjavi's status as a national poet and the ongoing debate between Iranian and Azerbaijan scholars with a politicized context. This isn't a dead debate but an on-going issue.4meter4 (talk) 16:46, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I have no problem mentioning the issue, though we do seem to have a whole article dedicated to that, Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan. I still don't think that warrants changing the lede though. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

The vast majority of reliable sources describe him as Iranian or Persian, regardless of the opinion of the Azerbaijani authorities, thus, the lead should remain as it is currently.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

There is not even need to refer to his religious backround. In addition to your suggestion let me kindly bring a clear examole. Check page of Guiseppe Garibaldi. He is referred to as Italian. Country as Italy didnt exist back then yet. But because he functioned in modern Italy he is referred as Italian. The same way Nizami could be easily referred as Azerbaijani poet. Gunner555 (talk) 00:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

By the way, Seljug Empire didnt exist in Nizsmi's time. It was replaced by Eldenizli State, also knowm as Atabegs of Aran (today's Azerbaijan). It was fully independent state. Gunner555 (talk) 01:00, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

That so? Giuseppe Garibaldi: "Giuseppe Maria Garibaldi (/ˌɡærɪˈbɔːldi/ GARR-ib-AWL-dee, Italian: [dʒuˈzɛppe ɡariˈbaldi] (listen);[note 1] 4 July 1807 – 2 June 1882) was an Italian general, patriot, revolutionary and republican. He contributed to Italian unification and the creation of the Kingdom of Italy." --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Gunner555, I am not well versed in Iranian or Azerbaijan history and wouldn't consider myself an expert in this content area. I am also completely unfamiliar with the politics of topics on Iran or Azerbaijan. I only came here because of the conflict at Talk:Turandot, and was surprised to see your talk page posts removed from there and on this page. It just didn't seem right to shut down the conversation without giving it some consideration. It's clear this is an area that needs a nuanced touch to achieve balance, and probably needs attention from someone with more specialized knowledge than I possess.4meter4 (talk) 01:15, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

For the record, Gunner has been indefinitely blocked as WP:NOTHERE due to personal attacks and disruptive editing. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)