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Before the recent edit, it seemed to me that the majority of this entry, or maybe all of it, came from the www.jodojo.com website. Specifically [1]. This website, is Nishioka's Ryu's official website, and all information about him (credentials, experiences etc etc) and his ryu is as official as it gets. Fred26 18:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which then becomes a copyright problem. Besides Wikistyle frowns upon the date list format. I think the mass delete gives some room for expansion.Peter Rehse 00:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Copy & paste is no way to write an article. Hopefully someone can put the material together into a real wiki-article. Fred26 04:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many senior Jodo teachers seriously question Nishioka's version of his qualifications and training history. Particularly his claim to length of training. There is evidence he actually quit Jodo for more than 25 years (check his grade progression) whilst working in his family business. Shimizu Sensei withheld giving him a full signed and stamped SMR Menkyo (specifically not teaching him Hojo Jutsu) therefore Nishioka is compelled to propagate his 'own' style of SMR. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.55.157.111 (talk) 2006-11-22T14:20:24

This is the first time I've heard the claim Nishioka Tsuneo does not have a full or legitimate Menkyo. If you can find a good source for it then by all means post the above additions to the article. Oh, by the way who are "many senior jodo teachers"? I'm personally curious since Nishioka has given out something like 10 Menkyo Kaidens, all of which would not be valid if the above claim is true. Fred26 17:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Among long time Jodo practitioners this is a highly political issue. I know you haven't been doing Jodo that long so I will simply keep to answering your questions. Matsui, Kaminoda and Hiroii are the 'many Jodo teachers' Further research would help you get a clearer prospective but do not expect to reach a final answer. Like many things in Japan and in particular Koryu it will simply have to be left 'Yabu no naka'[2] —unsigned comment was added by 24.55.157.111 (talk) 2006-11-22T21:26:14

I took your advice and made some research myself in the form of an inquiry. I got my reply yesterday. After gotten the reply I see nothing to make me believe that Nisihoka Sensei's final certificate is not valid. Apparently, there is no formal requirement to learn ALL the auxilliary arts except "Kasumi Shinto-ryu Kenjutsu" for Menkyo. That Nishioka Sensei's training-"sheet" has gaps in them obviously didn't affect Shimizu and Otofuji Sensei decision grant him Menkyo when it was finally issued. He does not seem to have quit for 25 years but seemed rather to have trained less frequently. In 1966 he was active as an assistant to Shimizu Sensei and got his Gomokuroku the same year. So either he did actually train during that period between 1943 to 1966 (the years he received Shomokuroku and Gomokuroku respectively) and progressed perhaps a bit more slowly than usual due to this family business and lack of time for full-time training, or he took a 23 year break and did "quit" as you said, and then all of a sudden he returned to training and got a Gomokuroku after all those years being totally non-active in training as you suggest. I believe the former scenario. He must have been extremely skilled back if the latter scenario ocurred. Nishioka Sensei's Menkyo Kaiden is legitemate eventhough he does not teach Hojojutsu very often and doesn't have a complete transmission of the Hojojutsu. Best regards. Fred26 09:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Of course all of the above depends entirely on who your 'reply' was from. You asked me who the 'senior Jodo teachers' are and I answered. In the same way I ask you who your source was. One guy (probably IJF) telling another something he heard from another does not constitute factual data. Further your prospective is clouded by western thinking that ranks and grades are solely depended on skill and training endeavor. Not so in Japan. I urge you to widen your research and think more objectively. Nevertheless I am happy this conversation is contributing to a better understanding of SMR.

My apologies for forgetting to mention my source. My source for the above is my Sensei: Michael Söderqvist, Oku-iri Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo, the Swedish representative in the European Jodo Federation. His other credentials is a 5th Dan Shihan in Kyokushinkai Karate of which he is the official "Swedish country representative" for Kyokushinkai. He started his SMR-training roughly 25 years ago. (If in doubt: [[3]]). Above him of course is Pascal Krieger, Swiss Menkyo Kaiden Shinto Muso-ryu, student of Shimizu Sensei, Kaminoda Sensei [4] and reciever of Menkyo Kaiden from Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei. Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei has been a technical advisor to the Europan Jodo Federation for roughly 12 years now. My Sensei has met and trained with him on numerous occasions. The latest being at the 2006 Brazil Gasshuku.
Another thing, while we are speaking of the lack of Hojojutsu in Nishioka Sensei teachings, how many Menkyo Kaiden in the world do you know to have a complete Hojojutsu certificate? Actually, what sort of certificate does Kaminoda Sensei have in Hojojutsu?
Also, to clear up something about Kaminoda Sensei and this "Menkyo not valid" business. Apparently, since Kaminoda Sensei were not actually present at the giving of Nishioka Senseis MK, and together with the already mounting friction between the two men, he did not believe the latter had been issued with a proper one. As I have been told, it took some time before Kaminoda Sensei actually saw the license, but when he did he finally did accept that Nishioka Sensei had been given a full certificate. That Menkyo Kaiden, as explained, was stamped and sealed by Shimizu Sensei of the Tokyo Dojo, and Otofuji Sensei from Kyushu. And again: It is no secret that Nishioka Sensei and Kaminoda Sensei has some disagreements and tensions between them. (and between other people too). It is only natural that the enemity is handed down in the coming generations and even expanded.
Best regards Fred26 21:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Edit*
Oh by the way, I didn't catch your name. You are obviously an experienced Student of Shinto Muso-ryu. It would be interesting to get to know more SMR-practitioners from many SMR-traditions. :) Fred26 21:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My name is Helen Marie Givens.

Nice to meet you Miss Givens. My name is Fredrik Hall and I work at Jämtland Läns Museum [5], Östersund Sweden. Unfortunetly I will have to decline a private conversation on the grounds that since we are discussing a public article on Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei then discussions about proposed changes and accusations (pardon my spelling/grammar, english isn't my first language), and on what ground, is best keept in the open.
Best regards Fred26 11:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then we will conclude our discussion here. I was eager to provide you with much more objective material and documentation into the history and customs of Shinto Muso Ryu but this is not the correct academically controlled environment so this material will remain with me. I wish you well with your Jodo training and your work here on Wikipedia. Please try to be more objective than simply repeating ‘what my teacher told’ me.

Thank you for your many advice regarding objectivity and your concerns regarding Nishioka Senseis legitimacy. I will have a need of good advice as I progress in Jodo. :-). I know it will be a struggle to clear a path through the many groups, web-sites and individuals who all proclaim to have the "...unvarnished truth about Jodo" and to be the "preservors of the REAL teachings of Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo".
All the best Miss Givens. Fred26 19:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By way of conclusion I have checked with three SMR Menkyo Kaiden holders (Hiroii, Kaminoda and Matsui) regarding your statement 'there is no formal requirement to learn ALL the auxilliary arts except "Kasumi Shinto-ryu Kenjutsu" for Menkyo'

Each of them has said that your information is most certainly wrong. In order to receive a certificate of 'full transmission' from either Shimizu Takaji or Kuroda Ichitaro they were most definitely required to learn all the arts incorporated within SMR. They then received a Menkyo for each art. Regarding Hojo Jutsu, all Menkyo holders from the Kuroda Ichitaro line have full knowledge of the complete syllabus. This makes sense when you hear the word 'full' transmission. If it wasn't full then surely the arts will fall into disuse and disappear.

Right Miss Givens I'll check the info at my end. One thing though, mentioned only Kurodas students but obviously there are more Menkyo Kaidens regarding Hojojutsu. So what did they say about the MK-holders from Shimizu and Otofuji Sensei? Have all their students been issued with full knowledge in Hojojutsu?
I'll let you know when I get a reply. Best regards Fred26 20:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, just a minor clarification here so I know your position: You and Kaminoda, Hiroii and Matsui Sensei are of the opinion that Nishioka Tsuneo's Menkyo Kaiden is null and void due to him not being fully knowledgeable in Hojojutsu as it is part of the Shinto Muso-ryu system? That is your statement correct? And as a bi-product it also means that the Menkyo Kaiden of Pascal Krieger and Phil Relnick (plus the other 8 Menkyo Kaiden that Nishioka Sensei has issued) are also therefore null and void since it takes a fully learned Menkyo Kaiden to issue another Menkyo Kaiden correct?. Otherwise, as you said, it wouldnt be a full transmission since Nishioka could not have possibly been in a legal position to judge Phil Relnick and Pascal Krieger senseis knowledge in Hojojutsu. If that was the case then Shimizu and Otofuji Sensei seems to have made an unfortunete error when they both issued Nishioka Sensei his MK in 1975. Am I right to understand that this is your and Kaminoda, Hiroii and Matsui Senseis statement? Best regards. Fred26 21:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I said 'By way of conclusion' This is my final post - I offered more detail by email but you refused. I have no opinion about the qualifications of any person within the Nishioka line. I am sure they do excellent and fully qualified Jodo. I merely suggest that you do more wider research outside of your current Nishioka line only sources.

Yes Miss Givens. I've noticed your own research is also quite unlike what is done in the Nishioka Line. Give my regards to Mr. Bellamy. Fred26 07:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I passed along your regards. I hope we can all train together sometime.

Shouldn't be impossible Miss Givens. Give us the word if you are in Europe for any of the Kagamibiraki or Gasshuku. If you do then I'm sure Pascal Krieger Sensei will help you with the misconceptions you have about what constitutes a Menkyo Kaiden and what the requirements are far better than I can.
Good day Miss Givens. Fred26 06:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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