Talk:Nicholas Barbon

Hath not If

BBC says his first name was Hath, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/working_lunch/2803647.stm

Barebones

Adam Hart-Davis' What the Stuarts did for us says his original surname, and that of his father, was Barebones, and that Barbon was a name he adopted (presumably when dumping that doozie of a Christianname). -- 86.131.218.144 16:44, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Added text from Nicolas Barbon, merged that page with this one. -- User:Terraxos, 21 April 2006

Nicholes's Full Name

The question is whether Dr. Barbon's middle name was in fact If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned as several editors claim and others dispute. Additional research needed Nmacri (talk) 17:32, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Two texts naming him, one of which I have used in a newly added citation, term him Nicholas Unless-Jesus-Christ-Had-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barbon. I have changed the name to this, consequently. --Yst 11:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmacri (talk • contribs) Come on, that can't be his real full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.243.238 (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC) It absolutely was. Why do you think he changed it? AllenHansen (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not... see the citation used to justify keeping it here. It clearly states that the name belongs to "the elder Barbon", AKA his dad, but that his dad went by Praisegod instead. 208.46.220.34 (talk) 17:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent research (in a book published in 2008) has indicated that it (i.e. If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned) was in fact his real middle name. Info and refs added accordingly! Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 20:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Rather than reverting I am throwing this one out on RFC. I find it difficult to believe that that was his middle name, and the source cited in the article does not appear credible. User talk:Hassocks5489 mentions a second source but does not cite. Nmacri (talk) 17:32, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The source seems credible enough to me, and that style of name was very common in that period, especially given the similar names in his family. That style of naming was a fad for about 50 years, and actually continues to this day in certain religious communities! Just my $.02... --rahaeli (talk) 09:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Middle names were very uncommon in England before the 18th century, and it's doubtful either Nicholas or his father Praise-God had a middle name. It's more likely that either Dr Barbon was baptised Nicholas and was never given the 'If-Christ' name, or that he found it politic to change his name to Nicholas later. Ash (2008) is a book of humorous names, not a serious historical study, and therefore isn't a reliable source on its own merits. It doesn't directly cite a source, but Bardsley's Curiosities of the Puritan Nomenclature (1880) appears in the bibliography. Bardsley in turn cites Hume (Vol. 6. The history of Great Britain, containing the Commonwealth, and the reigns of Charles II and James II (1757)). Both sources claim the 'If-Christ' name belonged to one of Praise-God's brothers, but say nothing of any sons. Letwin (2003) is not the original source for the information that Unless-Jesus-Christ-Had-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned was Praise-God's original name. The original source appears to be quoting gossip and may have confused Praise-God with one of his brothers. Jules Lolonois (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Baptist?

The current sentence "He became a religious separatist with proto-Baptist and Millenarianist beliefs, with fervent views in favour of infant baptism in particular." appears to be contradictory. Baptists (and hence proto-Baptists) are opposed to infant baptism. Did Barbon favour infant baptism or believer's baptism? Greenshed (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

It's an odd combination; he was fervently in favour of infant baptism—certainly early in his adult life—although there were claims (never proven) that he had been rebaptised. Towards the end of his life, he had developed Millenarianist convictions. I will remove "proto-Baptist". Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 22:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

"These views were contrary to standard moral values of the time"

This is vaguely alluded to (and not explained) in the article. Many people in Barbon's day had the following basic views: 1) Non-utilitarian "luxuries" are economically somewhat superfluous and morally rather dubious. 2) If there is a continual outflow of precious metals (gold, silver) from a country for the purpose of buying foreign luxury goods, then an eventual national financial collapse is inevitable. Even a century after Barbon, the Indo-Chinese opium trade was largely set up to avoid the bullion-drain-for-foreign-luxuries bugaboo. Judged by those standards, Barbon sounds fairly advanced... AnonMoos (talk) 02:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)