Talk:Newburgh, New York/Archives/2012

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From what I can gather from NY Times reports the demolition of the Water St. area occurred sometime between 1961-1965, not in the early 1970's as reported in this article. Can the person who added these dates please provide a citation? -JCS

When I covered Newburgh regularly as a reporter (late 1990s) everyone in city government always talked about that as having taken place around 1970 (or that may have been when it culminated after several years). I think the stuff from the Record that has since been removed as dead linkage supported that. What NYT articles are you referring to? Daniel Case (talk) 19:36, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm so glad someone beefed this page up and added some of Newburgh's history. We need some mention of the riots though -- I did some research and interviews several years ago, and a friend of mine did a thesis at SUNY Plattsburgh about them. I found significant violent outbursts in 1967, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, and 1978, with a mass school boycott following the riot in '78. This was a huge part of the city's reputation when I was growing up there in the '80s, and it deserves some mention. All my teachers at NFA used to talk about them. Maybe I'll add something when I'm coherent enough to research it and write about it well. It would go well after the Mitchell section.

An excellent idea. I would love to have put in references for the history, and maybe I will if I get down to the library's history room for a while sometime soon. Wonder if I'd wind up using any of my own bylined articles (see below)?

I'm not sure about all the riots, though ... 1978 would probably be better dealt with in a history of the school district (in the wake of that, and the district's financial problems that year, it put together the magnet-school grant application, which completely transformed it). But see what you can come up with. Daniel Case 22:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the politics section is kind of misleading. While Newburgh might have a surprising number of Republicans given its demographics, it's still a heavily Democratic town -- I would bet that 90% of the residents who are registered with a party are Democrats. Republicans have a stronger local party machine, probably because they dominate the business community (even some African-American business owners, e.g., Tyrone and Mary Crabb). But if you look at how Newburghers vote in national elections, I bet it's overwhelmingly for Democrats. The bona fide Republicans I encountered in Newburgh were a tiny, bitter minority -- I lived on Bayview Terrace for a while, where right-wing ex-cop buffoon Tom Kirwan lives, and there were a few people there who liked him, but they were all afraid to walk around the corner. Most of the John Birch types moved to the town and NW decades ago. -- dylan stillwood 24.215.174.106 00:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, writing as someone who's covered Newburgh and its politics in some way or another as a reporter for two local newspapers in the eight years I've lived in this region, I stand by that. You put your finger on it with the stronger local GOP machine. Consider that Democrats have a natural base with the city's black and Hispanic combined majority ... but getting them to vote is another matter, whether or not Harry Porr calls in the deputy sheriffs to check valid registrations or not (CTTOI, that should be in there as well ... it would give me a chance to use Mr. Porr's name in the article. I knew him, Horatio, I knew him so well). Daniel Case 22:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Newburgh votes for Democrats nationally and statewide. But, although Tom Kirwan may be a "right-wing ex-cop buffoon", he's still the city's assemblyman. And Poughkeepsie's and Beacon's for that matter (and both of those cities have strong local Republican parties who control the mayorship as well, yet decreasingly white populations). The Democrats just haven't been able to take advantage and put someone up who could defeat him (six terms so far) and then fund that candidate adequately.

Of course, the exception that proves the rule is that Newburgh's Republicans would probably not get far in the current national party ... ideologically most of them are indistinguishable from Democrats, save a lot of rhetoric about pro-business taxation policies. Daniel Case

"Highest ratio of houses of worship to residents of any city in the country." -- ooh, do we have a source for this? i was always blown away by the number of churches in newburgh -- it even seems higher than harlem, where i currently live -- but i never knew any hard numbers. do we have proof? /dylan 24.215.174.106 00:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It does seem like Newburgh has a lot of storefront churches, and more are always opening up, particularly in poorer neighborhoods. Daniel Case 22:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Politically motivated vandalism

I am getting rather fed up with the anon or anons using this page to carry on their vendettas. Vandalism is one thing when it comes from school kids; you hate it but you aren't surprised by it. Coming from adults who should know better is another thing. There are plenty of other forums online for this sort of thing.

I have decided to add this page to my watchlist and take all measures necessary to make sure it conforms with Wikipedia policy. Daniel Case 19:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

=Suggestions from Sammy Johnson

"In the early 1960s, city manager Joseph Mitchell and the council attracted nationwide attention and the admiration of political conservatives when they attempted to require that welfare recipients work and attend job training in return for their benefits. While these initiatives failed as they were widely criticized and beyond the city's authority to change, they were the forerunner to the welfare reform measures adopted by Congress in 1996."

--> Not sure what the source material is for this part of the entry, but this description of Mitchell's plan is not descriptive enough and makes it sound almost reasonable and innocuous. May I suggest an inclusion of some of the actual demands he placed on those who collected public assistance, i.e., they must report to a police station, be photographed as if they were criminals, be labeled immoral, and have their names published in the newspaper (See Joseph P. Ritz's "The Despised Poor: Newburgh's War on Welfare," Beacon Press, 1966.)

Additional stipulations included "5. All mothers of illegitimate children are to be advised that should they have any more children out of wedlock they shall be cut off from relief... 11. All persons on public assistance, irrespective of category, who have immediate blood relatives living in the city or its environs who are productively employed, shall be cut off from relief and the burden of this recipient shall be transferred to the blood relative... 18. In case of families on relief, due to separation or divorce where the male member of the family is residing in the city, the relief shall be denied to the family on the basis that the male member of the family is morally responsible for the continuation of the support of the family." (Ritz, p.50-53)

Mitchell was suspended and later resigned as City Manager after he was arrested and charged with accepting and intent to accept bribes regarding property development; he was found not guilty.

OK, my source for that was just what I had come to know as backstory when I covered Newburgh. It was referenced in news stories that way. I have no knowledge of the specifics; if I can find the book in question I'll add some of this.

Ritz is a legend in Newburgh for his journalism of the Welfare Scandals. He covered it locally, and as the story grew he also covered it further afield (NYC) and those articles formed the basis for "The Despised Poor." His legacy is alive and well; I have seen his book in the lap of a citizen at a recent City Council meeting. I will add some of this when I have a moment. Although it may not be current practice, journalists required primary sources for their material.--Sammy Johnson 05:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Newburgh maintains a strong local Republican Party, despite demographics and urban trends favoring Democrats. Valentine, several other recent and current mayors and councilmembers and Assemblyman Thomas Kirwan, a resident, are Republicans. This has been the case since 1900, when the Republicans engineered a takeover of a till-then Democratic city, following years in which some prominent local Democrats gradually changed parties as a result of the American Civil War. Whether a more diverse city will effect a similar reversal in the new century remains to be seen."

--> May I suggest that the first sentence be changed, and also the reference "since 1900." While Kirwan is indeed the assemblyman for the city of Newburgh, he is also the assemblyman for the town of Newburgh, the city of Poughkeepsie and parts of Ulster county; Valentine may be Mayor, but all four of the council members are Democrats. Also, grammatically the current entry is confusing: Valentine IS the current mayor, so the phrasing of the second sentence is misleading. Also I would like to inquire into the source material for the "since 1900" reference, otherwise, please remove. As to the final sentence, this should be removed as well, as it implies that Newburgh is becoming more diverse (it was always diverse, including a history as a stop on the Underground Railroad) and it is also speculative about a future "reversal" of a situation that I would argue is not factually credible.

"Since 1900" is the way it was put in one of the histories of the city that I regularly used as a reference; can't remember which one now.

Then until you do, it should be removed.--Sammy Johnson 05:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Done (although, I think, simply putting in {{citation needed would have worked). Daniel Case 06:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I still think the situation is credibly described. Yes, Newburgh has a Democratic majority on its council, but I still get the feeling it's a Republican city due more to disunity among the Democrats than anything else.

Consider, re Kirwan (whose district also includes Beacon for that matter), that if the city of Newburgh voted overwhelmingly, not just moderately, for any Democratic opponent of his, he'd lose. I have seen him in action, and Newburgh is where he gets his job back every election and he knows it.

This is probably going to change, but as a previous editor (in one of the edits I took out) noted, it's more due to internal divisions in the city's Democratic Party than anything else (And that's going to change later rather than sooner, I think, for reasons I think I am better off not attaching to my name here). Daniel Case 00:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not find your arguments to have merit. If someone makes claims that they are concerned about "political vandalism," I would raise my expectations for such a person to possess a higher degree of responsibility and substantive support for their arguments than merely "[getting] the feeling" about something. Particularly on the eve of upcoming elections (not significant elections in the City of Newburgh, but, however, a contentious time nonetheless) I find it curious that you continue to defend descpritions that have not been documented, adequately argued, and that could EASILY be made UNCONTENTIOUS by simply removing the disputed elements. Do people need to know what you personally feel characterizes the City? Why not just deliver the facts, and let people feel however they so desire?

Well, OTOH, you could actually edit the article yourself instead of just posting comments on the talk page. Daniel Case 06:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism in question (see here [1], [2], [3], and here [4], relates to specific current events and included personal attacks on identifiable people in city government. I put the warning in the comments because it really dismays me, having had to immerse myself in Newburgh's politics for a couple of years as a professional obligation, to see it spilling over here.
I have traced it as coming from New York City, which along with a couple of other things has me suspecting a particular person. But I won't say anything here. Daniel Case 06:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that there is a Democratic majority. Perhaps the Democrats despise one another; perhaps they have amiable tea parties; perhaps they enjoy crunk; nevertheless, they are the majority.

In Newburgh, I have learned, party affiliation really means very little. You can have five Democrats or five Republicans, and they will find reasons to have bitter disagreements. Or change parties. (I remember when Sal Cracchiolo first ran, it was as an independent. Now he's a Democrat).

As you stated yourself, the republican mayor may not even be recognized as republican in a national context.

As for Kirwan, I have already explained why this is a moot point. Kirwan does not only represent the City of Newburgh, but a huge area of mutlipe counties. Not just the cities, the towns as well, which shift the political spectrum of his constitutency even further right. "Newburgh is where he gets his job back"? My dear sir, do you know the numbers on voter turnout for the City of Newburgh? Even if every single one of those people voted for Kirwan, it does not make Newburgh a city with a "strong Republican party."

I meant in the organizational sense, not the numerical sense. Anyone in politics knows getting out the vote is as important as getting the vote. And I have always seen that the Newburgh city GOP has a generally more stable organization and gets their job done (although that seems to have slipped since Harry Porr got run out of town). They don't always win elections but they have their horses out there. Daniel Case 06:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Kirwan does enjoy the support of many in Newburgh, and by Democrats throughout the state, but this has nothing to do with his party membership, but is rather despite that. Even Spitzer's running-mate David Paterson complimented Kirwan for being a government reformer, someone "whose politics I don't agree with most of the time, but whose integrity I will bear witness to anytime"(Times Herald-Record, May 10, 2006 [5].)

Furthermore, whatever the state of the Democrats, you have failed to make a case for the presence of a strong Republican party in the City of Newburgh.

--Sammy Johnson 05:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. If you're going to make accusations of "vandalism" then I also propose you point out to me my personal feelings in my rewrite. These are all verifiable facts and you would know that if you lived here. Politics in the City of Newburgh has been in constant flux since I arrived here in 1989. Your eight years here was just a snapshot. If you look at the voting record you will see that Mr. Kirwan would lose by a large margin if he ran solely in the City of Newburgh. Again look at the facts. Whatever you think of Mr. Kirwan, he does not represent a "strong" Republican party. He's not even involved in the local city committee. Go to a meeting, and you'll see the opposite of unity. Even Mr. Valentine is an outcast now that he's gone against everyone who supported him. In my opinion, your statements are biased and unbalanced and have nothing to do with the politics of our city. Right now the City Manager controls the politics. Again, don't take my word for it, just go to a city council meeting and you will see it with your own eyes. As for involvement or knowledge of politics here, very few people in(and outside) this city could come close to my experience and knowledge. If you know the City of Newburgh, then you know who I am.

Downingfan 02:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you, Downingfan, completely do not get what these warnings you are getting are about. We cannot express opinions in Wikipedia articles. Click on that link. Do you understand? What you have been putting in is commentary, not facts. If you keep trying to revert this, I will have you blocked from editing, possibly indefinitely since your edit history reflects only a desire to vandalize. Statements like the ones you continue to insist on making are inconsistent with the purpose of an encyclopedia. You wouldn't read them in the Britannica and you're not going to read them here. Some of them may be verifiable, but they cannot be stated in the manner you have been stating them.

As for "Go to any committee meeting and see ..." that's called original research and we don't put it in articles. We want reliable, verifiable sources for anything you say. I admit very little in this article is referenced ... if someone wants to go sit in the history room and come up with a list of references that back up what's in the history section from Ruttenber or Nutt or whoever, be my guest. I'd be happy to put them in in the proper format. But I just don't have the time at the moment. I'm trying to write a fairly neutral history of the city and keep cruft out of this article

"If you know the City of Newburgh, then you know who I am". I would suggest that's a rather bold statement to make when you know exactly who I am. Who's the one using his real name here? Believe me, if I had a dime for everybody I've met who insists that they know Newburgh better than anyone else, I'd be rich.

This whole thing is reminding me why, while it was a rewarding experience, I am so relieved I no longer cover the city of Newburgh's politics on a regular basis. On this page, I'm not here for Newburgh or anybody I work or have worked for, I'm here for Wikipedia.

Yes, Kirwan probably would lose if he ran in just the city of Newburgh. But he's still there, isn't he? Daniel Case 03:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

--> Suggested addition: Addition to "Literature" Joseph Ritz's book, "The Despised Poor: Newburgh's War on Welfare" (see reference above)

--> Suggested addition: Addition to "Literature" Patricia Favata's book, "Newburgh: The Heart of the City" Arcadia, 2004

--Sammy Johnson 23:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the fact that someone took the initiative to write an article about Newburgh, NY. My mother's family is from Newburgh (we date back to the early 1800's in Newburgh) and she and my father are still living there. I lived in Newburgh from 1964-1975 when I left to attend college but I return several times each year. I'm relating all of this because I found some inaccuracies in the article that should be addressed. The mass Urban Renewal project that resulted in the total decimation of most of Water St, Colden St., Smith St., lower Broadway, Ann St., and Montgomery St. south of South St. took place between 1960-1964. When my family joined my father in Turkey in September 1961, my grandparents were living on Smith St. in one of two houses that my great-grandmother left to my grandmother and her brother, my great uncle. When we returned in April 1964, my grandparents were living several streets west of the river on Johnson St. The streets that were destroyed were the black neighborhoods, and had been the black neighborhoods since at least the 1920's. I know this because my mother and her cousins grew up on Smith St., and there were many other "old Newburgh" black families that grew up on Smith St as well.

The impetus for development on that bare site took place ten years later when Rev. Frank Jones, then pastor of A.M.E. Zion Church, developed a number of assisted housing units there, These units were called Varrick Homes. Varrick Homes opened in 1973 or 1974. The apartments are still standing.

Now as to the riots and the circumstances surrounding them: people who were alive then, living in northern cities, and old enough to remember the 1960's will remember for a while every summer there was rioting. The summers of 1964-1968 brought riots in major nothern cities (and in Los Angeles) for a variety of reasons. The Newburgh riots of 1971 and 1974 started at the high school, Newburgh Free Academy, or NFA. Someone else will have to detail the 1971 riots. I have clear memories of the occurances surrounding those in 1974.

Some racial tension erupted during the fall after an African-American band, Yabu, won a Battle of the Bands contest at NFA. A young black girl had been beaten by a group of white boys the previous week. During the aftermath of the band event, her brother retaliated and that ignited the spark that was to become a mass fight which began at the high school the following week. When the police arrived, tear gassed the crowd, and began beating the black students (most who were only curious bystanders), the battle line retreated to the East End (re: the black neighborhoods) and changed character. The confrontation became a full scale riot, resulting in the city being put on curfew. A group of black student activists organized a one day walkout and boycott of the school, and presented a list of demands to the principal. Roseann Scamardella of Channel 2 Eyewitness News even came to interview the students. I do not recall any major changes that occured in the school as a result of these actions, but that was my senior year and I left the city in June, 1975.

I'm certain other Newburgh natives will have more to contribute to the site. Keep up the good work.

Pamwoodard 15:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi friends, I grew up in Newburgh and am a part time architectural historical of sorts. I have always been interested in the city's history even when I was a kid. I have made my first wiki edit to this page, I put some more details into the decline of the city and how it relates to the nation's migration to automobiles and the suburbs. I may contribute more in the future. Best regards

--Avenueb 02:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I can back everything said by Pam Woodard. I was not only there during these events, I was a member of the band, Yabu, that won that competition and I witnessed the aftermath. I am also Pam's cousin and she has been an upstanding citizen and a grade A person her entire life. I was a direct witness and casualty of the foremention 1971 riots. I held the school door open at NFA for the riot police, who were running toward a disturbance outside, when that last cop going through the door proceeded to beat me for no reason. My mother Marion Smith, my pastor Rev. Frank E. Jones and others raced to the high school to assess my condition. When they arrived, I was in a crowd of well armed black students, facing off with a crowd of white students and both sides were held back by a long line of riot equipped police. The black crowd was pushed east toward lower Newburgh. I slipped out of the crowd because I no longer lived down there. I had to return to the school to catch my bus home but before I could, a couple of car loads of white students stopped and came toward us with bats and chains. There were 12 armed white male students and 5 of us black students, including to tough females. One brother (Larry Joe Ramsey) went crazy and jumped on all twelve at once, but the police broke it all up pretty quickly. Thank God! I also saw my girl chewed up by a police dog while she stood around the school like everyone else. Lots of sick memories had to be forgiven and forgotten.

The bottom line message in all of what I just said was that in 1971, a lot of young white people were still trying to treat blacks with no respect. Newburgh has always had a reputation for having areas of town that were the roughest and most dangerous places to live anywhere and with that mentality in most black sections of Newburgh, disrespect was not tolerated. Consequently, black people were finally aware they had the force to demand and get the respect that the U.S. Constitution said they had all along. And they got it! Good Work Couz!

Mic Smith 6/20/07 MKSmith777 04:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Eyes Fronty

Was this home to the Frontenac? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 17:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Yes - it was manufactured in Newburgh from 1906 to 1913 and was basically a hand-built luxury car. The manufacturer's name was Abendroth & Root. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.16.209.253 (talk) 23:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)