Talk:New Pony

New Pony has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 6, 2022. (Reviewed version).

A fact from New Pony appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 June 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Bob Dylan's backing singers on "New Pony" included both his then-girlfriend and his future wife?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/New Pony.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:New Pony/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ErnestKrause (talk · contribs) 15:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review GAN for current Editor Drive request. This may a take a day or two. To get started, have you thought about including a possible image in the short Covers section of the article, since there's only one image in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General review comments

(1) Lead section sentence needs a conjunction 'and' added: "...such as Son House's "Black Pony Blues" Charley Patton's track "Pony Blues.""

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) Is the song saying that the old pony "Lucifer" is being replaced by a 'new pony'? If that's the case, then the article should make some mention of it, possibly also reflect it in the lead section. There is also the possible metaphor of a 'broken' leg pointing to a broken relationship, that is, a break-up song.

I don't think we can be sure whether Lucifer is the new pony and/or "Miss X". Oliver Trager (in Keys to the Rain) writes "Dylan's 'New Pony' (a filly conveniently named Lucifer)...". Heylin, in what seems to one of his rather ungrounded speculations in Still On The Road, wrote that Dylan called the song "New Pony" "lest it was burdened down by the many 'Pony Blues' that come before". I don't recall any of the books talking about the broken leg metaphor, but happy to look into this if you have a source to point me to. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) Is this a 'live' version at Paris Soundcheck here: [1]. This version also has an extra verse included which might be mentioned in this article:

Well now its early in the morning, I see your shadow in the door

Early in the morning, I see your shadow in the door

Now i dont have to ask nobody

I know what you came here for.

Amended to include this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(4) It might be worth looking at splitting the opening section to separate out "Lyrics and interpretation" from your current "Background, recording and interpretation". That would give more room to decide if its a break-up song with a new pony, that is, new girlfriend coming into his life, etc. The standard lyrics can be found on lyricsmode.com or elsewhere on the net.

Done. Let me know if you have further feedback on this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) Recording section. There is an electric guitar solo mid-way through the song. Is this worth covering, was it Dylan playing his electric guitar? Also, there is the closing sax solo which might be mentioned here.

Added the sax solo in the critical reception section. (That these were overdubs is already mentioned in Background and recording).BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) Phrase 'that he had mixed in, and changed, different musical genres" may look better without the commas inserted.

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(7) Soundcheck version in Paris seems to have an extra verse in it. See above comment.

As per earlier comment. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(8) 42-word sentences generally should be broken up into 2 sentences due to length: "Keith Phipps and Steven Hayden described "New Pony" as "perhaps Dylan's dirtiest sex song," while Nigel Williamson admired the track's "deliciously lustful carnality" and Mike Daly in The Age felt that the "thinly disguised eroticism" was part of an enjoyable "gutsy blues-rock"." It seems too long as a single sentence.

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(9) There is a good phto of Jerry Scheff on his Wikipedia page which might look good in the Personal section with a new caption.

Added pictures of Scheff and Hall. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(10) Optionally consider doing an image of Larkin Poe in the Covers section, if you decide you will not include the Jerry Scheff photo in the Personnel section.

See above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(11) The repetition of the back-up chorus "How much longer" makes the main topic of the song's lyrics even more explicit and might be covered in a new Lyrics section if you take that approach mentioned above.

Added some relevant content. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look in once in a while to see if there are any updates or if there are any questions for clarification of my comments. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC) (9)[reply]

Hi ErnestKrause. Thanks for the review. All of the suggestions seem helpful and constructive, and I've made a start on the straightforward ones. The alternate lyrics lead into a bit of a rabbithole. Two different versions are printed in The Lyrics: Since 1962, one of which has the "(How much longer)"s that at least one commentator notes are missing from the earlier published lyrics. The other version in that book is the "shadow on the door" version, but apparently without any explanatory notes. (For other songs, there are usually notes about date played live, alternate takes etc.) I don't own the book (it was a limited edition, and copies go for about £450) but I'll have a look at the British Library's copy in the next few days in case I missed something. There is almost certainly a reliable source that talks about the soundcheck version, so, again, give me a couple days to look into that. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:11, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its looking fairly good so far; I'll look forward to seeing the "How much longer" chorus treated in the article and then continue with comments as needed. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's ready for another look, ErnestKrause. I've responded to your comments above. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second set of comments

(1) "I had a pony, her name was Lucifer"; it might be worth saying something in parenthesis like "(repeat twice)" for the opening verse.

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) Regarding if "Lucifer" is the old pony being replaced by the new pony, then there is the comment of your reviewer in the article stating, "may be mostly a question about how much longer you will be satisfied with your new pony-woman and not have to shoot her to put her out of her misery before you can get some other new pony". That means that there is a recognition that there is "some other new pony" type of cycle going on in the lyrics. Also, 'Lucifer' is not mentioned again in the song after the first stanza. This seems to support that 'Lucifer' may have been changed over for "some other new pony".

(3) I'm inclined to go with you on "She broke her leg" probably metaphorically meaning something more akin to his girlfriend no longer being responsive to his boyfriend needs.

(4) Regarding 'Lucifer' again, the lyrics Dylan uses should be noted for being in the past tense: "I swear it hurt me more...". Its as if Dylan is saying, metaphorically, that he already completed the break-up and that if hurt him emotionally. Then the 'new pony' comes on the scene in the next verses.

Which source(s) is this from? I looked in a few but didn't see this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lyrics I quoted are directly from the song: "I swear it hurt me more..." appears to indicate something that had already hurt him. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but to comply with WP:OR, a reliable source is needed before we can consider including this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) Wording at this point looks like it may need a second look since the current version says: "the backing singers include Dylan's both Dylans's girlfriend at the time, Springs...". That phrase here "Dylan's both Dylan's..." looks like it can be simplified.

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) Throughout the article, I'm not sure if you need all of those paragraph breaks you apply in most all the sections. Some of your short back-to-back paragraphs can be combined easily into one paragraph. Less paragraph breaks might look better.

Combined several paragraphs. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(7) New images in personal section look pretty good. I'm not sure if they look better stacked vertically or horizontally (using multiple images templates). You can decide whichever one you prefer.

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(8) Is it worth noting the length of the two solos in the song, how many seconds. Also, possibly mention that the sax solo seems to be used as what sounds like an outro at the end of the song in the version I heard.

Which source(s) is this from? I definitely haven't seen it in the sources I've read. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The text in the article already identifies the two solos and the artists; is it worth indicating how many seconds of the song each of them takes up. I leave this for you to decide. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that to do this would be WP:OR. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those new edits look pretty good. After you take a look at these new comments, then I'll look in to see if any issues remain. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, ErnestKrause. I wan't sure if any changes were expeceted on points 2 and 3. Replies to the other points are above. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Week-end comments

(1) That new multi-image looks improved. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks for the suggestion. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) This quote appears to be in the Composition section: "may be mostly a question about how much longer you will be satisfied with your new pony-woman and not have to shoot her to put her out of her misery before you can get some other new pony". Somehow the old-pony to new-pony cycle might use another word or two to describe it in this section. Does the listener to the song actually hear the process go one full cycle of an old girlfreind replaced by a new one having already arrived, or, is it all about his current love interest "Lucifer" going into the final phases before replacement? Somehow it would be nice to see this resolved in some way since the above comment quoted recognizes this full cycle of new girlfriend arrival-departure-replacement. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we have any neat closure of this type from the sources, unfortunately, and we need to WP:STICKTOSOURCE. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) No closing double quote mark after at the end of the quote: "with Bob barking the vocal...". Closing double quote mark needed. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(4) Your phrase ""New Pony" superficially concerns a pony..." might look better as ""New Pony" ostensively concerns a pony...". ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) Your phrase "The backing singers sing "How much longer?" a number of times", could add more stress on this here since the backup singers sings nothing but this three word refrain over and over again. It seems more than a 'number of times' since they sing nothing else but these words. For example, "The backup singers support the delivery of Dylan's singing of the entire song by repeating the same refrain "How much longer" from the start to the end of the song," or something like that. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC) Pending. (I think Gray has something in Song and Dance Man about the refrain.)[reply]

I've marked it as optional, though it would be nice to bring into the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) Otherwise, it looks nearly done. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comments: Item #5 is optional. The article looks much improved in its narrative and its presentation of the material. The multi-image format does alot for the personnel section. Promoting article. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:08, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that Bob Dylan's backing singers on "New Pony" ' included both his then-girlfriend and his future wife? Source: Yaffe, David (2011). Like a Complete Unknown. New Haven: Yale University Press. pp. 79–80.
- ALT1: ... that Bob Dylan's "New Pony" has been described by reviewers as probably his "dirtiest sex song" and also as a "signpost" for his Christian albums? Source: "perhaps Dylan's dirtiest sex song": Phipps, Keith; Hyden, Steven (May 31, 2012). "A guide to Bob Dylan, from the '60s to now". AV Club link; "the gospel elements found throughout ... are clear signposts of what would be coming in the Born Again trilogy of albums coming next": Shields, Chris (December 26, 2015). "Bob Dylan's 'Street Legal" a lively, satisfying album". St. Cloud Times link
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Times Square Theater
- Comment: Suggestions for ALTs are welcome.

Improved to Good Article status by BennyOnTheLoose (talk). Self-nominated at 00:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Substantial article, meeting of GA criteria implicates DYK pass. Article was nominated within 7 days of passing GAR. QPQ has been completed. Only pings on Earwigs are for properly attributed song lyrics. Hooks are interesting, cited, and short enough for DYK; AGF on offline source. I think ALT0 is the more interesting of the two. Morgan695 (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]