Talk:New Jersey State Youth Orchestra

The page, newly created, just generated some flags as follows: "The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines for companies and organizations. (May 2019)"

"This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, potentially preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. (May 2019)"

With respect to notability, this is the longest-running youth orchestra program in New Jersey, and the only one run entirely by community volunteers. Its director was just recognized with an external award. Not sure why those facts don't rise to the published the standard for notability, especially when you compare it with, say, the similarly-named yet slightly younger New Jersey Youth Symphony, a page that has existed for many years and has only one reference. Clearly there is more information that could be added such as the number of students served, the number of student performance groups, and so forth, but the page is just getting started.

As far as relying on sources too closely associated with the subject, see above. Also note that most of the references are not coming from the NJSYO (such as the link to the Monmouth Arts Council).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Qflib (talk • contribs)

@Qflib: The sources offered are not appropriate for establishing that this organization meets the organization notability guidelines written at WP:ORG. Its own website, press releases, basic announcements, and brief mentions do not establish notability. What is needed are independent reliable sources that have chosen on their own to give significant coverage to this orchestra. 331dot (talk) 14:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In what sense is the Asbury Park Press not an independent source? It's a major newspaper, part of the Gannet group. I don't follow. KeeYou Flib (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The director getting an award might merit the director themselves an article, but not this orchestra specifically. 331dot (talk) 14:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that the director received the award was for his work leading the NJSYO. KeeYou Flib (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of that; my comment stands. If the orchestra is only notable because its director won an award, then it is the director that is notable. 331dot (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The organization is not only notable because its music director won an award. That's just one of several reasons why it's notable. It's notable or having provided thousands of students with music education. It's notable for (like wikipedia) being run entirely by volunteers, which is extraordinarily unusual for an arts organization (they are almost always run by a paid staff). It's notable for the prominent musicians who began their careers in music education with the NJSYO. KeeYou Flib (talk) 21:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing out the article on the symphony, which indeed has the same issues. I have tagged it; please see WP:OSE. As this is a volunteer project, it is possible for inappropriate articles to go undetected, even for years. This is why other similar articles existing does not automatically mean yours gets to exist as well. 331dot (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so does this mean you'll also wipe out the List of youth orchestras in the United States? I mean, where does it end? Respectfully - and I do mean respectfully- this policy seems to tend to conflate notability with notoriety. Just my opinion. KeeYou Flib (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't examined every article on a youth orchestra, and the odds are I don't have time for such an endeavor. I'm only dealing with the article in front of me. It certainly could be that few if any youth orchestras merit articles here, I don't know. I've explained how any organization can merit an article- though the only amendment I would make to that would be that the notability guidelines for musical groups would seem to be controlling here and not those for organizations. If this orchestra meets one of the listed criteria for a notable music group, it would merit an article. 331dot (talk) 16:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that a youth orchestra organization is not a "music group," but rather a music education organization - very much like a school, except part-time and dedicated to music instruction. KeeYou Flib (talk) 17:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, so we would be back to WP:ORG. 331dot (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. So as per WP:ORG - "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." This organization has taught students for 40 years, with average enrollments of more than 150 students per year, so about 40*150 = 6000 students have participated in this program. That seems to me to be a significant effect on culture, entertainment, and education, and so I believe this organization meets the standard.

That's fine, all that is needed are independent reliable sources that support those things. I believe what you say, but everything in the article must be verifiable to a source. Some things can be sourced to primary sources, like attendance numbers and personnel, but notability can only be shown with independent sources. 331dot (talk) 21:57, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]