Talk:Nevada State Route 447

Washoe County Route 447 at Gerlach

There have been a few rounds going on here where a new user has posted info about Nevada State Route 447 turning into Washoe County Route 447 at Gerlach. But without citations, of course that disappeared in typical Wikipedia fashion.

The user who has been trying to contribute that information is my nephew from Reno. I offered to help him collect the right documentation to satisfy the Wikipedian culture. And then I'm sure he'll be more satisfied with the result too.

Let me start with he actually is correct about the signs. I've visited Black Rock 35 times. I can confirm the highway in Gerlach is indeed signed as the end of Nevada State Route 447 and beginning of Washoe County Route 447 on the same signpost. I've seen it more than enough times that I took it for granted. So please go with us that the problem is getting the documentation and how to present it, not a matter of whether the road is actually signed that way.

Unfortunately, Washoe County's web site is a dearth of info on the topic. So I'm thinking that photos of the signs will be a good place to start to document this. I found a useful hint about this in oGoogle Maps directions through Gerlach showing Hwy 447 going to the California state line. NavTeq actually drives the routes shown in their data - so you can take that as an indication that they observed signs saying 447 all the way to the border.

So that should be useful for anyone who doubted this. It isn't useful as a citation though. I was amused by the comment from an editor from Texas who said Nevada doesn't use this kind of County Route signage. Apparently Washoe County does. Sometimes you need to actually go see a place to know for sure.

File:CR447.gif

So, now that the picture is clearer, let's hear any new suggestions anyone has based on this. Also, I'll help him upload a new shield image to Commons instead of WP. (His first version of it is shown at the right.) I've already got a handful of images up on Commons. But any suggestions from the roadgeeks about how you'd prefer to see that image re-done will be accepted. My only edits on highway pages in this area so far have been to add Nevada State Route 447 and others at Black Rock to the Category:Black Rock Desert category which I created. (I also added an aerial photo to I-580 in California.)

So that's the story... mentoring a new Wikipedian. Ikluft (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been working on an expansion. For now I have avoided the issue. Washoe County's website confirms the road is under county mantanence, but I also cannot find an "official" source for it being CR447. I hope to work on getting NV shields this week. There are some help pages (but not that great) on how to make road shield, (using correct fonts etc.) here: Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Shields/Design

Davemeistermoab (talk) 06:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting... The Google Maps directions linked above don't explicitly state that the route is Washoe CR 447--they say it is SR 447, though. Mapquest gives the same result. This may be a lack of updated data, since SR 447 actually did follow this routing to the California State Line at one time in the past.

I'll admit, I may have been one of the editors to jump on the whole CR 447 issue. I haven't been out there to check on the existence of the county route myself. My experience has often been seeing a Google Map mark a road as a county route (in symbolic or plain street name form), only to find no evidence of such in the field. With the exception of non-standard county shields used on Clark County 215 in Las Vegas, I have never seen a county route shield used anywhere in Nevada, nor have I seen a picture of one.

If the highway is marked and maintained as CR 447, it could probably be included here. It would be a historical routing of SR 447, not to mention the pre-1978 predecessor of the highway towards Cedarville, CA (SR 81). --Ljthefro (talk) 08:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've only had one trip up to Black Rock so far this year, and didn't think to stop and take a picture of the sign. It's there. I'll try to remember for the next trip there in a few weeks. Ikluft (talk) 22:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

And a note about the map data... you can tell whose data that Google, MapQuest and others are using by the copyright messages on the map image. It's part of the agreement for use of the data. Usually they all get their data from Navteq, TeleAtlas or a few others. Those providers buy the GIS data from the local government and then use various methods (verifying against satellite imagery or actually driving the road) to improve it to navigation quality. Depending on the local government, data is already varying quality and may take time to update. Ikluft (talk) 22:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait...where at Washoe County's website does it state that the road is under county maintenance? If they have a source that says 447 is maintained by the county as CR 447, that would seem pretty authoritative to me. All I could find on their site was maps of outlying areas of the county. One of those maps shows the road itself without a route marker--that map is actually a scan of an Official Highway Map of Nevada published by NDOT (judging from the style, it was a late 1990s to present version of the map). --Ljthefro (talk) 10:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem. The county just doesn't post enough about the subject on its web site. They're not the first to have that problem. Someone else also expressed doubt that it would be signed as "end NV447" and "begin CR447" - but that's how it is signed in Gerlach. A photo will be enough to answer the question. Please be patient. It isn't trivial to just go there. And we have to wait for the Burning Man crowds to clear out anyway. Besides, there is no deadline anyway. Ikluft (talk) 23:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply a hurry or anything. My previous post was a reaction to a previous statement by Davemeistermoab in which he seemed to indicate there was some definitive information on Washoe County's website about the route being maintained by the county. Without the ability to verify, the issue at hand can't be settled for certain. A picture of a county route sign would be helpful for this, but I realize that it may be some time before someone can snap a pic and upload it--I understand that it's not a trivial matter, given the remoteness of the area (heck, I live not too far away (Reno) and haven't had a chance to investigate it myself).

Once we get some verification on the county route status, we can add some info. What is reported to be CR 447 was fomerly SR 447. According to NDOT's 1978-79 Official Map [1], prior to the 1970s mass renumbering of NV state routes, that same stretch of highway was designated SR 81. So there's plenty of information to write about. But until further evidence of the county route can be presented, I'll leave the issue alone. --Ljthefro (talk) 06:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Photos of CR447 signs in Gerlach

sign marking beginning of Washoe County Route 447 in Gerlach, NV

sign marking end of CR447 and beginning of SR 447 in Gerlach, NV

OK, I have the long-awaited photos showing there are indeed signs for Washoe County Route 447 in Gerlach past the end of Nevada State Route 447. The first picture shows the beginning of CR447 but is apparently missing the sign marking the end of SR447. There is an SR447 mile marker visible though. Considering this was less than a week after the end of Burning Man, I suspect one of the 50,000 attendees went home with it as a souvenir. However, the second photo (other side of the street) has both signs for end CR447 and begin SR447. Ikluft (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking these pictures and posting them here. That puts the CR 447 issue to rest. I'll work on some expansion of this article when I get a chance.

So this is the first signed county route I've ever seen in Nevada (except the non-standard Clark County 215 marker). Did you happen to see if any other county route markers were posted in the area? --Ljthefro (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, do you happen to remember the closest cross-street to the sign location? --Ljthefro (talk) 00:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For the second picture I was parked across the street from Bruno's Restaurant, which is at 40.652167°N 119.353889°W / 40.652167; -119.353889. According to the map the cross street is Beechnut Ct. The signs are across the street from each other, just to the northeast of the intersection. I took Hwy 34 to the playa so I didn't follow 447 beyond Gerlach. Ikluft (talk) 00:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

More on the CR 447 issue

I've done a bit more research on this issue. Here's what I've found:

• Google Maps now has street views way out here, at least on 447. After looking through the views for a while I found the following:
  • End SR 447/Begin CR 447 signs are posted in Gerlach as pictured above.
  • Northbound at the "Y" junction of 447 and 34 is a non-standard route sign assembly. It shows SR 447 to the left and CR 34 (as a white circle on a black square) to the right.
  • Northbound, what appears to be another SR 447 shield north of the junction.
  • Mileposts north of the route end seem to continue the numbering from the state route. However, they are not standard NDOT style mileposts, and may have been placed by the county.
• NDOT now has a Milepost Book on their website. The overview map of the north half of Washoe County on page 28 shows County Routes 447, 34, and 8A (although the paved and non-paved notations are reversed).
• NDOT's 2008 area map of Gerlach shows the distinct end of SR 447 in Gerlach. North of Gerlach, the former state route alignment is labeled as "Route 447". (Old State Route 34 is labeled similarly.)

So all this leads me to believe that Route 447 is maintained by the county north of SR 447, and that the CR shields were probably placed by NDOT. It is probably worth expanding on CR 447. Now, the issue is how to integrate both 447 routes, and the historical routings of SR 34 and 81. --Ljthefro (talk) 02:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I went to Gerlack a couple of weeks ago. I took photos of the area, including of the 447/34 junction you mention. I also have a picture of a milepost on CR34. It specifically says "Washoe County Route" on the milepost. I've planned to upload them to wikipedia for some time now, just been busy with other projects. Keep nagging me. I'll do it. Unfortunately I have to leave now or I'd do it. =-)Dave (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

More evidence

After searching a long time on the Washoe County website I found a brief statement about pavement costs for CR 447 and CR 34. This a small and settle acknowledgement of the existence of CR 447 by the county on there website. The report can be found here: Department of Public Works Budget Presentation FY 2008‐2009, the statement is on page 14. -Kluft (talk) 00:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh wow, Thanks for reminding me of this. I completely forgot. I've uploaded the promised picture and put a thumbnail above. I can also upload the milepost that says "Washoe County Route 34 if you REALLY want it =-) .Dave (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I was just going to ask you about this, Dave. I wouldn't mind seeing that milepost pic uploaded... ;-) --LJ (talk) 03:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Picture of a milepost, now THAT's a roadgeek. =-) Dave (talk) 03:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Moving Forward

So now what do we do? Here's my proposal, please advise

• Have a single article, and have County Route 447 (Washoe County) redirect here.
• Have both county and state shields in the infobox.
• Have the lead state that Nevada State Route 447 and Washoe County Route 447 together form a contiguous highway from SparksWadsworth to the state line near Cedarville, California, with the changeover at Gerlach. Lead should also state that the state maintained portion was part of NV SR 34 prior to the great renumbering. (corrected by LJ (talk) 05:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC))

The only thing we don't have a source for is where is the northern terminus of the county maintained portion. LJ, did you do enough google street-view snooping to determine where the mileposts for CR 447 stop?

We could implement my ideas above but intentionally leave the northern terminus vague (i.e. just say "near Cedarville"), until a better source is found. Or we could continue to deny Washoe 447's existence until more sources are found. Personally, I think we've found what we're going to find, and should probably proceed with what we have.Dave (talk) 04:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My nephew (who provided "More Evidence" above) made a start on an article for Washoe County Route 447 2 years ago. There's some content still in the history from before other editors stomped it into a redirect. Ikluft (talk) 04:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think these ideas will work out okay. There's a lot of history/route number stuff to sort out with this article.

I didn't follow the street view more than a couple of miles from the 447/34 junction north of Gerlach...only far enough to find a milepost that I could read clearly. The NDOT milepost book (linked above) seems to indicate that CR 447 follows former SR 447 all the way to the NV/CA state line, but I don't know how authoritative that is. I have no reason to believe the county would terminate the route somewhere in between Gerlach and the state line...although NDOT ends routes in random places all the time. --LJ (talk) 05:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree the northern terminus is almost certainly the state line - that info can be filled in as refs are found or photos are taken. I'd suggest reintroducing the CR447 info as a section of the SR447 article until we have enough refs that a separate CR447 article wouldn't be AfD fodder. Ikluft (talk) 05:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Even if Washoe County were to publish a route log, I would argue that the two 447's should be combined into a single article. IMO they are closely related to the point that separate articles would be wasteful if not redundant. I'll throw something together if nobody objects.Dave (talk) 05:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't think a CR 447 article by itself would be overly notable, except for the fact that it is formerly SR 447 and other pre-1976 renumbering routes (SR 81, 8A(?)). Combining them better follows the USRD Notability guidelines.

Dave, I've got no objections if you want to take on the expansion, especially since I've never been out there. --LJ (talk) 05:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

No objections. The USRD guidelines do help point out where consensus has already been reached about this. Ikluft (talk) 07:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Usually when I take CR447, I make a left turn at Smoke Creek Desert Road and on to Susanville. I looked through my photos from Stratofox's search and recovery effort for the CSXT space rocket's booster in 2004. (See http://www.stratofox.org/pics/csxt-booster-2004/ ) We took CR447 up to Squaw Valley Reservoir and then followed dirt roads north up Crutcher Canyon. On the Aug 15 search or Nov 26 recovery expeditions, I didn't take any photos until we got off the paved road. If anyone else's pictures turn up with the road, I'll ask them if they want to donate a copy to Wikipedia. We'll see... when you're looking for a rocket booster for display at the Smithsonian, I'm sure you can understand that the county road isn't the main photography objective. Ikluft (talk) 07:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Updated

I applied the facts of SR/CR 447 to the article and the sources to back it up. Hope you like It! Please send any questions to me. The info in this article should not contain any falsehood, I spent a while on this one. Thanks to those who did the field work (photos). -Kluft (talk) 06:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

CR 447 shield on Commons

I've recently figured out how to make route shields using templates provided by WP:USRD's Shields Task Force. I've uploaded a new CR 447 shield to Commons (image:Washoe County Route 447 NV.svg, pictured at right). The new version follows the MUTCD design standards, and the file itself is named consistently with other CR shields on Commons. --LJ (talk) 20:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well let's give it a test =-). Dave (talk) 20:29, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

If there's no issues with the new shield, I'll nominate the old CR 447 graphic for deletion (assuming there's no objections). --LJ (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I thought the rule was that SVG is preferred, except when the shield is copyrighted, and we have to restrict the rendering size to comply with fair use. Also, I've uploaded a new pic for the article File:NV447 near Empire Nevada.JPG. I'll start work on expanding the article, but as others are working to, go ahead and do whatever if I don't get around to it.Dave (talk) 01:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, SVG is preferred over GIF for shields. I just didn't want to be too hasty...I wanted to make sure the new one was okay for other users--this was my first attempt at making a shield. It appears to be fine, so I've nominated the old one for deletion (discussion here). Thanks for the new pic, Dave. I'm not sure that I'll work too much on this (haven't been in an editing mood lately), but will continue to watch the page and tweak as needed. --LJ (talk) 06:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, Looking at the history of the map JA created for the article, in an earlier revision he had the county portion highlighted in red also. I asked his permission, and he approved, to revert to this version if we still decide to have a combined article about the 447's (which I think is the best option). Dave (talk) 06:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. --LJ (talk) 07:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

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